Shaping points?[G5]

[Namine]

Is it profitable to add to shaping skills after your character reaches the minimum point needed to create every single creation? since it seems that in Geneforge quantity is in fact better than quality? Thanks for the advice guys. I was also wondering, is this the same for magic points as well?

[Øther]

Putting more points in the shaping catagories helps make the creations you make stronger. I think that the minimum to make everything and its upgraded version is 5.

 

When you say magic points, I assume that you're talking about the battle magic, mental magic ect. Putting points into those catagories helps make those spells stronger, and also unlock new spells.

[Namine]

Thank Other, sorry i didn't phrase my questions well. What I meant was, is it worth adding points after you have 5 points in each shaping skill.

[Mukwa]

I think it's 7 in each (Fire, Battle, etc) for points to create everything

 

But yeah -- I tried a shaper with less Int and better ability in Shaping to see if it makes a difference. I could make awesome beasties at 10th to 15th level, but the lack of essence hurt him (so I could make 1 awesome Plated Arty, and nothing else, when I could have used 2 or 3 of em)

 

Which is why I went to 10 Int -- 2 Shaping for the Demo area, as Shaping skill-level isn't critical for those awesomely powerful beasties yet -- the essense to create a group of 4 weaker ones is (so I could have 3 pumped scorps or 2 pumped plated arty's easy)

 

So as Shaping skill goes up in the next few sections of the game, the high amount of essense stays, and the power of the beasties gets awesome pretty quick.

 

-- And this is for EVERY "class" -- so a Shaper or Servile or Infiltrator -- it's all the same ..

[Hypnotic]

Every class should try have 20 Int by the end game. Shapers mabey 25.

[Namine]

so i should max int and min shaping? bring shaping to 7 and stop, then pump int right?

[Hypnotic]

The best way to pump int as at the start. Put EVERY point at the start into Int. Betray Mekhan for +Int, it has no long lasting effects. Then use the Geneforge. By the time you leave the Whitespires you should have 20Int without artifacts. Creations are key for keeping you alive at this stage.

 

Then later with the right gear you will easily have 25ish Int. More or less deping on how Quantity vs Quality you are.

 

Doing things this way saves you a couple of levels of skill points.

[Namine]

hmm, good idea. But like, my main question is. After getting shaping to the number where you can create all creations, is it worth it to continue pumping points in shaping?

[Hypnotic]

If you are one of the people that can keep their creations alive, then no. If you like the "Burning" creations that are powerful but die quickly, then yes. If you want to make an Eyebeast that will dominate the game yes.

 

Each point you put into shaping increases the creations level when you shape it. Which means more Hp and every second level, +Int, End, Str and Dex.

 

Really it comesa down to your play style, I personally would get to 7 then boot healing and blessing magic to support my creations.

[Namine]

thanks a ton!

[Øther]

Namine, how do you use your creations? Do you try to keep them around for a long time, and only replace them once it is clear that they are of no more use, do you make quick hordes for tougher battles, then let them die? Or do you do something different?

[Mukwa]

yeah -- betraying Mek, Geneforge -- giving one a +2 - -and add the Students Belt for another +1 == +3 total, very good indeed.

 

At the start-- using a Shaper as a template. Putting every point into Int -- grabs one a 7 Int .. so with betraying Mek, Geneforge ands students belt -- that could give somebody a 10 Int.

 

so then -- we can safely assume somebody will want to get to every nook and crevice of the demo area -- and get to level 15/16 by the time they leave the Whitespires Pass

 

so we'll say 75 points in skills gained.

 

Now -- that makes a person @ 1st level having a 1 Leadership and 2 Mechanics -- a VERY tough situation --

 

we KNOW that discussions and areas are locked until leadership is gained to at least 5 in the "demo area" -- so that is points needed

 

we KNOW that certain sections are locked due to the need for a far better mechanics skill level -- as there aren't enough living tools to open all the doors with a skilll level of 2. So we KNOW mechanics will need to be raised significantly -- so points being used there too.

 

Now if I am not mistaken, the Plated Arty is a level 2 critter -- so buying a level in Magical creations will help -- more points to use ...

 

Now I (for my characters: 4 Str, 4 Dex, 4 End, 10 Int) -- so yes, I COULD have not risen in those other stats and just bought Int -- to say 13, but dragging along all that extra equipment gets to be a pain when one is encumbered and trying to cast spells ..

 

Also I make sure I bought a few points in Healing and Blessing Magic for support of my critters -- also more points needed to spend.

