G5 without Shaping ?[G5]

[Mathusalem]

Hi !

 

I'm a new player in the Geneforge series (don't even finish G5 demo), but I'm not font of shaping / invocating / pokemon, so I wonder if it's possible to finish this game without spending a single point into shaping ?

 

I'm thinking for exemple to an agent, with a lot in diplomacy and mecanics, mental / blessing magic and combat only.

 

 

what do you think about it ?

 

 

Thanks

[Barzhal]

Not only is it possible, but I would encourage not spending a single point on shaping skills with an agent (actually infiltrator would be better). You can buy two points in each shaping skill if you join Alwan's faction (which I encourage even if you switch at a later time). You can craft several girdles to add to your shaping skills. Finally you can get a shaper robe, black pearl talisman, and volcanic fetish to add points too. You therefore can get 8-9 points in each shaping skill without ever spending a single point - not too bad.

[Lilith]

Geneforge 5 is probably the hardest game in the series to beat without creations, but it can still be done if you focus on mental magic to daze and charm enemies so you don't have to fight too many of them at once. It's sometimes useful to be able to make a temporary creation as a meatshield, but that doesn't really require a large investment: just keep a few pieces of equipment that raise shaping skills lying around to swap in if you need them.

[Men are from Slars]

You know, changing Haste had a huge impact on the way G5 could be played. I am really looking forward to seeing A6 with, presumably, the same weakened Haste. I think that alone will make the game much more interesting. Certainly it will change the optimal builds.

[Lilith]

I hope A6 improves mages a little to make up for it. The only good reason to have one around in the first place was for Haste, really (well, that and Unlock Doors in A4).

[Mathusalem]

Thanks ! My Agent is in the Testing Hall, searching for the Presence : I killed it once but I can't find how to unlock the path to the south (protected by 4 Electrics devises)

 

Any Hint ?

[Men are from Slars]

And for Prismatic Shield / Arcane Shield, and for energy type damage, and in A5 for the very strong summons.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Iron Spiralite

And for Prismatic Shield / Arcane Shield, and for energy type damage, and in A5 for the very strong summons.

I'll grant you that Arcane Shield is pretty boss (although most of the time it's overkill), but how many things resist fire strongly enough to make Arcane Blow worth the cost? As for summons, priests get some good summoning spells too, and there's less randomness in what you get.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Mathusalem

Thanks ! My Agent is in the Testing Hall, searching for the Presence : I killed it once but I can't find how to unlock the path to the south (protected by 4 Electrics devises)

Any Hint ?

Having mechanics of 7 will allow you to turn off all fields, mines, and energy pylons in the Testing Hall. 6 will be enough for all but one.

It's a circuitous path circling counterclockwise around the place to get to the Presence. Just keep going until you see the room near the start.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Gah! Beaten to it!

 

Curse you Randomizer!

[Randomizer]

Sorry Master 1, it happens.

 

Originally Posted By: Iron Spiralite

You know, changing Haste had a huge impact on the way G5 could be played. I am really looking forward to seeing A6 with, presumably, the same weakened Haste. I think that alone will make the game much more interesting. Certainly it will change the optimal builds.

 

Haste has to be the biggest change in combat ever done since not requiring a minimum number of AP to act was eliminated in GF4. Not knowing if you can get a second full action changes the way you have to plan each round to be certain that you are healed and can attack. I used up more items than in preivious games to make sure I was fully healed early in the game.

 

It's part of Jeff's changes to make massive buffing less of a decisive difference in each battle. The other is reducing summons in Avernum. The priest summons are so nerfed that they are only good versus opponents with a mental attack. Mage summons even with the random element were actually better otherwise.

[Men are from Slars]

The mage summons really were much better in A5.

[Blurb]

Originally Posted By: Iron Spiralite

You know, changing Haste had a huge impact on the way G5 could be played. I am really looking forward to seeing A6 with, presumably, the same weakened Haste. I think that alone will make the game much more interesting. Certainly it will change the optimal builds.

