Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Okay, as we all know, Geneforge 4 was a low time for Shaping and a slightly weakened time for the Agent. Now with G5 out, it was time to balance the tables. Give a little to shaping, get a little from Melee. A little. A. Little. Not a rocket launcher made of nerf. Letsa take a look at the Servile, shall ve? First problem is the fact that now Serviles have to stay away from battle magic, since it has been downgraded so that even Agents have to use some mental magic to stun then pea-shoot. So using battle magic with Serviles is like to dissolve a brick using spit. Secondly, maybe its just because I never used daze in G4, but is it just me or can even a Servile just daze and pick off enemies one by one? Even humans fell to my daze spell. I can only imagine what an agent could do with it. After exiting the Astoria place, (forgot the name at the moment.) with my newly equipped Level 15 Servile, I felt pretty good, and that my Servile would start becoming more and more efficient. I was wrong. Even with his good stats and great equipment, the bugger wasn't doing so hot. After a little bit of frustration and boredom I decided to make a battle shaping shaper for the heck of it, having heard that the battle shaping is now actually respectable. My result was pure awesomeness. Even with Thadds, my shaper was deadly. And I could still use daze and a little bit of battle magic. I started to think that this might just be a beginners boost, something to keep you on your feet. But when I got to Astoria, and got me revved up Clawbugs and equipment, AT LEVEL 9 and was beating the crap out of things on a higher difficulty. Something in that picture is wrong. This was my first shaper attempt and I have been using Serviles and Guardians throughout Geneforge, now I have not tried the Agent or Warrior yet, due to me not having access to the computer which holds the game. Anybody else feel the same way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 The main change is that there are more levels for characters than in any other game. Plenty of room to increase skills to levels that you couldn't in older games. DV came up with the battle creation shaper model after beta testing was done. By that time Jeff was set in making battle creations better and reducing it for some other creations. Serviles are still great, but you need to play more to their strengths and use fighting skills instead of battle magic. Nothing is wrong with them, but they aren't quite as powerful as in GF4. DV did show that a high endurance tank (turtle servile) works great. Battle magic isn't as great by itself as in older games. Mental magic is really needed for swarms. Daze and the related spells are more important than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Xelgion Okay, as we all know, Geneforge 4 was a low time for Shaping what Seriously, Geneforge 4 was the game that introduced Wingbolts. You could steamroll the entire second half of the game with them. Calling G4 "a low point for Shaping" pretty much disqualifies you from ever saying anything about game balance ever again. Shaping and mental magic have been top-class abilities in every Geneforge game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Lower time, per se. Serviles could not exist and still be good in the previous Geneforges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Barzhal Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 If shaping were at a low point in any game it would be GF3. Having Alwan and/or Greta available reduced the need for support significantly. GF2 would be second, there are all sorts of creations and random things to pick up (roamers, rats, thahds, a servile, etc.) GF4, if anything, brought back the need to shape powerful creations. I found this especially true battling the Titan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gnaeus Pompeius Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Shaping is much more powerful in G5 than in G4. Perhaps Xelgion thinks that this automatically means that G4 was a low time for shaping. But compared to G1 - G3, the main differences were that G4 didn't have the same 3rd tiers and that you were more liable to get your early creations killed frequently(at least for me). Battle creations didn't endure much in G4, so creations were treated as disposible. In G5 on the other hand the forum had a thread going in which DV pretty much wiped half of Terrestia clean of everything that moved using a couple of plated bugs, alphas and a solitary vlish by the name of Delicious. So, yes G4 was a low time for shaping if you compare it with G5. Otherwise, not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Battle creations have been terrible in every game until G5, in which they become highly effective. (This is mostly anecdotal, as I've never used battle creations beyond thahds as minesweepers. Did clawbugs and rots get a big boost in G5?) Fire and magic, on the other hand, have been solid all along. Their fortunes don't wax and wane so much as other classes' abilities get better and worse. —Alorael, who will say that shaping has been a relatively easy way to win in G4 and G5. He can't judge much before that, but none of the demos have been anything but cakewalks with some fyoras/cryoas/vlishes along for the ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Alorael Did clawbugs and rots get a big boost in G5? I believe rotghroths and especially rotdhizons have always been good for battle creations. Dikiyoba isn't sure about clawbugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Paladin95 Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I've never had any success with Clawbugs until G5. Up until then, Rotgroths were pretty much the only worthwhile battle creations thanks to acid and double attacks. The other battle creations hit for below-average damage against most enemies in G1-G4, especially when you could be using a hardier Drayk, a superpowered Wingbolt, or a swarm of Vlish with auxiliary effects. Rotdhizons are my favorite G5 creation, though. I saved up cash and had two by the time I hit Perikalia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Blurb Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I think I remember seeing a post indicating that clawbugs had some sort of boost in G5. They do clean house until about 3/4 through the second region. Vlish, too. By the third region, it's time for upgrade. (I do hate thinking of them as "expendable," though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Alorael: Battle creations in G1-G2 were pretty good all around. It's G3 when Battle Creations began to suck the acid clands of Artila's. Fire Creations and Magic Creations were still a tad better, but in all Battle Creations could still bring in the punch. The Battle Alpha in G1 in particular was quite effective. Rotghroth's have alway's been effective, but they were rendered almost useless with the advent of the wingbolt, which for the same amount of essence as a Rotghroth, steamroll everything in G4. The