If I join the Trakovites do I have to give up shaping?[G5]

[museumfreak]

Currently trying to decide whether I want to go Astoria or Litalia.

 

I have a silly question, though - if I join Litalia, do I have to stop shaping? That pretty much won't work for a shock trooper at all, I will die a horrible death in the endgame battles.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Nope. They won't train you in shaping (a definite disadvantage compared to other factions), but there are trainers and canisters for every creation type that don't require faction allegiance, and a couple creations (drakon, gazer) are only available from canisters anyway.

 

In general, factions are pretty lenient about your shaping: Alwan and Taygen won't teach you to create drayks, but they don't offer any objections if you walk around with a squad of them.

[Pyrrhus]

off topic question: isn't Litalia the shaper lady that sacked the school in the beginning of G3?

[Alorael at Large]

Yes, she's the mastermind behind the beginning of the game. Litalia probably goes through the most introspection and personal growth of any character in the series.

 

—Alorael, who even thinks the Trakovites give a half-way decent explanation for why shaping is still permitted. It boils down to not wanting you to die a horrible death in the endgame battles. You can give up shaping once you've won.

[Pyrrhus]

Who would want to give up shaping?

 

Off topic again =P: I think Alwan is a weak character despite his continuation. He is always so close-minded. I once killed him in G3 at the school when I was playing rebel... it was the same game where I killed both Harmony towns.

[Alorael at Large]

Weak? No. Consistent, and holding a viewpoint you don't like. He's one of the few Shapers who believes that he's doing the right thing and does it from that belief, not for personal gain or out of inertia or just to stay on top, though.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't even call that especially closed-minded. No, he's no rebel, but the rebels aren't saints themselves. Shaper society, run with less iron-fisted dictatorship and more respect for creations even if they are subservient, wouldn't be so bad

[museumfreak]

I actually think Alwan is particularly strong in terms of his convictions, and possessed of few creepy personality traits. I also really like that he's clearly a survivor and able to put his own strength behind what he believes is the right thing. Rawal, on the other hand, is a [censored] creepy opportunist, and Taygen is like the Nazi option of Geneforge.

 

If I wasn't already very pro rebel in terms of reputation (apparently so pro rebel that he won't give me any more quests after the Gazaki-Uss one), I would consider joining Alwan for the endgame, but I think it's probably more consistent for my character to join Litalia or Astoria, as she felt very impressed by the strength of character and survivor traits and committment of the rebellious serviles from early on and was swayed to their side.

 

I haven't played the other Geneforge games, however - I initially liked Avernum for the story, and kept getting confused and killed by gross looking things in one of the first Geneforges I played (no, I don't remember which one). However, Avernum 4, which I loved the story of on the first play-through, now feels boring and excessively fiddly, and I don't want to continue playing that again; I felt Avadon on the other hand didn't really give me enough options. Right now, there are things I would do differently next playthrough with my Geneforge character (specifically, I'd probably take a shaper instead of a shock-trooper), but I don't feel like I've spent excessive time fiddling or am completely unable to finish the game because of a couple poor choices with skill points, and I'm really enjoying the plot and shaping. My problem is sometimes feeling TOO compelled by the game and not logging off when I should.

[Pyrrhus]

I am and always have played Pro-shaper. Alwan's consistency just bothered me. I actually do like his viewpoint. I just don't like him.

 

Is it bad if I like Rawal though???

[Trenton.]

Rawal sucks, he insists on ruling your life the...Insisting way. If you dont agree you die. Hes like hitler, or a dictator. Everyone else gives you a choice to join theyre faction and remove the control tool he has placed apon you. However you may like him if you want.

 

Thats why its called the control tool. He Controls you, and you're his Tool.

[Pyrrhus]

I like Alwan's faction. I just don't like his appearance. My favorite ending is the truce ending though...

 

I guess the reason I like Rawal is because he gives you the papers to become a shaper.

[Trenton.]

