mikeprichard

I've been updating/correcting the above list (extracted/edited from the Synergy Style Item List) during my playthrough, but could someone smart please look at the game scripts (or explain in idiot layman terms how I could do that myself) to check the exact reputation change values for the below two events? (For the Alexie event: the first time you give her any research notes, you get a +3 in reputation, but there's a separate reputation boost for giving her the Helft papers, the value of which is unspecified in the Synergy list.) Thanks! z34 - Town Trakovite Haven Litalia - Quest: The Trakovite Hunter - reputation -? z45 - Fort Defiance Shaper Alexie - Quest: Return Shaper Papers - bonus for Helft papers - reputation +?

Great, thanks gents!

Thanks Nalyd, that's what I'd heard. I'm really just interested in how the base stats of a newly made creation of Level X compare to the base stats of a previously made creation that's been around for a while and leveled up to Level X.

In case anyone else is interested: I went through the Synergy Style Item List and searched for conversation options/quests/etc. that affect (or are affected by) reputation, and below is the excerpted (and in several places, compared to the Synergy list, corrected) result. (The player starts the game with a "neutral" Shaper/rebel reputation of 100, with reputation of more than 100 "pro-Shaper" and less than 100 "pro-rebel.") If you want to get the most quests/conversation options/loot before finally joining a faction in G5, you should stay close to and a little under reputation 100 (with a Leadership of at least 10). If you then want to join the Taygen faction, you can get a +10 reputation boost from Shaper Conason, which should give you more than enough to qualify. To join Alwan's faction, you only need a reputation of 100 or more, so if you've "saved" a smaller reputation-changing conversation option (+2 or +3), that should get you what you need to qualify. To join any of the other three factions (Litalia/Astoria/Ghaldring), you'll qualify with any rebel reputation (slight or otherwise). Happy powergamin'! z0 - Pacification Field Mehken - reputation question +2/0/-2 z1 - Town Minallah Roamer going rogue - kill it/calm it/give it time - reputation +2/0/-2 Captain Valenta - reputation question +3/0/-3 Twixx - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 z2 - Town Isenwood's Spire Agent Aluhra - reputation question +2/-2 Shaper Rawal - betray/don’t betray Mehken - reputation +3/0/-3 z3 - Foundry Promenade Krog and 4 thahds - kill/let leave - reputation +3/-3 z6 - Foundry Core East Mehken - reputation question +1/0/-1 z7 - Foundry Core Mehken as leaving after final fight - reputation question +3/0/-3 z9 - Whitespire Pass Mehken leaves - reputation question +3/0/-3 z11 - Town Mera Lel - will talk about meeting in fens only if reputation less than 100 Agent Micheline - betray Lel as Trakovite - reputation +3 Agent Micheline - Quest: Info for Micheline - quest completion - reputation +3/-2 Agent Micheline - Quest: Trakovite Lair - quest completion - reputation +3/-2 z12 - Town Haria-Kel Astoria - Quest: Aid Penta - can get quest only if reputation less than 103 Astoria - can join faction only if reputation less than 103 z16 - Infested Crossroad Sgt. Herne - tell him to force wounded thahds to fight/let wounded thahds return home - reputation +3/-3 z17 - Town Kaz Labaton - will trade only if reputation minus leadership less than 100 Labaton - Quest: Papers for Kaz (Helft papers) - quest completion - reputation -3 z20 - Below Nodye Pass Servile refugees and Felik - kill/let escape - reputation +3/-3 z21 - Nodye Pass Captain Kellan - betray tunnel - reputation +3 z22 - Town Penta Greta - refuse to talk/ask to join rebellion - reputation +2/-2 Arango - Quest: Shaper Papers - can get quest only if reputation minus leadership less than 97; sell at least one research note - reputation -2 Learned Dominic - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 Learned Dominic - will talk about Shadow Road only if reputation minus leadership less than 101 and helping Astoria z30 - Western Okavano 8 rebel warrior serviles - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 z31 - Southwestern Okavano Parl and Kaz warriors - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 Parl and Kaz warriors - help fight alphas but say no friend of rebels/help fight alphas and say friend of rebels - reputation +1/-2 Rebel warriors - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 z33 - Okavano Barrier Intelligent Ornk - attack/tell to stay - reputation +3/-3 z34 - Town Trakovite Haven Caretaker Eloise - attack (via conversation) - reputation +3 Caretaker Eloise - Quest: Reinhart the Trakovite - can get quest only if reputation minus leadership less than 95 Parsel - reputation