If I join the Trakovites do I have to give up shaping?[G5]

[Pyrrhus]

Healing is included under shaping skills though..... just saying

[Alorael at Large]

And it's just as justifiable to say that shapers are supposed to be able to care for their creations, and therefore learn healing. Or that healing requires knowledge of how organs and tissues work, and so does shaping, so being trained in one makes learning the other easier.

 

—Alorael, who isn't even sure using the Shapers in general as examples of living by Shaper ideology works. They're less invested in their standards than they are in crushing the rebels. Again, Alwan is unusual in that he believes in the laws as well as being one of the lawmakers.

[Pyrrhus]

Bandages do heal your character slightly....

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: Lord_Shaper

No. If you look at the way the canisters/geneforge/drakon lunatics work, they don't - or rarely - alter the body. It is the mind, the brain, that they alter, warping it into insanity. Healing merely creates and attaches flesh, rather than changing your knowledge like the geneforge and canisters. An example of this is where rawals geneforge gives you an intelligence bonus, by warping your brain.

I hate to pick nits—well, that's a lie, actually—but this annoys me. The brain is a part of the body, to state what should be obvious. Yes, it's an extraordinarily complex and plastic part, but not separate. A canister that works on the brain is working on the body.

[Pyrrhus]

That is exactly why true shapers don't use canisters

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

An example of this is where rawals geneforge gives you an intelligence bonus, by warping your brain.

It's clear from in-game text that it isn't so much warping it as un-warping it. Same with the stat boosts that Rawal gives you.

Regarding what Master1 says: what of healing pools? The game describes those as essence that works to repair damaged bodies. Essence-based healing is a thing, even if not all healing spells are essence-based.

Quote:

The brain is a part of the body, to state what should be obvious. Yes, it's an extraordinarily complex and plastic part, but not separate. A canister that works on the brain is working on the body.

This. It's also likely that canisters work on other parts of the body; after all, there's no evidence that the manipulation of essence is purely a function of the brain, or even the nervous system as a whole. Also, we know that reshaping can act on body parts other than the brain, both because the drakon to ur-drakon transition seems to involve visible physical alteration, and because some canisters in the games increase stats, rather than abilities.

[Pyrrhus]

The canisters also alter your character's appearance if you use too many of them

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Bandages do heal your character slightly....

Bandages are a game mechanic. They presumably still work by helping to stop bleeding and prevent infection.

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

Regarding what Master1 says: what of healing pools? The game describes those as essence that works to repair damaged bodies. Essence-based healing is a thing, even if not all healing spells are essence-based.

Since the pools work without having any kind of healer or shaper present, I think they give an alternate explanation for healing spells: the body's natural healing can be accelerated and enhanced by the infusion of essence. Healing spells do it with less essence and more conscious guidance by the healer. Healing pools do it by flooding everyone around them with enough essence to get the job done wastefully.

—Alorael, who also wildly hypothesizes that Shapers learn healing because of antiquated curriculum requirements. It's one of the core classes, so everyone takes it even if they just want to make a bunch of fyoras.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Since the pools work without having any kind of healer or shaper present, I think they give an alternate explanation for healing spells: the body's natural healing can be accelerated and enhanced by the infusion of essence. Healing spells do it with less essence and more conscious guidance by the healer. Healing pools do it by flooding everyone around them with enough essence to get the job done wastefully.

Right. My point being that use of essence to modify the body is not a sufficient criterion for defining reshaping, since healing pools (and maybe spells) do that as well. One of the reasons I leaned toward enhancement vs. restoration, even for what would otherwise be the same shaping operations, is that this seems to be a common delineation of the rules in transhumanism-averse sci fi settings. Of course, were we to accept this definition, that would still leave some gray area, e.g. whether one could have the equivalent of Shaper laser eye surgery.

[Pyrrhus]

What about essence infusion??? Your character infuses themselves with essence to get more health

[A less presumptuous name.]