 

So then -- I see the above post saying how it is viable to just pump Int to 20 for those first 15 levels while one romps thru the Whitespires -- I disagree and see that as far too risky -- and a need to spread out the points a bit will do one a favor in the long term.

[Øther]

It may actually be good to pump int to 20 that early on, but it would be a bit of a pain and you would have to leave a lot of stuff alone and come back later. Also, with few creations, I can usually leave the whitespires at around 19-20, but maybe that is because I have leadership and mechanics and get the exp from those things.

[Namine]

Well, when i make creations, they never tend to survive. So it's a sort of create, die in battle, and make new ones kinda thing.

[Øther]

Then if they tend to die and you often have the need for new ones, then it may be a good idea to put a few more points into your preffered shaping catagory.

[Mukwa]

Originally Posted By: Øther

Then if they tend to die and you often have the need for new ones, then it may be a good idea to put a few more points into your preffered shaping catagory.

yeah, agreed...

[Namine]

thanks for the tips. Also, I was wondering... is it worth it to boost endurance?

[A less presumptuous name.]

Yours or your creation's? Either way, if you/they are dying often, it would probably help.

[Øther]

Or if you don't want to waste as many of your turns healing.

[Hypnotic]

The thing is if you can pump int before Mekhan and the Geneforge are used you will save skill points as it raises the skill for free but counts as being trained in it. So if you pumped everything else and not Int then you get about 8 free skill points. Pump int then you get about 15 free skill points.

 

Its a case of short term loss, long term gain. And having a hoard of creations is not entierly risky.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Namine

Well, when i make creations, they never tend to survive. So it's a sort of create, die in battle, and make new ones kinda thing.

That happens to me a lot unless I buy enough intelligence for my creations so that I can turn off their AI. Otherwise, they tend to commit suicide by picking a fight with the strongest creation in the area.

My preferred strategy is to play as a singleton Shaper/lifecrafter most of the time, making (usually temporary) creations only when things get too tough.

[Øther]

Actually, with the build I am using right now, my creations do very well with the AI on. Of course, they get frightened and go rogue a lot more easily, and they don't really have any strategy, but for the most part (except against pretty hard enemies) my three plated clawbugs and one drayk are doing fairly well, and usually the enemies are all killed by the time I even have a chance to move.

[The Mystic]

Lucky you. My creations do get frightened on rare occasions, but (surprisingly) they've never gone rogue; as I mentioned before, they just have suicidal tendencies in combat when the AI is turned on.

[Øther]

The only suicidal things my creations tend to do most is rush onto a new swarm after we have just killed one and I'm not prepared for it.

[Namine]

So... what's your favorite creation/creation group to use? My favorite is a the kyshaak!(unstable)

[Øther]

If I were able to choose from all the creations, then I would take the war trall

(or shock trall, if it is a hard boss). Battle creations are the way to go in this game, and the war trall is the best of them. I'm not counting the shock trall because it's unstable, but it is better than the war trall.

[Hypnotic]

Rotdhizons!! Everytime. They have 12AP, have tonnes of Hp, completly Immune to Acid and Poison, Inflict Acid, Inflict Poison upon death, do a fair amount of damage, and sometimes get a quick action second swing. I love those things.

 

However, they suck against magic damage. Wingbolts and Kyshakks kill them. Gazers however arn't a problem.

[Øther]

Rotdhizons are my second favorite, and the war trall only beats them because of the awesome ranged physical damage it does.

[Namine]

Haha, Kyshaaks all the way!!! Anyways,which combinations do you think work the best? Also, lately my Cryoa has been dying, so I boosted fire shaping by 2 points, but no difference. Should I be boosting it by like 10 before I see results?

[Mod.]

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172598&Post=172598

[Mukwa]

For Brute strength -- yeah -- Battle creations are the way to go. Once I get my scorps, I dont usually need cryos anymore. Although, Magical creations are a trip as well.

 

I might be strange but I equal out all my stats when I build my critters -- cause I hate it when they go "nuts", so I try and build up enough Int in them so they wont typically fail Int checks.

[Namine]

Cool, are there any studies on the other types of creations?

[Mod.]

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=179097#Post179097

 

 

Fire:

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172598&Post=172598

 

Battle:

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172655#Post172655

 

Magic:

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=183146Post183146

[Namine]

Oh wow, I'm surprised I haven't noticed that. Thanks!

