Disposable vs Kept[G5]

[Lauren CW]

I've read conflicting things on this subject, and I was wondering, what is the point of keeping creations vs. disposable creations? It's not like levelling them gets them higher stats than creating them at that level, so isn't it better then for the purposes of flexibility to just use disposables?

The only thing I can think of that keeping them has an edge with, is the possibility that you could spend less points into the shaping skill, and more into intelligence or whatever else. Is this the only difference?

[Lilith]

If you hold onto the same creations for long enough, they'll eventually level up significantly beyond a level at which you could ever reasonably create a fresh one, even if you're boosting shaping skills. The extra levels do make a meaningful difference. Having said that, even freshly-made 5th tier creations are impressively powerful and can hold their own throughout the endgame.

[Randomizer]

Also 1st and 2nd tier creations are more susceptible to mental attacks. However until you can shape 5th tier creations it's better to hold on to lower level creations as long as they are effective since the essence cost is low and you can use the extra essence for spells.

[Lauren CW]

I've played so many many times through all of the Geneforge series, but this is the first time I've ever done a full shaper. After finishing out the whitespires, I see what you mean about leveling creations. I got my cryoas and clawbugs to level 18 without putting a single point into shaping. So as a pure shaper planning on holding onto my creations, would I be better off just getting +shape-skills gear and not putting any points into those skills at all? Just giving him straight magic skills and int?

[Alorael at Large]

I think it's worth putting points into your shaping skills. You will want to upgrade your creations eventually, and having an extra ten levels for those new guys does help.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the beginning is the exception. You can build an army quite early and holding onto it is likely to be more effective than replacing it with second or maybe even third-tier creations. They'll still start running out of steam by the time you get higher tiers, and while you can just go with the base stats of those, it's better to give them a boost with skills and equipment.

[Death Knight]

I would only recommend kept creations in geneforge 3, 4 and 5 as they have a more simplified way of making it work with low levels creations.

 

Geneforge 1 and 2 are usually not recommended with this as the high level creations are better in almost every way with regard to maximizing. Geneforge 3 was i think the best one to try it as vlish are probably too powerful if you start them early.

[Lauren CW]

So I can hold on to my creations probably until I join Alwan for shaping training, then put points into it and start making stronger creations... Hmm....

 

EDIT:

 

Playing on Hard instead of Torment since it's my first ever full shaper. He is /destroying/ things. I just took Lerman's Pass at level 32 with 3 plated bugs and 3 vlish. Lost one of each killing the great eye himself, but it was worth it as I'm about to start making Drayks and Rots.

[Pyrrhus]

I personally get attached to one creation and keep it. The others I don't care about and can die.

[Painted Lady]

I normally prefer playing solo, so my experience with creations is somewhat limited.

 

That said, when I first played G1 I kept two fyoras alive from day 1 through to the end. It was a pill to keep re-loading whenever one of them went down, but they were amazingly powerful by the end of the game.

 

I tried to do the same with G2, but the fyoras had been rebalanced and it was not possible. It looks to me like the best combo might vary by game?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Painted Lady

It looks to me like the best combo might vary by game?

Definitely. Besides the balancing issue, new forms of creations come and go. The cryoa is probably the most reliable early creation you can keep alive and useful for the entirety of any Geneforge game.

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

The big ones are that fire shaping is generally dominant in G1, and the creation list is short enough that something like a cryoa won't be completely overshadowed at the end. In the first three games, vlish are very good; in G3, they're potentially game-wreckingly good. In G5 battle shaping, the loser of the previous four games, becomes quite strong with the capstone war tralls getting a killer ranged attack.

 

—Alorael, who will say that all the games balance so that a shaper can do quite well, whereas other classes often have to plan builds more carefully. What, exactly, you want to shape to be optimal isn't the same, and you might even want to invest in different branches of shaping, but investing heavily will reliably serve you quite well.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: .- .-.. --- .-. .- . .-..

The big ones are that fire shaping is generally dominant in G1, and the creation list is short enough that something like a cryoa won't be completely overshadowed at the end. In the first three games, vlish are very good; in G3, they're potentially game-wreckingly good. In G5 battle shaping, the loser of the previous four games, becomes quite strong with the capstone war tralls getting a killer ranged attack.