If you look more closely, I wasn't saying that Shapers prohibit the use of essence to modify the body. I said that they prohibit the manipulation of essence in or on a non-shaped body. Shaper healing spells and healing pools use the energy of their essence to accelerate the body's natural healing process, as Alorael mentioned. That's very different than actually shaping a new limb or repairing damaged core nerves (which have little or no ability to be repaired naturally (and actually, there is current research going into this, as some evidence has indicated that nerve regeneration may be possible in the real world (nested parentheses are fun))).

[Pyrrhus]

When they heal don't they create cells to replace the damaged flesh and tissue???

[A less presumptuous name.]

I can't think of any in-game evidence that they create cells. The way I view healing in the GF universe, that would violate the laws against human shaping. If there is game evidence for it, please cite it, as it would deepen my insight into healing.

[Trenton.]

Healing is a non-real magic thing in geneforge that jeff made up to put in there so lets just ask him

 

OHH MISTER VOGEL!

 

*listens* Nope. Lets just agree that healing magic is mysterious

[Ceiling Durkheim]

If this discussion doesn't interest you, you're welcome to not read it. I, for one, find the topic interesting.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

When they heal don't they create cells to replace the damaged flesh and tissue???

There's a fine distinction: Shapers don't create cells. They encourage the body to create cells. Real-world medicine does much the same, usually: doctors don't usually give you more cells for your injuries, they just do their best to encourage the healing process.

—Alorael, who doesn't think essence eye surgery seems possible. That's under the heading of things that a human body can't accomplish with any amount of time or encouragement. Shapers might not actually be opposed, but they probably don't have the techniques to accomplish it without shaping, which they do oppose.

[Pyrrhus]

I disagree with one part about real life and doctors not replacing cells. There are organ transplants and blood transfusions that of course are cells.

 

My understanding of the healing in geneforge is that they shape over the injured parts to heal them. The healing animation is of essence flowing over them. Therefore, it is logical to assume that they are using the essence to heal themselves by shaping.

 

 

 

Off topic thingamajig: when you kill an enemy creation it should leave the body parts (ex. Artila eye from a dead Artila)

[Lord_Shaper]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

What about essence infusion??? Your character infuses themselves with essence to get more health

Maybe it's only a temporary fix, to stop you dying until your body can do it properly? Like adding a magical scab to prevent bleeding?

[Alorael at Large]

How many medical procedures are transfusions and transplants? The minority, and they're not a common solution to injury. For most punctures, lacerations, and breaks, you just immobilize, disinfect, and bandage and let the normal healing process do its thing.

 

—Alorael, who does not think it follows that an animation showing lights even necessarily means essence. Even if it does, essence does not necessarily imply shaping. That's what this whole argument is about: non-shaping use of essence.

[Pyrrhus]

I thought the argument was about how healing is or isn't shaping...

 

By speeding up the healing process with essence the shapers technially are creating cells

[A less presumptuous name.]

Alorael says the argument is non-shaping use of essence in healing. Pyrrhus sais the argument is healing: shaping or not. Really, two parts of the same thing. Clearly essence does (or at least can) play a role in shaping. However, given the very clear prohibition of self-shaping, it seems unlikely that healing would be considered shaping. Take a look at the Caretaker Vlish - the creation cannot shape but can heal its allies. Clearly some forms of healing do not require shaping.

 

As for shaping new cells when healing - I'm not sure why you're so convinced of that. Yes, new cells are created when you heal. New cells are created constantly, otherwise you wouldn't live very long at all. What Alorael and I have said is that, rather than actively shaping new cells, the healing process in Geneforge simply supplies energy and guidance, accelerating the body's natural healing process. So you could say that healing indirectly creates new cells, but you could also say that about eating, since the energy you get from your food allows your cells to divide.

[Pyrrhus]

I understand your point about some healing such as the vlish....

 

 

What you are saying about speeding up the process to create new cells is practically the same thing as my opinion about creating new cells. They are using essence in a way to create new cells quickly to heal themselves. That seems like shaping

[A less presumptuous name.]