Alwan gives you papers to pass places. Taygen gives you papers for creation wandering. Astoria gives you passage between Mera-tev and the whitespires, to the storm plains. Ghaldring allows you into many rebel places. Say like, south dera beach, where there is a Drakon, or the servile camp in the dera reaches which has some good loot, or the canisters in the back of his town. I don't know what litalia can give you, but almost everyone gives you papers or places to go.

[Pyrrhus]

It his because he gives you the papers that make you "officially" a shaper when the other Whitespire shapers keep telling you that you aren't.

[Pyrrhus]

I just decided I don't like Rawal. His control tool annoys me. I started playing as a rebel and he kept killing me ;(

[Trenton.]

Get to ghazzaki-Uss and do ghaldrings quests, or do astorias quests, and you should get the option of getting your control tool taken out. Just walk up to your counciler/ghaldring/litalia and pick the option that says "I want this control tool out". You can only do it when you join their faction though

[Randomizer]

Any of the factions will eventually offer you the option to remove the control tool except Rawal.

[Trenton.]

Rawals faction makes it stay on you? Even at the end game?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Yes. Though he doesn't really have a "faction" per se: he gives you the option to work as his bodyguard after you complete the last of his quests. Doing so ends the game and gives you a different ending. He doesn't have any endgame quests, and his ending is pretty nasty, but it's worth seeing for completeness' sake.

[Trenton.]

Gives you the option? You mean you can keep playing instead of finishing his quest?

[Pyrrhus]

What is his ending?

[Trenton.]

Don't know. I am only getting taygens finishing quest, and I am lucky just to get into inner ghazzaki-uss. My chances of killing a crap load of drakons and ghaldring with only three fully fledged shapers and counciler astoria is dim.

[Pyrrhus]

What I'm speculating for Rawal's ending is somewhat like this:

 

You worked hard for Rawal. Unfortunately, someone found out about the illegal control tool. To hide the evidence he killed everything with the tool implanted. Unfortunately you die...

 

I'm not sure if that is correct or not though

[Alorael at Large]

That's not correct. Rawal is a better master than that, if only slightly.

 

Click to reveal..

If you complete Rawal's quests, he considers you too important to risk in errant adventures. You're with him in his stronghold when the rebels come for him, and you die alongside him.

 

—Alorael. who wouldn't say you don't have to do Rawal's quests. You have to not do Rawal's quests if you want to play through most of the game.

[Pyrrhus]

That is a happy ending.

[Trenton.]

Even if the drakons manage to kill rawal, you are powerful enough to kill rawal too, hence the "Kill all councilers" quest for ghaldring. With your infinite power of shaping and magic, even if the forces get through minnelah, they will be wounded, and then they have to get through all them wingbolts, a servent mind, and another shaper. And then they come after you and rawal. Rawal summons creatures on the pentengrams at the south-east end of his chambers. With you and your creations you and all of west-spire, and minnelah, should have been able to smite the drakons assault

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Even if the drakons manage to kill rawal, you are powerful enough to kill rawal too, hence the "Kill all councilers" quest for ghaldring. With your infinite power of shaping and magic, even if the forces get through minnelah, they will be wounded, and then they have to get through all them wingbolts, a servent mind, and another shaper. And then they come after you and rawal. Rawal summons creatures on the pentengrams at the south-east end of his chambers. With you and your creations you and all of west-spire, and minnelah, should have been able to smite the drakons assault

Which "infinite" power of shaping and magic is this? Both the PC and Rawal are very powerful shapers, but neither is invincible. If anything, a powerful drakon like Ghaldring or Akhari Blaze would still be stronger: their shaping skills are similar, only they're a 10-12 foot tall dragon, and the PC and Rawal are small, squishy apes.

Moreover, in Rawal's ending the rebel forces save him for last. By this time, they've already taken out the council and overwhelmed the western provinces. This means that if necessary, they can bring the majority of their army to bear on the Whitespires. One garrison (even in an easily defensible fortress) with no options for resupply just isn't going to stand up against an army many times its size.

