The Series-Power Thread

[Death Knight]

Ive thought for a while that jeff's game series all had streaks of ridiculously powerful characters in the game.

 

-In avernum, a party of 4 took on almost impossible odds and still managed to defeat the enemy

 

-In geneforge's games, the main character had power that was almost to immense to create enough creations to take down armies of people, creations and forces. This was moreso than the avernum series as the creations that you could create were almost akin to dragons and beasts of legend.

 

-In avadon you are on geneforges scale where one time in the game, you with a party of 3, took down an entire nation singlehandedly. Thats pretty epic.

 

What this thread is about is what in your eyes, do you think is the most powerful main character (or characters) ?

 

-The avernum series

-The geneforge series

-The avadon series

 

In my opinion, while avernum was an immensely powerful group of people, you didnt get the same amount of immense power that avadon or say geneforge got. In avadon, people shudder at the name and even dragons got a little scared when thinking about angering the main character.

 

However, geneforge was insane too as you can take out waves of people/creations and most regular people were scared to death of shapers as it stands.

 

This thread is purely subjective. I dont expect there to be one answer. If you have a view about which is the most insanely powerful group of adventures, state why.

 

I still think it is insane with some of the powerful events that your main character (characters) had to get through and as i havent completed all games, more views would be cool

[Jerakeen]

In Avadon you only get to take down Carsta'Arl because the defenders let you make your way through the castle, taking them out a few at a time. If they stood together, you wouldn't stand a chance. This kind of thing may be necessary for the game, but for me it breaks immersion in the story. Dragons, fine. Magic, fine. Canny and ruthless leader failing to employ the most elementary defensive measures, yeah right.

 

Also in Avadon, a number of extremely difficult fights, including some encounters in the Beraza Deep woods, demonstrate that you are not necessarily the most powerful force in the Pact. Unless of course, you are.

 

I notice you left BoA out of your list, which is fair as it's not technically a series, but there's no question that it's possible to take a party or a singleton to insane heights of power. Presumably the same is true of Exile.

[Actaeon]

I never made it very far in Avadon, so I'm afraid I'm not very good using it in comparison. However, I suppose I would call the Geneforge characters most powerful. They (because it's different each game) are individuals, not a party, and are generally significantly more augmented than their fellows. And while you often tip the scales in the Avernum games, you don't often match yourself against Starrus or Erika or any of the top brass directly. Usually, by the end of a Geneforge game, you've pretty much established yourself as the most powerful individual... period. (Particularly in the last one)

 

That said, in actual terms of game mechanics, a singleton Avernite (as of AEftP and G5) would probably be able to defeat a Geneforge character, due to their more diverse spell system (with a tonne of area spells for downing creations) and the complication of essence.

[Death Knight]

I didnt actually think of that regarding avadon. I would say that even if you take into effect the large amount of power given in both avadon and avernum, the geneforge player character technically has almost unlimited power. Even if you just look at the standard char, a shaper with a bunch of drayks or other insane creations, is not something to take lightly. As was mentioned, geneforge 5 had the player as almost like a god.

[Alorael at Large]

Mechanically speaking, your party can destroy anything and everything by the end of the game, regardless of series. That's just how Spiderweb games are. It's the point!

 

In Avadon, you're personally powerful, but not on a national scale. Most of what gets people scared isn't you, but what you represent and who's behind you. Yes, at the end you can try to take down Avadon single-handedly... but a lot of the groundwork has been done for you, and you still aren't really on your own, just the last and biggest cog in the rebellion.

 

In Avernum, your party fights dragons, wizards, and emperors. You're tough. But you're not all-powerful, as far as plot is concerned, and the scale of your enemies matches. You can't take on the might of the Empire when you kill Hawthorne, just strike and run. You can be taken down by the soldiers of Fort Emergence or Blackcrag. You're still just on the tough end of human.

 

In Geneforge, you're not. Shapers are powerful, and you scare shapers. The games revolve around the artifact that makes supercharged people. It's most noticeable at the end of G1, which I've finally played, but it's the theme of the series: single individuals can become terribly dangerous and destructive. It can take a truce between enemies to take you down, and it takes a kind of tacit cease-fire to deal with Monarch in G4.

 

—Alorael, who would say that Avadon's PC is, in fact, the least personally powerful. Not based on anything large, but rather on the fact that Avernum is all about rugged individualism, and Avadon is all about being plugged into the machine.

[Earth]

There are alot powerful enemies on Avadon: Zephyrine, Mor's apprentice (celebrates 4th of july every round), Carsta's wife, Carsta, Zhossa, Morizkiri, enemy on Shima's quest, Titan's boss (thx to warwolves), ghost/whatever on Berazza Woods, etc.

 

Avernum 5 had those hunt this and that monster and bring samples back and of boss of the pit and that shade there and few others.

 

A6 had high health Sliths and others.

 

A4 had its own mini-bosses.

 

Each game has had its own big baddies and very big baddies and very very big baddies but always player (with single or party) somehow manages to kill those (with skill or simply luck).

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I'm with Alorael on Geneforge having the strongest PCs. The narration and dialogue really hammer home the point that every Shaper is an army. Shapers have access to just as much magic and combat power as non-Shapers, but they have access to an additional power which the plot makes out to be better than the former two. By comparison, Avernum and Avadon characters would rate as powerful outsiders: no slouches, to be sure, even late game boss material in some cases (Bennhold from G5 comes to mind), but still weaker than Shapers of comparable skill and experience.

