mikeprichard

Cool, thanks. That was one reason I was planning on waiting until a patch came out. I did also see someone reporting save file corruption issues (or something about someone walking around with a spear equipped that suddenly disappeared? - some weird stuff I can't find again on the forums right now), which would be nasty, but I guess I'll just hope that doesn't happen to me.

Have fun - I'm just starting on Normal, but I think that group should see you through Torment. Later!

Nobear - great ideas; I'm stealing them! Recovery on the fighter is probably redundant with his QA, and the loss of Fast Recovery on everyone except for the "main" priest (it makes sense for him at least to have that from a roleplaying perspective) is more than compensated for by having 3 Mass Healers. I'm updating my older post with your suggestions; good one.

So it looks like all level 3 spellbooks are actually in the game and accessible in version 1.0 for Windows/Mac? I thought I read somewhere that some of them were still missing/bugged.

This is why I plan every skill, trait, and training point for each party member before I start a playthrough. Totally not obsessive at all.

Ahhhhh OK!

Good question - I was also wondering whether that trait pick was worthwhile compared to maybe the Luck traits or something else. 2 extra summoned monster levels per Summoning Focus trait sounds really good if you actually use summons, but I'm not sure how it works out in practice - or if it works at all with Simulacrum.

Darn, bad news. It's not a huge problem if you plan for it, but if you train your two points before you "max" the skill (at 10 for most skills), you'll only be able to get the skill to 10, not 12... which is very annoying for us min-maxers.

Minor typo in the initial nephilim castle - the nephar chieftan's dialogue has him shaking his "hand" instead of his "head" (the latter makes more sense in context). Speaking of which - no offense, Slarty, but I think you've misspelled "retroactivity" in your sig. Obviously not important; I'm just nuts.

I was also wondering if it still worked this way in A2:CS. I hope not, but please let us know if you do test it out!

Thanks, Lilith; I get it - so I'll probably max at Swordmage x3. And Slarty, I'll look out for those armors; they might free up another trait or two to test out the XP bonus traits. Again, I vaguely recall they only added barely another level by the endgame in A:EFTP (nothing to sneeze at, but not mind-blowing) due to only tacking 5-9% onto the diminishing monster XP returns, but I could be misremembering and/or they could be better this time around, depending on how XP is distributed.

I'm not quite clear on how Swordmage/casting mage spells in encumbering armor works. If you start with the ability to cast mage spells in up to 5% encumbering armor, and each Swordmage trait adds 10% to that, how would only two Swordmage traits (10% + 10% + 5% = 25% encumbrance as max for mage spells) allow you to get to 30-35% encumbrance without incurring a spell penalty?

I'm definitely confusing my Avernums these days - good to know bows/thrown contribute fully to disciplines now (as they should!). I also noticed Lethal Blow is now (apparently?) no longer applied to magic damage, so I removed those unnecessary Lethal Blow +2s from my three magic users. As for traits, hadn't thought about the XP traits - they generally weren't too great an investment in older games. So which of my current traits (I've edited my original post) would you suggest switching out for Luck x2 and XP x2? And looky, this thread done got stickied.

Slarty - great feedback; I was unsure about some of those traits. 1) I'll dump Riposte Mastery x2 in favor of the extra Endurance x2 traits to get to max Endurance - otherwise, I can't think of anything more important for the fighter's traits. 2)&3) I see your point on the Healing Focus/Swordmage x4 seeming somewhat unnecessary, but again, I don't see much urgent need for trait points elsewhere (unless maybe in Endurance?). 4) I was trying to get 15 in weapons for all characters to get Adrenaline Rush without having to rely on equipment bonuses - so that's the reasoning behind the 10 in melee for all. But I guess if money is as plentiful as you say, maybe I can just train everyone in thrown weapons +2 as well to make up for dropping melee to 8+2 from 10+2 and still get that "natural" AR access (assuming in A2:CS, each point in bows and thrown counts as a full battle discipline point, and not only a half point as in earlier games)?

Thanks, Bonam - that's a useful reference. I'll do some testing when I get to the point of access for the FR trait. And I forgot about the tinker's gloves; right you are, Slarty. So I think I've pretty much settled on my tank/priest x1.5/mage x2 party - updating my prior post. Thanks for the advice folks.

Bonam - a completionist will also want 8 TU on one character for the level 3 Icy Rain book - so your Priest 2 would need to take Nimble Fingers x2 (EDIT: or tinker's gloves + Nimble Fingers x1 - thanks Slarty) for that. Or not, if you don't care about the book. Slarty - great, thanks. I'll mess around with the trait, though I frankly can't think of any other urgent place to put my excess crazy 24 trait points within my above plan. In general on this topic, I personally need to have at least one DW tank in my party - it might not be "optimal" (especially on Torment) in terms of the ridiculous power of magic damage, but having one dedicated double ginsu knife is just too damn fun.