[Alorael at Large]

While you can be powerful enough to face anything in the engine, you aren't infinitely powerful. An actual army is quite capable of taking you down.

 

—Alorael, who cites as evidence the results of making every faction hate you.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quite so. Likewise, the ending if you piss off Gazaki-Uss while on Alwan's mission.

[Randomizer]

One simple mistake of targeting a creature on your own side in a battle will cause it too.

[Trenton.]

You mean killing in Gazzaki-uss gets the same dialog as getting caught behind ghaldrings home in his laboratories?

 

I have also noticed the instant death options have gone up ever since exile 3.

[Pyrrhus]

What if you kill all the rebels? Does Rawal's ending change?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Kill all of which rebels? There are a substantial number of rebels you can't kill (inner Gazaki-Uss) until the very end of the game. Since choosing Rawal's ending terminates the game immediately, you can't do both.

[Goldengirl]

Even if you kill all the rebels you interact with in the game, there are still armies more in eastern Terrestia, with some Unbound in reserve, as seen at the boundary between the rebel and loyalist Okavano swamp.

 

With Rawal's ending, you don't get the chance to kill many of the key rebel leaders and generals. Alwan, the bastion of the loyalists, is not the spitting image of good health, nor is the Line impenetrable. Short of actually joining a faction, there is little the PC can do to save Rawal from the rebel hordes.

[Pyrrhus]

Ok.

 

What i've always wondered is why doesn't Alwan heal himself? The shapers have the ability to heal so why doesn't he heal himself?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

What i've always wondered is why doesn't Alwan heal himself? The shapers have the ability to heal so why doesn't he heal himself?

's a fair question. The most likely answer is that as with modern medicine, there are some things that recovery magic and items can heal, and other things they can't. Shaper healing seems mostly geared toward immediate treatment of injuries, toxins, diseases, etc. We don't see it doing things like healing nerve damage, reversing (or even preventing) the effects of aging, or helping with old injuries. Of course, the games never really spell this out.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Also, as you can tell from discussions about drakons, the Shapers aren't too friendly with the idea of shaping people. While it may be possible for Shapers to heal Alwan, that would be the first step down a slippery slope toward drakon-esque Shapers.

[Alorael at Large]

The Shapers don't seem hostile to healing, though. Although really they're not forthcoming on the subject.

 

—Alorael, who can't even tell if most healing magic is properly considered magic or shaping. They're not the same thing, although you can easily miss that fact.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I suspect that healing exists in both magic and shaping. Things like minor heal and cure effects don't seem to require manipulation of essence (although they do deplete your essence, they don't count as shaping). Looking at Alwan, though, it appears as though he would need reconstructive surgery, or the Geneforge equivalent of body-shaping.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Well, and the taboo on body shaping may also mean that the Shapers have a substantially lower level of technology in that respect than in comparable ones. Not to mention that paralysis like Alwan's probably stems from nerve damage, and from my (limited) understanding of medical science, nerves are easier to mess up and harder to repair than muscle, bone, the vascular system, etc. I think if the Shapers would be inclined to bend the rules for anyone, it would be their star general, but it's hard to say. It brings up the interesting, and as far as I know unanswered question of just what qualifies as reshaping. Clearly the alteration of bodily tissues through the use of essence is not enough to qualify as such, since most healing fits those criteria. One possibility, for which there is little evidence but also no counter-evidence I know of, is that prohibited forms of reshaping involve augmentation as opposed to rehabilitation. After all, pretty much every prohibited form of reshaping (canisters, the Geneforge, the techniques the drakons use) is geared toward improving bodies and minds, rather than restoring their normal functionality. Makes one wonder.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

just what qualifies as reshaping. Clearly the alteration of bodily tissues through the use of essence is not enough to qualify as such, since most healing fits those criteria.

I'm not convinced that basic healing requires the use of essence in the sense of shaping. Yes, in the game, healing spells require essence, but the way I see it, that's almost more of a stamina requirement. Descriptions of essence imply that everyone has it, but only Shapers are able to manipulate it. Thus, when a healer heals someone, they drain their essence in the effort but aren't actively manipulating it in the process.