The difference between healing and shaping is that of the difference between passive and active. When a Shaper, healer, or healing pool heals someone in Geneforge, it is providing energy that the body uses to accelerate it's natural healing process. Sort of a time lapse, if you will. You have a cut on your knee. It will heal on its own in 10 days or so, or you could have a Shaper speed things up.

 

What the Shapers prohibit is the active process of supplementing the body's natural process with a synthetic production of organic material. Again you have your knee scraped. The friendly neighborhood Shaper will not use his powers to create new flesh and graft it on over your booboo.

 

Again returning to Alwan, the origin of this conversation, we see a dilemma similar to that of stem cell research and genetic engineering in our world. Alwan's wounds go beyond what his body could naturally repair, so to become rehabilitated would require that active process of shaping new tissue for his body. The Shapers don't allow this sort of thing because it leads to what the Drakons did - shaping and reshaping oneself until the original is hardly left. And that's how the unbound came around.

[Alorael at Large]

No. There's a difference between creating cells from nothing and letting the body create cells. For one thing, modern scientists can do the latter, but the former is impossible. (Well, it's cutting-edge science, and not used medically.) Organisms are good at duplicating their own cells. That's how they grow, how they reproduce, and how they heal. Magic could make cells from nothing (hey, magic can do anything!), but it could also just fast-foward the normal cell division process. The results might be the same, but the processes aren't. We think it's the fast-forward process, not the cells-from-nothing process, and that Shapers would call the cells-from-nothing process shaping and ban its use on humans.

 

—Alorael, who notes that essence is also used to shoot damaging spells. That's definitely not shaping. Essence can do different things and really should be separated from the idea of healing, as it's necessary for non-shaping and therefore not sufficient for demonstrating shaping.

[Pyrrhus]

Is it my opinion or is this argument getting nowhere? We might as well just keep our own opinions and not waste our time forcing it on everyone else.

[A less presumptuous name.]

You don't have to agree. You don't have to stay in the argument, either. I, for one, think that this discussion has opened some valuable questions about the nature of essence and shaping.

[Goldengirl]

While I am generally in agreement with Alorael on this matter, I find that the distinctions we are drawing are relatively difficult to apply to the Shapers' understanding of biology. Healing crafts have been around for some time, and I would say they've probably been around longer than Shaping, though that is utter conjecture. Shaper understanding of cells, or even 'tiny scrolls', however, seems to be much more recent, and much less widespread. Therefore, I find it difficult to say that the Shapers can be so aware of what their essence is doing as to say that the acceleration of cellular growth is healing and creation of new cells is Shaping - especially when both might appear to have the same effect.

[Randomizer]

From some of the information in GF1 it implies that Shaping was more by trial and error until the events on Sucia Island allowed for planned Shaping leading to canisters and the Geneforge. It was the ability to see the scrolls inside the cells that resulted in this break through.

[Pyrrhus]

Healing always creates new cells. It is simple biology. If you cut yourself your skill will create new cells to heal the wound. I personally find it a bit ironic that the shapers create life yet they don't know that much about cells.

[Alorael at Large]

It's magic. Understanding cell theory is really only as important as its relevance to shaping, and shaping may have much more to do with hypothetical thaumobabble than real biology. And consider how well breeders have done with plants and animals for millennia before cells or genetics were understood. It's possible that shaping also works on mutating and copying traits even though the mechanisms are opaque to the shapers.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think there's anything simple about the biology of wound healing. Yes, it's cells, but which cells? Where do they come from? How many cells are enough, and when do they stop? Actually having to get all that right externally would be tough. Just letting the patient do the work would be easier and less likely to cause mutilation, graft rejection, or cancer.