Vlish are very good in all five games for the time you get them, really, it's just that in G4 and G5 they eventually become obsolete.

[Randomizer]

Fire and Magic creations were downgraded in the later games so Battle creations became better by comparison.

[Aoslare]

Oh boy. This thread is full of fortune cookie wisdom with varying degrees of accuracy. Let's take a closer look at this.

 

GENEFORGE 1

Strategy: Disposable. (Only Geneforge game where creations get better stat bonuses from being created, than from being levelled up.)

Creations: Fire OR Magic. (There were very few differences between creations aside from base level and from attack type. Battle lacked anything impressive, but Cryoas, Drayks, Cryodrayks, Artila, Vlish, and Terror Vlish were all very good. Fire gets you a little more attack power, but also costs more skill points leaving you with less Intelligence. Magic gets you the ancillary effects.)

 

GENEFORGE 2

Strategy: Kept. (Gaining levels is useful here, although the rate of gain isn't as good as in other games, and some late-game creations were really good.)

Creations: Magic. (Increased enemy resistances to fire and ice make Fire less effective, although still good. Shifted damage levels make Vlish somewhat better than they were already. Drakons are overpriced, but this is the game where Eyebeasts (also very expensive) really shine.)

 

GENEFORGE 3

Strategy: Kept. (The formula is most favorable to creation level gain in G3, and some of the best creations are available VERY early.)

Creations: Magic. (Melee damage was cut in half, which kills Battle. Almost all magic damage was shifted down... but not Vlish, who now have one of the strongest attacks even with the ancillary effect. Terror Vlish provide alternate damage types and Artilla will keep you going before you get Vlish. Kept Vlish break this game.)

 

GENEFORGE 4

Strategy: Kept. (Not as useful as G3, but there is still enough time for some key creation types to level up a fair bit.)

Creations: Magic OR (in Mac version) Fire. (Vlish power reduced, but Wingbolts are now the best creation due to their high attack power, damage type, and resistances. In the Mac version Drayks are nearly as good due to their physical type breath, and other Fire creations (Cryoa and Kyshakks) are decent additions.)

 

GENEFORGE 5

Strategy: Kept. (One of the best, if not the best game to keep creations around in, due to the HUGE number of experience levels you can have them for, and the potential to get high tier creations early. Massive potential for level gain.)

Creations: Battle OR Magic. (Battle creations in general were improved. In particular, the War Trall is the best general use creation in the game, and you can get it early enough to level it a lot. It's not quite a G3 Vlish, but it's as close as anything else comes to it. Magic still has the Wingbolt and can still rely on Vlish for support, so it's also a good option. Fire, without Physical Drayks, is much less versatile than either of the other types.)

[Painted Lady]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Creations: Magic OR (in Mac version) Fire. (Vlish power reduced, but Wingbolts are now the best creation due to their high attack power, damage type, and resistances. In the Mac version Drayks are nearly as good due to their physical type breath, and other Fire creations (Cryoa and Kyshakks) are decent additions.)

I'm curious about the apparent differences in the PC and Mac versions. Any idea why? And, are you aware of any other differences in the Geneforge series?

[Aoslare]

That's pretty much it. It was an error that was correct in the PC version, and possibly in the most recent Mac version, not sure about that.

[Lilith]

The Windows version comes out after the Mac version and has an extra round of beta-testing, so some little bugs like that can get caught and fixed in between the two.

[Pyrrhus]

I noticed in the earlier versions that the ilovemoney and the givememoney cheat don't work

[Jerakeen]

Hm. I just finished my first G5 run-through. I swapped my drakon for an ur-drakon in the last zone. But it seemed kind of pointless.

 

Having finished the game, I will now read all the strategy stuff and gnash my teeth over everything I missed.

 

Edit: A quick perusal of SC seems to indicate that there's no way to get Create Gazer above level 2. Is that accurate?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

Edit: A quick perusal of SC seems to indicate that there's no way to get Create Gazer above level 2. Is that accurate?

No, there are three Create Gazer canisters, but just like with Create Drakon the third one isn't accessible until the final zone.

[Jerakeen]

oh yes, I see that my perusal was too quick.