I understand why it would be interesting as a character/build study, but it really imbalanced G5 and affected the playability of once-popular characters. For me, it limited character choices when both speed and battle magic were nerfed. It made magic users very difficult to play in general, and it also made playing singletons (for me) the new Torment.

[Men are from Slars]

How was Battle Magic nerfed?

[The Ratt]

Several spells were taken away. I have no idea if the spells that replaced them are better or not, but some people miss those old spells (essence orbs and arua of flames).

[Men are from Slars]

Actually, those spells were just renamed. Purifying Rain = Aura of Flames, and Shocking Rain = Essence Orbs. Shocking Rain actually got a boost of about 10 damage over Essence Orbs, too.

[Lilith]

It does seem like enemies in general have higher magic resistance, though. An Infiltrator in G4 could regularly top 500 damage with Kill; that doesn't happen any more.

 

Shocking Rain isn't quite the same as Essence Orbs: it now hits an area instead of up to three targets grouped together. That's generally an improvement, though.

[Randomizer]

Area effect spells make more creations mad at you without doing significant damage unless you make battle magic and spellcraft higher than in past games. Shocking Rain was generally not a helpful spell.

 

I found it was safer to daze and pick them off one by one.

[Men are from Slars]

Essence Orbs had the same problem, of course.

 

Area effect spells are horrible in Geneforge, it's true. They are convenient if you are playing on low difficulty and just want to kill things quickly, otherwise they are much worse than mental magic plus single target spells.

[Blurb]

I think the three spells that I noticed to be less effective in G5, but were staples in previous games, were firebolt, searer, and acid. Early on, they were pretty good, but didn't do too much as the game progressed. The PC seemed more susceptible to acid/poison himself while doing less damage with same to enemies. I was impressed with purifying rain (fire), though. Not sure if I just happened to use it at the right time (coincidence) or if it was a really good spell, but it was the area effect spell that seemed the most effective in G5.

[Drakefyre]

I played primarily as a battle magic/melee agent on Hard and didn't really have problems at all. True, I leveled up a lot in the first couple sections, but once I got Essence Blade, everything was easy. Kill was awesome, Burning Spray/Acid Shower were crucial, and Mass Madness and Temporal Webs or whatever were frequent battle additions.

 

My G5 Agent was averaging about 400 damage on Kill in the last section of the game. Essence Lance and Acid Shower let lingering damage take care of melee enemies that couldn't really do me any damage (I was taking about 20 damage from the most vicious melee creatures I faced, and in single digits from most) while I Killed, Dominated, etc. distance creatures.

[Blurb]

What were your magic stats, Draykefire? By the last quarter of the game, how many points did you have in Battle and Mental Magic, especially? Also, Intelligence? Did you use creations at the end (i.e., with stat-boosting items)? If you have come up with a good build, I might want to try it out. I'd probably go Infiltrator over Agent, but I'd still like to try to be successful with my favorite character from the older games. (I think Randomizer also had some success with the Agent with BM in the double digits, but I can't remember the build.)

 

Thanks.

[Randomizer]

I can't remember my exact build, but I got battle magic up to 10 near the start so I could one shot most creations. Using artifacts I had battle magic about 30 and spellcraft about 24 at the end. Mental magic was much lower near 15.

 

My build stress strength to wear the heaviest armor during the game. I should have put more into endurance since I usually was hurting for health during the game.

 

This build had trouble with the eyebeast in Lerman's Pass so you might want more in mental magic to control and daze the worms there. Also that area is easier with a decent physical attack so be sure to train in weapon skills when the price drops.

[Drakefyre]

Lerman's Pass was an area I had to come back to several times and test my strength. Eventually I got it by luring the Gazer out of the platform area, so I wouldn't get stunned into no action.