If my supposition is correct, that would explain why Alwan was never healed - his rehabilitation would require active manipulation of essence on a non-shaped being.

[Pyrrhus]

Originally Posted By: -–—

The Shapers don't seem hostile to healing, though. Although really they're not forthcoming on the subject.

—Alorael, who can't even tell if most healing magic is properly considered magic or shaping. They're not the same thing, although you can easily miss that fact.

I think that it is considered shaping because it is under the shaping skill category.

[Trenton.]

It is the putting of ones essence into another body in a way the heals fiborus tishue. Putting essence in someone isn't bad. Alwan has essence restoring him.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Originally Posted By: -–—

The Shapers don't seem hostile to healing, though. Although really they're not forthcoming on the subject.

—Alorael, who can't even tell if most healing magic is properly considered magic or shaping. They're not the same thing, although you can easily miss that fact.

I think that it is considered shaping because it is under the shaping skill category.

Remember that there is a difference between game mechanics and the laws of the fictional universe. Do you think that Alwan has a magical notebook where he records his exp and hit points? Jeff put healing craft under Shaping because 1. it makes sense and 2. magic already has 4 categories.

Trenton - what Alwan has is pretty much an IV drip of energy that helps him sustain his life force. To use essence to restore his body would require shaping that essence into a physical form as part of his body, something that the Shapers are against.

[Pyrrhus]

Not all of the shapers are against it. Rawal has a geneforge.

[Trenton.]

Yes but if it made a better way of sustaining his body, one that allowed him to go out and fight with a crap load of maybe 400 creations, then I don't see why he wouldn't want that. He would want the rebels to die more than people being shaped right?

[Pyrrhus]

The shapers might not heal him because they want an excuse to keep him safe and out of any battle. (assuming no one tries to kill him)

[Txgangsta]

It's a matter of morals. Alwan sees it immoral to shape himself. He doesn't care the benefits, it's about the Shaper honor. The Shapers see themselves as creators, and the things shaped as creations. If alwan shapes himself, he is a creation, and therefore lower than he was before. He would rather die a pure shaper than submit to shaping himself.

[Pyrrhus]

Technically whenever a shaper heals himself he shapes himself...

[Lord_Shaper]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Technically whenever a shaper heals himself he shapes himself...

No. If you look at the way the canisters/geneforge/drakon lunatics work, they don't - or rarely - alter the body. It is the mind, the brain, that they alter, warping it into insanity. Healing merely creates and attaches flesh, rather than changing your knowledge like the geneforge and canisters. An example of this is where rawals geneforge gives you an intelligence bonus, by warping your brain.
I think alwan has just been damaged beyond the current standard of magical healing. Taygen says they (the shapers) have only just figured out bacteria, and the fact they cause diseases. This is about our 1870's level of medicine. The fact that they are still advancing their medical abilities suggests that healing can repair damaged tissue, but not recreate damaged organs.

[Pyrrhus]

I disagree. Organs are made up of tissue. If your character happens to get stabbed in the stomach by a servile, he still can heal himself.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Pyrrhus, if you were stabbed, would your body be able to heal? Yes. And there is no essence involved. The distinction that I have been trying to make now is that simple healing does not require shaping, given that there are healers who are not Shapers. Thus, the allowance of healing does not indicate that the Shapers allow self-shaping. In fact, numerous game texts (I can't find them personally, my scripts are lost in the abyss at the moment) state clearly that the Shapers are dead-set against self-shaping.

 

Txgangsta is correct on why Alwan will not shape himself even if he could become fully rehabilitated. It's against the law, and, as I mentioned earlier, what is to stop Shapers from using that precedent as an excuse to shape themselves further. At that point, they are hardly any different from the Drakons.

 

As for this:

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Not all of the shapers are against it. Rawal has a geneforge.

.... Really? If I tell you that Americans frown on murder, would you counter that by using the example of a single murderer? My point was that Shapers as a whole dislike and have outlawed shaping humans.