question +2/-2 Litalia - reputation question +2/-2 Litalia - Quest: The Trakovite Hunter - can get quest only if reputation less than 100; quest completion - reputation -2 Litalia - if currently allied with a different faction, can join faction only if reputation less than 100 z39 - Hatra Ruins Reinhart and Addison - attack Reinhart alone/attack Reinhart if Addison helps/attack Addison - reputation +3/+2/-2 z41 - Town Perikalia Warzana - reputation question +2/0/-2 Preva - Quest: Help for Serviles - quest completion - reputation -3 Commander Illyara - reputation question +3/-2 Commander Illyara - turn in Preva - reputation +3 Commander Illyara - Quest: East Field Bugs - can get quest only if reputation plus leadership more than 99 z42 - Town Stormhold Pepoy - Quest: Servile Spy - reputation -3 Alwan - reputation question +3/-3 Alwan - Quest: Journey to the Drakons - quest completion - truth/lie - reputation +3/-3 Alwan - Quest: Control Core B - can get quest only if reputation plus half leadership more than 102 and completed Journey to the Drakons quest by telling the truth or by lying with leadership of 10 or more; quest completion - reputation +3 Alwan - can join faction only if reputation more than 99 z45 - Fort Defiance Shaper Alexie - Quest: Return Shaper Papers - sell at least one research note - reputation +3; give Helft papers - reputation +3 z46 - Abandoned Farms Sage Olipha - reputation question +2/0/-2 z47 - Mountain Crossroad Alpha 17 - when deciding what to do with it - reputation +2/-2 z48 - Fort Vengeance Cyprien - reputation question +2/-2 Guardian Genzleri - turn in Tima - reputation +2 Guardian Genzleri - kill Sage Olipha for illegal shaping - reputation +2 z51 - Fort Rockfall Commander Rossi - Quest: Amulet Recovery - quest completion - reputation +3 z53 - Western Wasteland Ravass and patrol - attack (via conversation: “I’ve changed my mind. Prepare to die, rebel!”) - reputation +2 z58 - Outside Gazaki-Uss Ukri – will trade only if say support rebels - reputation question +2/-2 z60 - Town Gazaki-Uss Greta - if have reputation more than 100 and ask her to vouch for you with rebels - reputation -6 Mehken - Quest: Lethia Pass - can get quest only if reputation minus half leadership less than 99 Phyllida - Quest: Phyllida's Amulet - can get quest only if reputation less than 97; quest completion - reputation -3 Ghaldring - reputation question +3/0/-3 Ghaldring - Quest: Break the Line - can get quest only if reputation minus half leadership less than 100 and agreed to fight Khressia Ghaldring - can join faction only if reputation less than 103 z63 - Dera Bridge Borun - reputation question +2/-2 z64 - Town Zephyr Oasis Denna - Quest: Free Camp Dranir - can get quest only if reputation less than 94 Federa - Quest: Camp East Alpha - quest completion - truth/lie about Genta - reputation +3/-3 Commander Pritz - Quest: Drakon Sighting - quest completion - truth/lie about seeing drakon, regardless of whether killed Ellek'Sss - reputation +2/-2 Sage Taygen - Quest: Reclaim Camp Dranir - can get quest (and therefore join faction) only if reputation plus half leadership more than 107; quest completion - reputation +3 Sage Taygen - Quest: Aid Platano - quest completion - reputation +3 z66 - Oasis Fields Sage Lara - when asked about your current reputation, she will give one of 5 answers: 1) If more than 108: You have earned the respect of the Shapers. The rebels will fear and mistrust you. And they are correct to do so. 2) If 102-108: You lean toward service of the Shapers, though your loyalty is not absolute. The rebels are nervous about you. 3) If 98-101: You are balanced on the knife edge, leaning neither toward the rebels nor the Shapers. A dangerous place to be, a place without allies. 4) If 91-97: You lean toward service of the rebels, though your loyalty is not absolute. The Shapers are nervous about you. 5) If 90 or less: You have earned the respect of the rebels. The Shapers will fear and mistrust you. And they are correct to do so. z67 - Lethia Pass Shaper Conason - if ask him to vouch for you with Shapers - reputation +10 z68 - White Wastes Camp Dranir - destroy rebels/destroy Shapers - reputation +3/-3 z70 - Dera South Shore Ellek'Sss - will train in magic and shaping only if reputation minus third of leadership less than 98

Thanks Slarty. So just to be 100% sure: regardless of the practical difficulty of raising shaping skills high enough to create new creations with levels as good as "long-term" leveled-up creations, the below two Fyoras will have the exact same base stats (again, ignoring the extra available skill points from leveling up Fyora #2), right? 1) A Fyora newly created with Fire Shaping 10 at level 12 2) A Fyora previously created with Fire Shaping 1 at level 3, then leveled up to level 12 I 'preciate it!

