mikeprichard

Avernum 3 remake: Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Slimes. You heard it here first.

Right, Colchis (like Appleton, Erox, Execa, etc.) wasn't included in the list, as it can't ever be considered a "friendly" town. Unless you consider the slimes friendly...

I actually think you're right about certain special encounters needing VL; I'm just not sure which ones they could be, and don't want to give you any misinformation. So if you're just starting a new game and wouldn't mind helping out, it'd be great if you save before each cache/VL book, then edit the skills by a point at a time to test the exact skill values required. I only got kind of serious about this thread after I was several hours in, and don't quite have the dedication to start over and do this myself, but just throwing it out there if you're really interested in this. You would be advancing the cause of Avernum 3 min-maxing analysis. So there's that. EDIT: I just remembered you can't actually edit Vahnatai Lore in the Character Editor (though you can still edit Nature Lore and Intelligence - NL's "base" stat), and I doubt you want to run back to Ghikra and buy 1 point at a time every time you run into a VL event (although there aren't that many of those, I think). But do whatever works.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to nail down exact amounts of required Rune Reading and Vahnatai Lore (or Nature Lore - not sure where Earth Empires got that ~23 NL value for caches, though it's likely to be pretty accurate from my limited testing); that's why I've still got ?s next to those issues in the OP. But I can tell you I bought 5 levels of VL for each of my 4 PCs in Ghikra relatively early, and I never encountered any related events afterwards I couldn't handle. You also get at least 5 free points for each PC at various points in the mid/late game (including 2 points in the Defiled Crypt), but in order to get them, you'll need at least a couple points of VL on your characters to start with. Not sure about special encounters (what exactly those might be, and how much they might need), and digging through the old forums is turning up a lot of conflicting info - or no info at all.

Pathfinder doesn't have any effect on general poison resistance, if that's what you mean; it will only help you avoid damage from walking on terrain like swamp (poison), lava (fire), etc. Anyway, you'll find that at 20 total points, you'll still occasionally get poisoned from walking on swamp terrain. But at 40 points (10x4), I'm no longer having any issues at all with either swamp or lava, at least not so far.

Yeah, that's what I'm finding, too. But the A3 remake should be coming out in about two years (after Avadon 3), so I'll be looking for you fine folks to do your thing then. I'll probably revisit this list to update it for the remake as well.

I've found that 20 total points of Pathfinder in your party will get you through swampy terrain without getting poisoned 99% 95% of the time, while 40 points (or possibly less) seems to allow you to even walk on lava without taking any damage. That said, I haven't focused on testing that skill, but if you're planning a new playthrough, feel free to post anything you find through your own testing here, and we can make this a mini-"Strategy Central" for A3, at least for skill info.

nikki - OK, I should've known that; I've seen Jeff post on the forums occasionally. Also, confirmed that Vahnatai Lore points add to the Rune Reading point total, and updated the OP.

Thanks, Slarty! Too bad you and Randomizer et al. weren't working your magic to Strategy Central-ize these older titles back in the day, but hopefully this info is useful. Note that a site admin did add a link to the sixth post in this thread (which should probably now just point to the first post in the thread due to my recent edits) to the header of the main First Trilogy forum a couple years ago, but pinning it is very convenient. Anyway, cheers.

Edited the OP based on my further testing to emphasize that even after timely solving a related monster plague, the smaller towns in each region, while not suffering further structural damage or occupation by monsters, will still suffer from missing NPCs as time goes on. This is important, as several NPCs in the smaller towns (Spurn, Shahpur, etc.) are involved in quests, so if you wait too long to resolve those quests, you risk being unable to complete them at all. Of course, you can always try to reset the day in the Character Editor, but that comes with its own risks.

nikki - thanks for the info; I'll start digging through the BoA forums. And as for Tool Use, I was relying on Jeff's post in an old thread (http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/10372-party-useful-skills/#entry117462) I had initially thought was about A3, but was in fact about A4 and was misplaced in the "First Trilogy" forum (site admins, moving the linked topic to the "Second Trilogy" forum would be appreciated). Anyway, I've fixed the OP - cheers.

I've done additional testing with varying levels of the Barter skill at different merchants using the Orb of Thralni (5,000 gold item value) for reference, and can now confirm with 99% certainty that a total Barter skill of 20 - not 18 or lower, as some older forums posts indicate - is needed to get the maximum 45% resale rate at all merchants in the game. For example, Carson - the same merchant in Lorelei who teaches you the skill - had resale prices of 25% of item value at Barter 0, which was among the worst I've recorded anywhere. As I incremented the Barter skill, his resale rates increased by 1% for each point of the skill until skill 20 (45% resale rate) was reached. Further skill increases above 20 had no effect on his or any other tested merchants' resale prices, including merchants such as Grove in Sharimik who had originally offered resale rates of 30-35% at skill 0. I'll continue checking merchants as I play through later areas and revisit earlier ones, but I think I'm now good with Barter; updated the OP.

Sure. I've also been trying to pull together some basic A3 skills info, since a lot of the old information on the forums is either unsubstantiated by testing or just wrong. Anyway, have fun.

Nope. Hardiness (not Defense - many old forum posts are incorrect on this point) will reduce encumbrance for purposes of calculating the AP penalty, but to cast Mage spells in encumbering armor, you'll still need to take the Natural Mage trait.