 

Loading up my last save, my skills were:

Level 51

HP: 626

Essence: 647

MP: 1294

 

Strength: 17 (12 without items)

Dexterity: 13 (11)

Intelligence: 14 (11)

Endurance: 8 (5)

 

Melee: 13 (9)

Missile: 3

Quick Action: 12 (7)

Parry: 12 (7)

 

Battle Magic: 13 (8)

Mental Magic: 13 (8)

Blessing Magic: 12 (7)

Spellcraft: 12 (8)

 

Fire Shaping: 1

Battle Shaping: 1

Magic Shaping: 0

Healing Craft: 6

 

Leadership: 10

Mechanics: 10

Luck: 1

 

Armor: 79%

Fire/Cold: 59%

Energy: 67%

Stun: 81%

Mental: 61%

Poison: 24%

Acid: 57%

 

Also generally 10 AP from Assassin's Boots.

 

And no, I never made a single creation. Charmed creatures worked well enough, and so does waiting outside some of those annoying radiating auras. Also, luring out monsters a couple at a time makes killing them much easier (although not quite as much fun).

 

Ice Spray is also good in the endgame, because most monsters don't resist cold when they resist everything else.

[Randomizer]

I found my last save for an Agent:

 

Level 51

Health 548

Essence 601

Spell Energy 1203

 

Strength: 13 (11 without items)

Dexterity: 9 (6)

Intelligence: 13 (9)

Endurance: 6 (5)

 

Melee: 8 (5)

Missile: 6 (4)

Quick Action: 7 (3)

Parry: 6 (3)

 

Battle Magic: 19 (14)

Mental Magic: 12 (7)

Blessing Magic: 12 (5)

Spellcraft: 15 (11)

 

Fire Shaping: 5 (1)

Battle Shaping: 5 (1)

Magic Shaping: 4 (0)

Healing Craft: 9 (8)

 

Leadership: 12 (11)

Mechanics: 10 (9)

Luck: 0

 

Armor: 85%

Fire/Cold: 67%

Energy: 67%

Stun: 78%

Mental: 63%

Poison: 39%

Acid: 67%

 

I didn't make the Assassin Boots and did well enough without them. Lots of resistance enhancements to reduce damage.

 

Symbiotic Cloak (resist effects enhancement)

Demon Fang Talisman

Quicksilver Plate (resist effects enhancement) (+1 AP)

Quicksilver Bulwark (+1 AP)

Girdle of Victory (damage attacker enhancement)

Firesteel Gauntlets (resist effects enhancement)

Charred Skin Greaves (resist effects enhancement)

Gladiator Boots (+1 AP)

Forbidden Band (resist effects enhancement)

Captain's Shiv

[The Ratt]

Well going back the the magic topic, I think my biggest complaint of Purifying Rain vs. Aura of Flames is that Purifying Rain doesn't hit everything within range.

 

Where is the symbiotic cloak, I missed it in my current run through (rebel).

 

Random: I'm how high would you suggest boosting melee for a melee/mental servile?

[Drakefyre]

I'd been using the symbiotic cloak for the entire game, and you get it pretty early.

 

I think high QA is more important than high melee ... anywhere above 5 melee you should be hitting every time, especially with some enhancement crystals on intermediate boots/armor/leggings/etc.

[Randomizer]

Litalia has a symbiotic cloak in her bedroom (Trakovite Haven) and in the Drakon fight in Fort Rockfall and rotghroth drops one.

 

I agree with Drakefyre, getting that second attack from high QA is more useful to increase damage. Strength to carry heavier armor and increase stun resisitance will also increase damage so you don't need that much melee.

[Mathusalem]

Thanks for the discuss guys !

 

I have make another game, with an infiltrator (melee, mental, mecanics) and it was quick until the end of the demo !

 

I'll buy the game soon. It's the first one of spiderweb I buy : the new GUI is fine and the game is a little more beautiful than avernum V.

I hope Avernum VI will uses G5's look & feel !

[Men are from Slars]

One thing to keep in mind is that QA has been nerfed from previous games. The chance of getting a second attack is now close to 3% per point of QA, and the 10-cap still applies, so pumping lots of points into QA isn't as efficient as it used to be.