Rezzing this thread to check one last thing on G5: if I read the above correctly, there will be no difference at all (except for the extra skill points) between a creation that is created at creation level 30 (for example) which levels up to level 60 along with the character over a long period, and the same creation type created at creation level 60 from the get-go, right? (The reason I'm asking: I plan to play as a Warrior who only occasionally makes disposable creations, and want to know if - assuming I boost shaping skills - those disposable creations would be weaker than the same creations created earlier and kept/leveled up for a while.) Thanks!

Thanks Randomizer, that's what I figured. Compared to G4, it does seem there isn't as much need (or option) in G5 to plan large changes in reputation in order to get as many available quest rewards as possible, so I guess a middle-of-the-road-ish reputation with good leadership will basically get you through G5 until you finally need to pick a faction. Anyway, I'll work with the Synergy-style list and the walkthroughs and see how it goes. Later -

Thanks for the answers folks! So I'm curious - what's a recommended ending stat range for Intelligence, Mental Magic, and Battle Shaping for those who use something like the "sorceress and 7 war tralls with daze/dominate" strategy I've seen on the boards?

I've just completed Normal-mode playthroughs of G1-G4 with solo melee characters minoring in blessing magic and using virtually no shaping (I had a Guardian in 1-3, and a Servile in 4), and am now planning a Normal-mode playthrough of G5. My two main reasons for the solo melee play style are 1) I'm not a fan of micromanaging a large party of creations, and 2) I don't like my creations "stealing" my main PC's XP bonuses. But I've read that even more so than in G2-G4, a melee build is less optimal than a strictly shaper-type build from a powergaming perspective in the endgame - specifically, the recommendation seems to be a Sorceress with mental magic supporting an army of 7 war tralls. That said, since I'm still leaning toward a Warrior (for the two reasons above), but would like the option to shape a good team for endgame battles that are tough on solo builds, exactly how weak is a high-level Warrior compared to a Sorceress when it comes to late-game creations? From what I can see, the above argument for a Sorceress over a Warrior boils down to two stats (I'm ignoring the Shaping stats, since the Warrior and Sorceress are identical there): 1) Mental Magic: The Sorceress can obviously pump this stat higher than the Warrior, but does anyone ever really get this stat above 9 anyway? With purchased training (to level 3), 5 invested skill points (to level 4), and the Firesteel Gauntlets (to level 9), my Warrior's already there in the endgame, so I don't see the difference. 2) Essence/Spell Energy: Here's where I'm sure the Sorceress is stronger than the Warrior, and thus able to more easily support a larger creation army. But what exactly are the differences between the Warrior's and Sorceress's essence and spell energy pools in the endgame, assuming the same Intelligence? Unless the whole issue is the fact that a Sorceress gets more essence, I get the feeling I'm missing something major here - especially as I'd like my main character to be at least somewhat durable to avoid having to micromanage player/creation positioning etc., and the Sorceress definitely fails in that department. On the other hand, the issue might be simply that the "optimal" Sorceress build ignores player attack stats altogether, thus freeing up more skill points for Intelligence (and therefore lots of Essence for creations). But I submit the manner to the forum experts - thanks in advance for the tips! P.S. Does anyone bother raising shaping stats above 7 (i.e. just enough to get all upgraded creations)? If so, is there a huge difference in creation strength for each level above 7 (e.g. for a War Trall with each additional level of Battle Shaping)?

I'm getting ready for a playthrough of G5, and was wondering if there's a guide to rewards (gear from quests, available special areas, etc.) and consequences for having a certain reputation and/or joining a certain faction similar to Slarty's excellent G4 guide (http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4q.html). I've found bits and pieces of info throughout the forums (e.g. about the secret tunnel area that requires you to say you'll consider joining a certain faction), but nothing that really brings it all together. Anyway, I expect there's no such thing, but any specific min-max munchkiny powergaming advice for G5 would still be appreciated. (For roleplaying purposes, I'm considering the Trakovites for the endgame, but I'm still interested in how to game the factions/reputation for the MOST LEWT.) Cheers!

Thanks for the quick reply! Now that I know the Chapter 1 total is probably off by the 2 points, I can plan to grab an extra -2 from one of the optional conversations to compensate - and thanks to your insanely (in a good way) detailed work, that'll be cake. Peace! EDIT: Did some more testing (used a +1 conversation option with Mouawad to see how close I was to getting her first "loyalty" reward, which requires 105 reputation), and it turns out Slarty's end-of-chapter reputation subtotals as listed in the min-max guide are in fact correct. So I'm now thinking maybe at least one listed action's reputation effect was overstated by +2 in the guide (i.e. even though the listed guide numbers should total to 104 rep at the end of Chapter 1, you in fact end up with only 102 rep at the end of the chapter after doing all listed actions). Anyway, bottom line, something's off in the Chapter 1 numbers, but it doesn't matter in the long run - if you follow the Slarty guide, you should end up OK in the end. Thanks again.

