Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I just made a rather shocking realization. Torment doesn't just increase your enemy's damage and hit points, it reduces your resistances as well. What the hell, that's hardly fair! Pumping up the strength of the enemy is one thing, but shamelessly nerfing your character is another. If I needed any further justification as to why Avernum 5 is a cheap pile of garbage, I just got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Torment doesn't just increase your enemy's damage Quote: reduces your resistances as well But... those two things have exactly the same effect. Why would you be angry about one but not the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Torment doesn't just increase your enemy's damage Quote: reduces your resistances as well But... those two things have exactly the same effect. Why would you be angry about one but not the other? Because when my stat screen says 30% fire resistance, I expect 30% fire resistance. Buffing the enemies (or improving their AI) is one thing, but handicapping your character in such a cheap fashion as well, and not even having the decency to tell you about it, is just ridiculous. Jeff must be some sort of masochist, I can almost imagine what he was thinking when he rationalised this nonsense. "Hmm, OK, so I've made it that Torment difficult doubles the hitpoints and damage output of all enemies, meaning that any players will be hacking away at boss characters for 20 minutes. What else can I do to piss players off?" "I know, I'll automatically deduct resistance from the PC, so that they can flagrantly waste skill points on resistance boosting stats and not receive any noticable effect in return. Even better, I won't mention this anywhere in the documentation, so they'll need to play the game on both normal and torment to discover my little stunt. Tehehe, brilliance." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Torment doesn't just increase your enemy's damage Quote: reduces your resistances as well But... those two things have exactly the same effect. Why would you be angry about one but not the other? Probably because its not one, but both, so you get pounded into the a twitching pulp fastser than you would have if only one of them was in effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 It's not just that. Based on the incomplete and misleading information, you may make decisions regarding character creation that are downright detrimental. It would be like a world class fighter being told that the karate tournament he is participating in allows punches, so he spends most of his training time increasing his upper body strength. Except when the tournament comes around, oops, they tie his hands behind his back. Added to this, buff up all of his opponents with steroids and cybernetic arms, and he's in for the curb stomping of his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 By the way, isn't it amazing that every time I try to give this game another chance, I'm able to find something about it that pisses me off 10 minutes into gameplay? You'd think I would have learnt by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice ex post slarto Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Does Torment *actually* reduce the effect of resistances? I'm inclined to trust you since you were right and I was wrong before, but I'm surprised nobody has noticed that before if it's the case. Make sure you aren't confusing it with the method of damage reduction (extremely chancy, according to Thuryl's theory) or the calculation of stat bonuses to resistance (add-then-multiply, often disappointing), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Slarty is right in that armor and resistances aren't the actual number shown, but the chance for each armor piece to reduce damage. So sometimes you get damage reduced and sometimes it doesn't. Jeff explained this once, but I couldn't locate it. Edit - If I remember the explanation correctly, each percentage point of resistance has a chance to block or not block damage up to the resistance chance for the armor piece. So you can get less than your total resistance. This is why now that we can see damage penetrating and resistance, the percentage resisted changes each attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Squee and Beautiful Dumb Smile Does Torment *actually* reduce the effect of resistances? I'm inclined to trust you since you were right and I was wrong before, but I'm surprised nobody has noticed that before if it's the case. Make sure you aren't confusing it with the method of damage reduction (extremely chancy, according to Thuryl's theory) or the calculation of stat bonuses to resistance (add-then-multiply, often disappointing), I'm aware of the current hypothesis on how damage reduction works, and it makes perfect sense. But, it doesn't explain why my slith with an armour and fire resistance of approximately 35% fire resist/armour NEVER receives damage reduction on Torment, whereas that same slith receives the correct percentage reduction in normal. I'm assuming that there is some sort of invisible deduction to your PCs' resistances on Torment, similar to what occurs in Diablo 2 when you progress to Nightmare/Hell difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice ex post slarto Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Wait, he never receives any damage reduction at all on Torment? Assuming you mean he doesn't receive the expected damage reduction, one possibility