Last Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gnaeus Pompeius Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Fire Creations and Magic Creations were still a tad better, but in all Battle Creations could still bring in the punch. The Battle Alpha in G1 in particular was quite effective. Therein lies the main problem with battle creations in G1-4. In G1, even if you have a lot of essence, it's better to save it for Glaahks instead of Alphas as you yourself admit that Magic creations are better than Battle creat. Aloreal has a point, because compared to the other two, Battle creations take a back seat. This was arguably remedied in G5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I said a tad better, not a whole lot. There were times where the Battle Alpha becomes more useful than Glaahks. For G1-2, its much smarter to have a mix of creations, in this case means have a Glaahk around to stun and a Battle Alpha to beat and take hits. A beefy Battle Alpha can act as a meat shield, since it has much more health. Glaahks can not. Battle Alpha's can also cause much more innitial damage than the Glaahk. The Ghaalk does not. The Glaahk is cheaper in essence, which makes it more useful to Melee or, less commonly, Magic Casting oreinted builds, who need to be a bit tacky with the essence. The Battle Alpha is not. A Glaahk can stun a target. A Battle Alpha can not. Also, if this post comes off as somehow rude, its not intentional. The Archon loves arguing about this stuff. Honest! And just to be clear, I'm speaking in terms of the G1-2 Battle Alpha vs the G1-2 Glaakh, back when they were more or less on equal footing. This was before Battle Creations began licking Vlish Tenticles. The Last Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Battle Creations began licking Vlish Tenticles. The Last Archon Kinky. Anyway, the reason I said it was a low time for shaping was because this was the first time I felt melee could actually be good without shaping. I tried G1 with a non Shaping Guardian and epically phailed. G4's new servile + gloves of savagery let us melee users rise to power, so naturally, my servile could get out of the ass levels in Melee with enough magic to get all the buffs. It was beautiful. Now with Speed being made WORTHLESS, Serviles and such are having a harder time. Now the aura system I am okay with, but I really think speed should of been the same, except less powerful. (I.E giving 3 speed instead of 4) and now with the uprising of Battle Creations, we Servile players have no where to turn to. Except black skin greaves and assassin boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma olop4444 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I tried G1 as a non Shaping Guardian and epically raped everything in the demo area. Everything died in one hit, while doing next to no damage to me. I had like 20 unallocated skill points. I think I was on Normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Yeah, melee can be incredibly strong in G1 (which also helps battle creations). In later games it was toned down while stronger spells and creations were added, which really stacked the deck against the Guardian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Don't speak of G3 to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 A few comments. Battle creations did not suck horribly until G3, because in G1 and G2 all melee did 1-8 damage per level instead of 1-4, and particularly in G2, damage from magic and breath attacks used lower dice. G3, however, was hardly the nadir of shaping -- it was, along with G1, the peak! The stat-bonus rule wasn't broken like in G1, but Vlish -- due to not being rebalanced while most everything else in the game was weakened -- were completely broken. A shaper could steamroll the entire game on Torment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 How was G1 the peak? The shaping still had level caps and guardians and agents could get the same levels over and over. (I.E. A guardian could get 3 QA and 3 Anatomy), I thought, if anything, G5's broken clawbugs which could own on torment with AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Stop listening to DV. Clawbugs aren't broken in G5. They are good, for the first in the series, and possibly better than other creations when you get them, but they aren't head-and-shoulders better than anything else. In G1, freshly made creations got one point in each basic stat PER LEVEL, instead of per two levels as in all the subsequent games. There were also fewer differences between creation types, so a shaper could pump magic shaping and make a killer artila with loads of HP and an attack as strong as anything, etc. Also consider that there were FAR fewer spells in G1, and no Parry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 But we had critical hits that made it so that a level 4 Guardian do 121 damage to an armored servile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Do you mean Anatomy? Guardians were fun to play in G1 and did loads of damage, I don't question that. Getting to 30 Anatomy and 30 Quick Action by level 10, was FUN! But they had a much harder time surviving than in later games. Reliance on non-ranged attacks was also much more of a problem under the old AP system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Xelgion Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 G3 was the lowest time for Melee. G2 Had a broken parry. G4 Had the old speed system and the new AP system G5 Had the new AP system, but the new Speed system G1 Had the old AP, old speed, and old leveling system. It's kinda hard to choose which game, G1, G2, or G4 had the best time for melee. My guess would be G4 due to there being a servile thus being to get speed and other magicks easier than the Guardian. But hey, Originally Posted By: Power Card v. Infinite Start Getting to 30 Anatomy and 30 Quick Action by level 10, was FUN! Endurance & Health in G1 was a pain in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Um, is this even a question? G2 was the best time for melee, several orders of magnitude better than the runner-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Feo Takahari Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Originally Posted By: Power Card v. Infinite Start Um, is this even a question? G2 was the best time for melee, several orders of magnitude better than the runner-up. So it was by my sheer ineptitude that, playing as a Guardian in the second game, I was literally incapable of killing rotgroths and gazers? (I didn't pump a ton of points into Parry, but I certainly didn't neglect it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Pumping a ton of points into Parry made you nearly untouchable in G2, *and* gave you free riposte. Sure, you still needed enough HP to take a hit once in a while, but QA was better and melee dice were still 1-8 so it wasn't as hard to keep damage up to par. I forget how high I pumped Parry, but definitely to at least 20. In G2 it's really worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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