All - sorry for 8-year-necroing this thread; since it's stickied in the Strategy Central section, and I think Slarty's still around, I thought it would be legit to get something clear here. Please don't yell. I'm fragile. Slarty - in your G4 reputation min-max guide at http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4q.html, you plan a net total of +4 to reputation in Chapter 1 (+2 Let Tycho go; 0 Help Serif's rebels escape; +2 Betray Burkes; -2 Intimidate Master Thell; +5 Walk Shaila to Forsaken Docks; -3 Guide Caravan through Cairn Gates), yet calculate total ending reputation for the chapter at 102. As the player starts the game with 100 reputation, shouldn't the total at the end of the chapter therefore be 100+4 = 104? Since it looks like you're planning to hit exactly 120 rep for the Ring of Eye's Purity, this +/-2 error in the first chapter could throw off my whole munchkiny plan. (I know there are a few extra minor conversation reputation options I could use to tweak the number and still meet the "plan" - with Alwan/Mouawad/Mars etc. - but I'm not sure which direction I'd need to take these without knowing whether the above is really an error.) Anyway, great work as always - cheers!

Pardon my 6-year necro on this thread, but can anyone please provide a current link to the G4 maps? The links in the OP are obsolete. Thanks!

I just tried to get into a replay of Avadon, and have to admit I couldn't do it. The linearity, the backtracking through the same relative handful of maps, the hard level caps (which I've hit 3/4 of the way through both Avadon 1 and Avadon 2)... in retrospect, it all makes me miss the good old days of Exile and the early Avernums. I guess the Avadon style is the "new" Spiderweb, but if Avadon 3 is like the first two, I don't think I'll be buying. I'm just looking forward to the remakes of Avernum 2 (fingers crossed for later this year?) and Avernum 3 (huge dynamic open world = best Spiderweb game ever). Anyway, just the ramblings of a Spiderweb old-timer. Cheers!

It wasn't until Avernum 4 that Jeff implemented in-game resistance etc. stat information that was accurate, so yeah, you're going to see resistances listed as more than 100% in Avernum 3 that aren't really 100%. I'm not sure what the caps are, but later game caps were usually in the 90-95% range. But again, the in-game info pre-Avernum 4 isn't going to tell you much - i.e. I have no idea whether "110%" really means 60%, or 80%, or what. Just look forward to the Avernum 3 remake in a few years, like me.

In my Normal playthrough, I had Dedrik in my party throughout the game, and I only ever invested in INT, with the whole middle skill column and the three main bottom skills maxed. He was a powerhouse with Spirit Claw.

Good news - Jeff responded to my email (I copied the list from my first post into the body of my message). Here's his response in full: "Thank you for the comments! It will be quite a while until I work on Avadon 3, but I'll certainly see how many of these can fit into the engine as written. Some of these will probably not make it into Avadon 3 but definitely into the Geneforge rewrites (which will use this engine)." Also, could one of the mods please pin/sticky this thread? I'd really like it to stay visible so other players can add suggestions as they see fit over the coming months. Thanks all!

Yeah, I was trying to make a funny... and an Avernum prequel would be pretty freakin' awesome.

Based on absolutely no inside info whatsoever, I'm thinking the progression will be Avernum 2 remake - Avadon 3 - Avernum 3 remake - Geneforge remakes. But Jeff is a wily one - Avernum 7 might also be next.

Yeah, good thing I don't post under my real name - I'd probably be in the dungeons by now.

Good suggestion, but I got impatient and sent the email already. I'm confident that my edited first post (from which I copied the suggestion list into the email body) isn't redundant, though. Also, the intention of the email was more to make Jeff aware of the list; hopefully he'll eventually check in as it continues to develop. I'd also really appreciate stickying this thread, but I guess that's up to the mods.

I've been curious about that - never been as big a fan of Geneforge as Exile/Avernum, but when is Jeff planning to start the Geneforge remakes? Or is he?

Funny, A3's the remake I'm looking forward to the most - it's by far my favorite Spiderweb game yet. Just goes to show everyone has different priorities!

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Jeff's sort of running out of steam these days. I think the (IMO) weaker story and quest development and much more linear style of Avadon compared to the earlier Exile/Avernum titles are symptoms of this. Not trying to be harsh; just looking to explain the changes I've noticed in the more recent titles myself. That said, unless Jeff suddenly switches from making RPGs to making first-person badminton games, the man will always be able to count on me as a customer.

Points taken - though hopefully enough of the regular playtesters have been reading/contributing to this thread for at least some of the points to be brought to his attention next time. I also agree with your "pet" peeve. As for your question on blank spaces - I had the same problem until I realized there's a "Toggle editing mode" icon in the post editing menu (top left). Click that, and you'll then be able to do more thorough text editing. Yeah, it's weird, but that's how it is.