[Pyrrhus]

The Shapers supposedly spend a long time training to learn how to do that though. They are using magic to make sure that cancer and mutations do not occur. They also use magic to get the correct type of cells.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Goldenking

While I am generally in agreement with Alorael on this matter, I find that the distinctions we are drawing are relatively difficult to apply to the Shapers' understanding of biology. Healing crafts have been around for some time, and I would say they've probably been around longer than Shaping, though that is utter conjecture. Shaper understanding of cells, or even 'tiny scrolls', however, seems to be much more recent, and much less widespread. Therefore, I find it difficult to say that the Shapers can be so aware of what their essence is doing as to say that the acceleration of cellular growth is healing and creation of new cells is Shaping - especially when both might appear to have the same effect.

My argument is this: The Shapers are, unlike most other beings, sentient of their essence. They are thus able to manipulate it. When a Shaper uses a healing spell, they can feel their natural energy/essence drained, but they aren't bending it to their will to form whatever needs replacing. As for shaping cells and tissues, it's quite possible that what they do is more by feel and reflex than detailed understanding, at least for the most part. It's reasonable to believe that, if they are aware of their own essence, they are able to magically differentiate between various tissue types and mold their essence to model what they know through research and experimentation.

Essentially, I think that when a Shaper is actively shaping new cells and tissues, they are consciously molding the essence to a form, whereas when healing they just allow their energy to be used by the recipient's body to accelerate natural processes.

[Pyrrhus]

In my opinion the shapers are use an advance science as well as magic. E=MC2 to create matter from energy(essence.) Hence they would create matter when healing by using the same principal.

[Alorael at Large]

As described in the series, though, shaping isn't quite advanced science. (Mad science? Certainly. Real science? Questionable.) There's certainly no evidence for an understanding of mass-energy equivalence, nor is it even clear that essence is energy, exactly. Given that there are pools of the stuff, it might well be a substance. But since it seems to be stored in people, who knows? It might be a semi-metaphysical substance with high chemical/thaumaturgical energy. That's a little far into the pseudoscience based on flimsy evidence from the games.

 

Thinking through this, though, I was about to assert something about the amount of energy needed to create even a gram of flesh. Unreasonable, right? Except shapers routinely seem to create creatures from nothing. They may not understand the process by which the magic works, but mass-energy conversion where essence has energy density much higher than its mass is no more ridiculous than transmutation of the elements in the surrounding landscape (and there are no divots or large vacuums left by shapers) or just "it's magic there's no explanation la la la!" We know shapers create something from nothing. Why not flesh and blood and bone attached to an already-existing creature?

 

—Alorael, who now goes back on his previous arguments. It's possible that, although healing is exactly the same as shaping, with maybe a slightly different emphasis on skills because making stuff from nothing is in practice a little different from making something that attaches to something else, shapers consider it different. It's no stranger than the therapy versus enhancements arguments surrounding current and speculative genetic and prosthetic/cybernetic modifications and the rather artificial lines drawn by the ethicists.

[Pyrrhus]

The essence could be measured in large quantities. It never says the exact unit of measurement it is measured in. And for rifts in the land.... Did you ever see the large black space around the map?

[Alorael at Large]

When you see shapers shape, you never either get huge rushes of air to fill vacuum or giant holes in the landscape. Something like that would be required if the matter to make creations came from the immediate surroundings.

 

On the other hand, if you're creating matter from energy to shape, you need a lot of energy. What's the most efficient source of energy? Probably total conversion of matter. The energy stored in matter is, generally speaking, going to be given by E = mc^2. See the problem? To create n kilograms of creation, you need n kilograms of essence. Pools can have huge amounts of essence in them, but your character, walking around, doesn't have hundreds of kilos of essence on him.

 

Essence could be stored in some alternate/spiritual dimension. Or it could be magic: it undergoes a magical, shaper-induced reaction that produces enough energy that the equivalent mass, in matter, makes a creation. Except why invoke mass-energy equivalence when you could skip all that and just say that essence magically creates matter? It's the simplest explanation, it's most consistent with the series, and it doesn't require bringing in modern physics.

 

—Alorael, who moderately regrets trying to bring Occam's razor to an insane fan theory fight.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I think that, a long time ago, there was a discussion about types of creations - long-term shaped and quickie PC shaped. That distinction is key in how I explain the "something out of nothing" and "pool of energy goo" phenomenons.