[Violet]

Definitely possible. I have a Servile that uses no canisters, low magic, (War Blessing & Protection + Heal & Essence Enhancement) and no creations, and no ranged weaponry (batons, crystals etc.)

 

This is played on Torment (I don't reduce the difficulty). I've completed about 1/3 of the game, and is into the 30s in level. However, it definitely is getting hard.

[Blurb]

Thanks, Drakefyre and Randomizer, for the stat details. Eye opening. What really stands out for me are the points into strength. I used to pump strength in my Agents in past Geneforge games, but for some reason, I totally missed that on the build this time. She was way too vulnerable a target. Without hit and run (no true Speed), it was too hard to keep her alive. She needs heavy armor. Well, probably all singletons do. But, bleh... even thinking about battles like the Talis-Eye/worm/stun plants with a singleton is enough to give me hives. Drakefyre, did high dexterity do a decent job of avoiding hits?

 

Did either of you wish that you had pumped Mental up more or did those stats still work on the higher tier creations by the last part of the game? Also, melee? Would you shoot for higher after training?

 

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to get the courage up to give the Agent (or Infiltrator) another go at it.

[Randomizer]

Dexterity is only important for order of actions in fighting. After the demo area on Torment almost everything hits you.

 

Mental needs to be higher to be sure charm works. That becomes more important than strong daze because it converts an enemy into a target to divert the swarms away from you.

 

Melee is definitely needed to deal with Talis-Eye since that is his greatest vulnerability. I wish mine had been higher since that was my hardest fight versus eyebeasts.

[Lilith]

Dexterity also affects the damage you do with missile weapons, although that's not likely to be relevant unless you're playing a missile-heavy character.

[Violet]

Don't you just pay the trainer to train you in QA if you need earlier turns? I don't remember G4 or G5 (I used QA), but I know for sure at least in G1 & G3 that I never raised Dex / QA at all with my singleton Agent, and I always acted first.

[Drakefyre]

I put too much into Dexterity - I tried to avoid hits at some point in the midgame but it didn't really work. It's easier to just wear heavy armor and pump parry. Parry is definitely worth it in the later parts of the game - pretty much everything else stops helping, but parry seems to just get better, since you are adding 2% chance to parry EVERY attack, and late game attacks do much more damage.

 

I would say that I never really had much trouble with Charm/Dominate/Mental Madness except in the challenge area. My mental magic was around 9-12 for most of the endgame. 10 AP (you can make those boots pretty early) gives you a second chance too.

[Blurb]

That's disappointing. Dexterity used to be a good dodge tactic for the Agent. With no poison resistance (from Endurance) and no ability to dodge, it seems like heavy armor with +AP items is the way to go. Maybe higher Endurance is also important for more health. I think I totally ignored that.

 

I think I'm going to try a playthrough with decent Strength and Intelligence and high Mental Magic. I'd like stronger Melee, too, but I'm not sure if it's a good buy as a secondary strength. This is all starting to make me wonder about the Servile, who is very strong in battle and may be more useful in some of the worst battles (like the Talis-Eye). The Servile is the only character class I didn't try.

 

This is insane, but I may yet play this game another couple of times.

[Men are from Slars]

High evasion via Dexterity continues to be a good dodging tactic on Easy and to a lesser degree on Normal. It was *never* a viable tactic on Torment and Hard.

[Spddin Ignis]

use stealth

it works

[The Ratt]

I don't think you can win certain battles by stealth. Talis-Eye is a good example.

[Spddin Ignis]

you don't have to win battles, just don't lose

[Alorael at Large]

You can't not lose certain battles by stealth.

 

—Alorael, who didn't think about it while playing G5 but who is pretty sure anyway that the original idea of being able to win as a pacifist is long gone.

[Randomizer]

A pacifist will have to spend hours sneaking through several zones because Jeff made them combat clearing only. While someday you might be able to charm them to fight amongst themselves, you have to be ready when your charming personality fails to win them over.