(EDIT: See original post. Tool Use does not enhance Unlock Doors in the original trilogy.)

Now that I've started my third playthrough of A3 (I just finished A2:CS, and am back in the Avernum zone), I've decided to perfect my old list, which I've now moved to the top of the forum topic for easy reference. I've added the correct Bolton timeline to the slime plague section in the list thanks to alex's old tip; I'll also be updating the list soon with final confirmed data for the few towns I hadn't tested two years ago when I first started the topic. Cheers!

(EDIT: See original post. Tool Use does not enhance Unlock Doors in the original trilogy.)

OK, thanks - so I'm guessing 20 Barter is around the max that has any effect on sellback prices at all merchants. I'll probably do some more testing as I get further along in my own playthrough.

I'd be interested to know if you find merchants that still give better buy/sell prices above Barter 20 (for the whole party) - I'm still not clear on that from reading through old forum threads. The only mostly consistent thing people have said is that sellback prices cap at 45% of base item value, but there may be some lousy merchants that don't reach that cap until Barter is higher than 20 - if ever.

Thanks, Ishad - so apparently there are variations in prices between different merchants even at "max" (5 points per character) Barter skill; I thought I remembered that from the last time I played a couple years ago as well. (EDIT: confirmed this from older threads.)

Earth Empires - great, thanks! Just to clarify a couple things: A new party with two magic users already starts with about 30 total Rune Reading, so are you saying a level 1 party can already access all level 3 spells etc.? I must be missing something here. Also, is Vahnatai Lore checked completely separately from Rune Reading, or does it just add to the same Rune Reading pool? And for Tool Use, the actual max total needed is more like 20-25, and you're saying 15 "base" plus points from items gets you there, yeah?

I'm planning a third playthrough of A3 after a break of several years, but since there aren't any shiny Strategy Central posts on the forums for the older remakes, and I can't find definitive info on some skills by searching around, I'd appreciate confirmed answers for the below. Cheers! (Answers courtesy of Earth Empires, Ishad Nha, Nikki, and old threads such as http://spiderwebforu...ore#entry125341 and http://spiderwebforu...ge__hl__barter.) Rune Reading 1) What is the maximum total value needed across the party to learn all spells and get all other benefits from this skill throughout the game? ANSWER(?): ~30. 2) How does Vahnatai Lore interact with this skill (e.g. which/how many spells can only be learned by having Vahnatai Lore, and at which value)? ANSWER: Vahnatai Lore points are checked separately from Rune Reading for certain spellbooks (such as Capture Soul and Simulacrum in Ghikra, Return Life in Lorelei, Divine Host in Moon, and Radiant Shield in the Defiled Crypt). In addition, they are always counted as Rune Reading points, and therefore assist in understanding all other spellbooks. Nature Lore 1) What is the maximum total value needed across the party to get all caches in the game? ANSWER(?): 23. Tool Use and Unlock Doors 1) What is the maximum total value needed on one character to disarm all traps in the game? ANSWER: 29. This is the value needed to disarm the traps in Sharimik's City Hall; the most difficult traps after that are two cabinets in the Golem Factory and one dresser in Erox (24), two other cabinets in the Golem Factory (22), and two chests in the Chasm of Screams (21). Other traps in the game only require around 20 or less. Note that the Rogue's Leather and Nimble Gloves each add 4 points to Tool Use skill when disarming traps, but fine/magic lockpicks don't add to Tool Use skill when disarming traps. 2) Is there any need for Tool Use once you have the Unlock Doors spell at level 3? ANSWER: Yes. Tool Use is still needed to disarm traps. 3) Does Tool Use enhance the Unlock Doors spell if put on the same character? ANSWER: No. This mechanic was only introduced in Avernum 4. Barter 1) What is the maximum total value needed across the party to get the best possible item resale prices in the game? ANSWER: 20. This will get you the "max" 45% item resale price rate at almost all merchants (with the exception of Winn in Blackcrag Fortress, who requires a total Barter value of 29 to reach the 45% rate); i.e., merchants will purchase the party's items for 45% of the items' base values. Note that unlike other items, the resale price for spellshards and spellbooks is capped at 36% of their value (900/2500 for spellshards, 450/1250 for spellbooks). Note also that actual shop prices are never affected by Barter. 2) Do different merchants still offer better/worse item resale prices at the maximum effective Barter value of 20? ANSWER: No. At the maximum effective Barter value of 20, all merchants will buy the party's items at exactly 45% of their base values (with the exception of Winn, noted above).

Giving efreet their own graphic (instead of the ugly shambler graphic) would be great too, but I realize that'd be a lot more work than the chitrach graphic (assuming you'd just be recycling the existing chitrach graphic from previous games, whereas there are no recent unique efreet graphics to work with).

Correction: Garzahd drops a Blessed Armor Band.

One more - the "taunting" dialogue popups for the members of the Ten are a little mixed up in Angierach: I got the lich dialogue just outside the rakshasi door, and vice-versa (and this even though I'd already killed the rakshasi by the time I got to the lich door). And hopefully Jeff is breaking his own unwritten rule about not really reading the forums and is actually reviewing this thread. Guess we'll find out when the updated game versions are posted.