is that part of the damage is added after resistance. I don't think that's likely, but Jeff has implemented things like that before -- see blessing and shield effects in Nethergate: Resurrection, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Sss-Chah Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 wait...you're complaining that the hardest difficulty level in the game is hard? just add extra resistances and you'll get where you want to be after awhile. it's not like, for example, 135% fire resistance will really give you 135% resistance to fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Abhishek Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Sir may I? Ok, start a new a game, take a mage character with divinely touched and leather armor and buckler. Hmmm, what you expect? Well whatever you expect, result will be 0 blocked. So untamed banana slug is correct here in that case. Hey whatz your name dude? Wait, lets take more observation, go to Azure gallery, in remenent area. Take all the buff but dont take the most basic buff of priest, protection, it just cost 4 spell point, what difference it can make in late game? The endured warrior will die within one shot no matter how many buff he has, if you wont cast protection, the cute mage will last two shots if you will cast protection. Not getting? Take invulnerability potion, but dont cast protection, you will take just as much as damage what you will only expect from a death curse. What such a small buff can do? Play dude... You will see.(this is not related to this research but this is really very frustrating). 3: The best place to take some hostile effect resistance is Haakai, take all the fire resistance and all buff.Fight. Write all your observation(write damage resisted and taken separately), now take only steel skin, write observations again, now play without buff and write again, compare all the three columns damage with the amount of resistance game displays, you will see that the actual mathematical observation what you were expecting to see without any buff will lie in steel skin buffed fight. Untamed banana slug is correct again. This is all I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Squee and Beautiful Dumb Smile Wait, he never receives any damage reduction at all on Torment? No. What I mean is that on Torment, if your resistances/armour are under a certain value (about 30%), you receive NO damage reduction whatsoever. Ergo. There is a 'threshold' resistance percentage value you must possess in order to receive any damage reduction, and even if you are above this threshold value, the damage reduction is far less than what is depicted on your stat sheet. For example: My slith has a fire resistance of 30%. On Torment, I receive *no* damage reduction when blasted with a fire bolt. On Normal, I receive 30% damage reduction from a firebolt. If my Slith has 55% fire resistance, on Torment I receive a damage reduction far less than 55% (somewhere around 15-20%). On Normal, I receive a damage reduction of 55%. This is what leads me to believe that Torment mode makes an 'invisible' deduction from your resistances when determining damage reduction that you receive from any enemy strike. If you doubt me, then simply start up the game as a human with Divine Warrior trait (armour 20%, or something close to that) and let yourself get whacked a few times by the undead, both on Torment and Normal difficulty. I'm willing to bet you will not receive any damage reduction on Torment, but will have a 20% damage reduction on Normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Abhishek Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 You are repeating my post. I already clarified it in first and third para. whatz your name dude? Calling untamed banana slug sounds strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Abhishek whatz your name dude? Calling untamed banana slug sounds strange. use ubs or just banana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice ex post slarto Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Very interesting. That means that armor and resistances are quite devalued on Torment, while Endurance and maybe even Parry are more useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug fractalnavel Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 This reminds me of the frail / brittle bones armor adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma Grimm Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 It may be that torment lessens the chance of getting the full 35% resistance, while on easy it's easy to get. Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug I just made a rather shocking realization. Torment doesn't just increase your enemy's damage and hit points, it reduces your resistances as well. What the hell, that's hardly fair! Pumping up the strength of the enemy is one thing, but shamelessly nerfing your character is another. If I needed any further justification as to why Avernum 5 is a cheap pile of garbage, I just got it. It does sound like your complaining because torment is to hard. While you do this, you seem to imply that avernum 5 has many flaws. If it has so many flaws, why did you buy it? If you didn't buy it, why are you complaining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Jon Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't know where else I can pay $28 and get as much bang for my buck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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