 

As for the strongest single character, that would be the G1 PC augmented by the Geneforge. Both plot and mechanics (+8 to all primary stats!?) imply that this augmentation makes the PC truly superhuman, even compared to other Shapers. The runner up would probably be the G5 character, who reaches a higher level than characters in previous games, does the most impressive things (assassinating Ghaldring, or a large part of the Shaper council), and seems to have been enhanced a great deal with canisters and/or a Geneforge even before all the canisters s/he can use in the game.

 

In comparing power levels between Avernum and Avadon, I think we have to distinguish between A1-3 and A4-6. A1-3 characters are more the legendary hero types: they fight against nastier enemies (compare the prevalence of high level monsters like haakai, gazers, dragons, etc.), and more dangerous villains (compare Dorikas or the slith triad with Garzahd or Rentar-Ihrno). Both groups start out with very little, but the A1-3 PCs make more out of it. Both A4-6 and Avadon characters are more 'plugged into the system' than characters in A1-3 (Avadon somewhat more so), but Avadon is known for picking those with the very most talent and potential to serve it, so I'm inclined to give it to Avadon.

 

All in all, I'd rank power as follows:

1. Geneforge series.

2. Avernum 1-3.

3. Avadon.

4. Avernum 4-6.

[Actaeon]

Geneforge seems like the clear winner here, practically speaking. I'm still curious, though, how a duel between two similarly leveled characters in-game would go. Obviously that would take some heavy coding, but it would be a treat.

[Acky]

Mechanics wise I would have to say that an Avernum party would have the most power, from any point of the series. Presuming we're talking about the standard fantasy set up of Warrior, Rogue, Mage, and Priest, each character would ideally have access to a specific role, that put togethor, could definitely defeat a Geneforge Shaper, even with a full squad of creations. It really comes down to who gets the bigger guns, and while a single Geneforge character has access to more then 1 Avernum adventurer, 4 Avernum characters have more pooled power then 1 Geneforge person. Again, it's impossible to say for certain because the combat systems are different.

 

As for plot wise, I think the obvious winner would be Geneforge. Any one who plays Geneforge should take that the amount of power they get to use are for balencing purposes; basically the reason why Geneforge PC's can't make creations in combat or have more then 7. The series has shown that a single shaper can take a lot down with him/her.

 

Quote:

In Avadon, you're personally powerful, but not on a national scale. Most of what gets people scared isn't you, but what you represent and who's behind you. Yes, at the end you can try to take down Avadon single-handedly... but a lot of the groundwork has been done for you, and you still aren't really on your own, just the last and biggest cog in the rebellion.

 

I'm inclined to agree. Throughout my playthrough of Avadon I was getting a very distinctly feeling of "I'm just another piece on the table," something I've never thought in Geneforge or Avernum. In the latter two games I (fondly) felt like I was the deciding factor and that by the end of the game, I'm equal to everyone else or above them, more Geneforge then Avernum. That's the not case for Avadon, at least for me. Have to say, I liked the change of perspective.

[Death Knight]

The avernum series probably would be the one group that would have a shot at taking a pc of the geneforge series but its still tough. I mean, a shaper with a group of eyebeasts against what, a slith, nephil and 2 humans.

 

I think that avadon would have the least chance when it comes down to power.

[Actaeon]

I think Kyshakks might be a better anti-Avernum team.

[Randomizer]

Not with curing elixirs to counteract their best attack.

 

Besides control foe is the best attack for both, but Avernites can counteract it on their side.

[Actaeon]

Are we assuming G5 vs A6?

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Are we assuming G5 vs A6?

well if we consider a6 vs. g5, its actually not as easy to tell.

1-dualwielding broadswordsman,

2-slith spearman/priest that when not buffing, is lancing anything

3-nephil archer/mage that when not casting is shooting anything.

4-human mage/priest that can complement the other chars

Thats just a mediocre party, im sure someone can make an even more overpowered one with more thought. It doesnt seem that avadon can compete unless they go against avernum's team and even then, i dont know. God im such a nerd

[Earth]

Avernum party would mob floor with Avadon party (even at 3 vs 3) due Avernum casters can throw spells freely w/o cooldown.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Earth Empires

Avernum party would mob floor with Avadon party (even at 3 vs 3) due Avernum casters can throw spells freely w/o cooldown.

Even having a five person party in Avadon wouldn't bode well against any given party from Avernum. The spells are far more underpowered in Avadon, and the warriors are probably only equal. Even with a slight numerical edge (amplified even more by the shaman) buffing, summoning, and generally superior magic would wipe the floor with the warriors from Avadon. A similar situation would happen with Avadon versus Geneforge - superior magic in the form of Shaping or general battle magic would overpower Avadon.

Which Nethergate party would be better for fighting against other series - Romans or Celts?

[nikki.]

Celts, without a doubt. As long as we're talking Nethergate, and not Nethergate: Resurrection.

 

Hero of Old, anybody?

[Actaeon]

I guess we did neglect Nethergate. Anything from Richard White that should be entered into consideration?

[Alorael at Large]

Divine Warrior in Avernum gives Hero of Old a run for its money, but I think eventually crystal wands give Nethergate parties a little leg up.

 

—Alorael, who's not really sure what RW has to offer. Reincarnating chess pieces don't quite seem fitting, and spaceships aren't on the right scale. Shipwrecked sailors just aren't going to do much against unstoppable killing machines.