OK, I'm becoming more convinced to switch one of my DW tanks over to a mage(16)/priest(8) combo. Last thing - how useful do you find First Aid and/or the Fast Recovery trait in the mid/late-game? You'll see I'm considering the 8 trained points of First Aid, plus one FR trait for each player, but curious how that would eventually play out in terms of post-battle SP recovery.

Yeah, but like I say, I'm still waiting for version 1.0.0.0.0.1... Thanks for answering the lazy question, all the same. So back to my original meta-question - do you/others find it at all tedious to play mostly/only mage characters when it comes to having slightly more micro-management in terms of party placement and SP management (compared to more dedicated tanks that can just walk up and kill single targets)? Or maybe I'm making too much of the issue. Like I say, I've always done two tanks/one priest/one mage, but I'm thinking of mixing in more magic this time around.

Hmm, interesting. Does this apply to all targets for AoE spells, or only on a target-by-target basis? E.g. if you target 3 enemies with a Cone of Cold, would the 90% to-hit be tested for each enemy individually (resulting in hitting 2 and missing 1, for example), or would you either hit all 3 or miss all 3?

Bonam - just note that the max priest/mage skill necessary in A2:CS (unlike in A:EFTP) is now 16, not 17 - so you might save a couple skill points there. Otherwise, my above priest/mage builds sound pretty close to what you're suggesting for your whole party.

Just from reading the forums (I'm holding off on starting a "real" playthrough until version 1.0.1 comes out to fix the remaining reported glitches, missing level 3 spellbooks, etc.), I'm slightly disappointed that Jeff seems to have taken another step in the wrong direction in terms of melee/pole/ranged vs. magic damage balance. He does seem to have made poles and (maybe?) bows slightly more viable, but - although dual-wielding is still probably the best non-magic choice for damage - the new 90% (vs. the previous 95%) to-hit chance cap (yuck) coupled with the increase in initial dual-wielding penalties seems a strange choice when faced with the fact that magic remains just as powerful - and maybe even more powerful, with the new Capture Soul/Simulacrum spells, for example. That said, I've always run parties in A4-A6/A:EFTP of two dedicated melee tanks (dual-wielding in A:EFTP), one dedicated priest, and one dedicated mage on Normal difficulty. I know the crazy Torment min-maxers often prefer an optimal party with only one tank and more priests/mages, but I generally like to avoid the micro-(ok, milli-)management of more magic users (e.g. positioning, SP management, etc.). But the continued nerfing of non-magic damage now has me considering changing up my original planned party build by throwing a lot more mage and priest spells into the mix (see below for new build). I also precisely planned the distribution of utility skills below: 12 total Cave Lore skill points counting the quest point on the first character - I do know you only "really" need 10 total to get all caches due to the Forager's Boots and First Expedition Ring, but whatever; 18 total effective Arcane Lore skill points through 4 Sage Lore, 2 Arcane Lore, and 4 Vahnatai Lore, allowing access to almost all spellbooks - except Spray Acid, Blink, Cloak of Blades, and Ward of Steel, as those require "pure" Arcane Lore, and except the Resistance teaching crystal, as I don't think the +1 Resistance from the crystal is really that amazing and I'd rather spend the Arcane Lore points elsewhere; 15 total Tool Use skill points including 7 (8 with the Tinker's Gloves) concentrated on one character for the Icy Rain level 3 book. Thoughts? EDIT (NEW PARTY BUILD): Human Fighter/Priest: 8+2 Melee +2 Poles +2 Bows +2 Thrown 10+2 Hardiness 10+2 Parry 8+2 Blademaster +2 Quick Action +2 Lethal Blow 8 Priest Spells 7+3 Spellcraft 10 Resistance 2 Arcane Lore +2 Cave Lore +2 First Aid +2 Luck Strength x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Mighty Blows x3, Parry Mastery x2, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator Human Priest/Mage: 8+2 Melee +2 Poles +2 Bows +2 Thrown 10+2 Hardiness +2 Parry 14 Priest Spells 7 Mage Spells 7+3 Spellcraft 10 Resistance 7 Tool Use +2 Cave Lore +2 First Aid +2 Luck Intelligence x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Swordmage x4, Elemental Focus x1, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator Human Mage/Priest 1&2: 8+2 Melee +2 Poles +2 Bows +2 Thrown 10+2 Hardiness +2 Parry 16 Mage Spells 8 Priest Spells 7+3 Spellcraft 10 Resistance 2+2 Cave Lore 2+2 First Aid +2 Luck Intelligence x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Swordmage x4, Elemental Focus x1, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator

Thanks, Lilith - I'd think so too, since NF counts as regular TU points for everything else as far as I know (at least, it did in A:EFTP). And with this, I've now completed my OCD party build planning - bring on the game!

Is that 8-point requirement met by Nimble Fingers (e.g. 6 "regular" TU points + 2 Nimble Fingers)?

Posting late on this, but I immediately noticed this as well, and agree it should be fixed.

Thanks, Hexcel - I was confusing the re-re-makes with the re-makes.