 

First, I assume that essence is a particular form of energy, given that it is found in all living creatures and can be drawn from them and transferred to them. Thus, for me, an essence pool/pod contains an alchemical mixture designed at storing essence energy for a long time, sort of like a battery.

 

Second, I turn to the difference between how the PC and characters in battle shape compared to what we see in laboratories. The long-term lab-based creations presumably are formed using some sort of essence-goop stock, readily available from your friendly neighborhood conduit. The quick creations that you whip up in a few seconds or minutes don't have this physical component and are pure energy when they are first created.

 

Have you noticed that the creations that Shapers make in battle tend to be much weaker than those formed well beforehand? I see this as due to the fact that the rapidly shaped creations are immaterial forms of energy held together by energy. It is far easier to disrupt those bonds than it is to hack through a tough piece of drakon steak.

 

So now your PC has created a field of energy resembling a fyora. As time goes by (and if you're not in battle, you can presumably spend time right away on this), your "fyora" will eat and breath, amassing mass as it does so. Thus, while not having the solid framework that a vat-shaped creation does, it will eventually have a fully physical body.

 

 

tl;dr - essence is energy and creations may not have mass right away. I spend way too much time thinking about this.

[Skwish-E]

Essence is actually stored in another dimension that Shapers have the ability to tap into. It is nearly limitless, and there is a certain amount of leaking through dimples in the veil that seperates visible reality from the unseen world. A living being seems to contain essence, but it actually is just tapping into a limited supply collected in the dimple that is around it. Shapers, as they gain power, can expand their dimple, making more essence available to them. They can also form things from that essence. An essence pool is actually formed around a rip in the veil that constantly leaks essence into the visible world. Whether essence is energy or substance is really a bad question. It is both.

[Pyrrhus]

@Master1: If creations were pure energy they would be invincible. They couldn't get killed when stabbed because they wouldn't have any organs/flesh/blood to destroy. I think they start off as energy although they solidify into matter.

 

We also do not know the exact amount of essence a shaper can hold in his body. We have no unit of measurement, so it could be tons, or very little at all.

 

The alternate demention as their source of energy makes sense.

[Alorael at Large]

The solid energy hypothesis is fine, except it has no corroboration in the series and makes no physical sense.

 

The essence in another dimension is fine, except it's complicated and also has basis in any game text.

 

What happens in-game: you create apparently solid, living, breathing creatures from nothing, and it costs essence. Everyone describes the creatures as normal and alive; assuming otherwise goes against all evidence. What is essence? Vague. It seems to serve simultaneously as an energy reserve, which is of no appreciable mass (it never weighs down your character) or volume (a little bit of a stretch, but it's not an actual item). It simultaneously appears in pools and comes in pods.

 

For convenience I'd rather assume that the substantial form isn't really essence but rather some material from which shapers can draw essence. It's a shorthand, and it matches the actual things found in Geneforge better than alternate dimensions and solid energy beings.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't know why some constructed explanations bother him more than others. He'd just rather not add complexity without basis to a description of a fictional system just for the sake of having more complexity.

[Sudanna]

It's stated here and there that essence is an actual substance that needs to be concocted or somehow manufactured. You find a workshop for doing just that, complete with artisan, in G4 or G5. Maybe it's done with magic, maybe with alchemy, who knows, but it is an actual substance. It's also stated that Shapers store it in their own bodies, though, so it's probably not simply goo.

 

It's also stated that creations require some physical materials to Shape. Sulfur for Fyoras comes to mind. I can't remember a specific instance, but I think it's been stated on some of the schematic loading screens or odd flavor text here and there. Presumably, the PC carries these materials with them and it's simply never addressed or shown.

 

However, the only important thing to know about essence is that it's magic, and not fully explained magic, so it doesn't have to make logical sense to us and trying to fit it into our boxes is a little pointless.