[Dikiyoba]

Cryoas really, really benefit from being created as early as possible and then kept alive so they level up. If you create them outside the demo area, they'll be too low of a level to be useful. If you create one or two cryoas as soon as you can, though, and take care to keep them alive, they'll be useful for much of the game.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Namine]

aww , All my creations have already died from whitespires xD.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Cryoas really, really benefit from being created as early as possible and then kept alive so they level up. If you create them outside the demo area, they'll be too low of a level to be useful. If you create one or two cryoas as soon as you can, though, and take care to keep them alive, they'll be useful for much of the game.

Dikiyoba.

To give you an idea of just how useful: in principle, a levelled-up cryoa is almost as good as a cryodrayk, and much cheaper. You could potentially use them right up to the endgame if you created them at a high level early on. Plus, for the first half of the game you're basically stuck with Cryoas and Vlish as the best available creations whether you like them or not.

[The Ratt]

Umm... Clawbug swarms can hold their own. Especially if they've been around a while and had the chance to level up, which very possible in this game.

[ex post slarto]

Clawbugs are fine. Clawbugs are better than in previous games, when they sucked. Clawbugs are not amazing. They are not as good as cryoa. They are not as good as vlish either, but they are substantially cheaper than vlish. The myth of clawbugs being amazing spread a lot around the time G5 came out, but it has been pretty thoroughly debunked.

[Dikiyoba]

You can get clawbugs early, and that lets them level up and be amazing for a while. You can't keep them until the end of the game, though.

 

Dikiyoba doesn't think it's a terrible loss, though. Why would you want to keep clawbugs with you instead of throwing rots and tralls around?

[Lilith]

Well, if you want to go Battle Shaping for the whole game and you put a load of points in it early on, then they're comparable to cryoas and vlish. You'll still run into a wall in the midgame, though, between the time Clawbugs and Battle Alphas stop being useful and the time you get War Tralls.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

a wall in the midgame between the time Clawbugs and Battle Alphas stop being useful and the time you get War Tralls.

When I played (on torment), I was able to sneak around and get Ghaldring to give me a skill into Tralls shortly after entering the southern map. I steamrolled for a nice while.

[Mukwa]

playing G3, G4, G5-- I have been playing G3 for a week -- so I can see the differences between the Fryoas, Cryoas and Clawbugs

 

for Demo's -- G3 letting one create roamers and Vlish is pretty damn cool.

 

As for the G5 Clawbugs -- yes I do create them early -- but the Plated Arty in G5 is better than the clawbug -- hands down. For early critters, I usually go in this order -- Fryoa, Cryoa, Clawbug, Plated Arty. (sometimes even bypassing the clawbug)

 

( I dont even mess with Thads) -- but I do make sure I am able to make a corrupted Thad for when I head to the depository later on.

 

edit: Yes I forgot one does see the create roamer cannister by the fort -- so technically one CAN create roamers in the G5 Demo -- but one cant use a roamer like one *can* in G3.

 

---

 

in G3, using the Searing arty and Cryoa are great, as the damage is very good. Using my Vlish and roamer is good too. I haven't used a Thahd Shade yet --but like I said above, I really dont use Thahds .. for the Demo area of G3, I would have to give the top critter slot to the Vlish of course.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Mukwa

edit: Yes I forgot one does see the create roamer cannister by the fort -- so technically one CAN create roamers in the G5 Demo -- but one cant use a roamer like one *can* in G3.

Oh, you can sneak in and nab the canister early, so you can use roamers for some of the Whitespire area.

Dikiyoba didn't like plated artilas in G4. Have they been significantly improved in G5?

[Mukwa]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Mukwa

edit: Yes I forgot one does see the create roamer cannister by the fort -- so technically one CAN create roamers in the G5 Demo -- but one cant use a roamer like one *can* in G3.

Oh, you can sneak in and nab the canister early, so you can use roamers for some of the Whitespire area.

Dikiyoba didn't like plated artilas in G4. Have they been significantly improved in G5?

True -- one can be sneaky and do that -- thx.

Yes, the Plated Arty's are imho worth it and the best critter one can use in the Demo area.. for the Plated Arty's; MUCH better HP and able to take damage (Which was my biggest gripe about regular arty's)

My 2 favs for the Whitespires-- Cryoas and Plated Arty's, as I like ranged support with effects most don't have a resist to. But, for the Depository -- make sure to use Corrupted Thahds with Regen Aura running -- makes for an awesome fight.