Emperor Tullegolar

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie. Here is the first time: Quote: Originally written by -silver-: never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine) The second time was me repeating this. Don't call me a liar unless you know what you're talking about, please. As for the Drakon at the Cairne Gates, note that it says he is irritated by your request. He does not want to help you because he is feeling empathic, otherwise, why would he be irritated? No, it would have said they looked concerned. He wasn't concerned, though, so he much more likely agreed to help you because serviles are a valuable labor and fighting resource. He is pragmatic, not empathic. I still think the most powerful quote used so far in this thread is the one where Greta is killed by the unbound and it specifically says that the drakons remain emotionless. You say I ignore quotes, what do you have to say about that one?

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: I'd have expected you to think that the ending of Exile I was an "evil" ending. Well, I did put evil in quotes. Interpret that as you wish.

Diki: You're talking about a high combat zone, plenty of both Shapers and Rebels, so of course there will be chaos and loose creations. Plus, the servile you meet there explains that rebels have been disguising themselves as civilians to place mines.

Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: iv. The plot is very elaborate and cool. I tried for a similar level of intricacy as Geneforge 4: Rebellion. Does this mean there will be more than one possible ending, Geneforge style? Or does it just mean more scripted characters and events? Either way is great, but an 'evil' ending for an Avernum series game would be really cool.

Hey, those dumping pits and sealed labs and whatnot are not meant to be entered by anyone, ever. As for creations guarding key strategic areas, what makes you say that those are no better than sending rogues to infest farmlands, or areas directly ajacent to villages? It's much better! As for your examples: the Barrier Zone creations are under the direct control of Shapers, they can react to situations far more rationally than rogues. As for the ones at the Secured Crossroads, if they weren't there, the crazies at the Circle of the Drayk could escape, causing much more harm to nearby people (if there are any) than the shaper creations, which are bound to their area.

Quote: To that, I point to the reason that they had no need to. Of course they had need! People act like the drakons have it so much tougher than the Shapers do. It is noted many times that the Shapers are taking many casualties, they are reduced to hiding in their fortresses. Surely some super rogues would have been great to dump into provinces that they had aleady been lost. But they don't do that, it is against their principles. Only once the drakons had already screwed the world over do they finally release all they have. As for Monarch, yes, the rebels under Greta attacked him. Humans are able to resolve their differences to protect the innocent. The drakons have not yet been in a position where they've had to save innocents from rogues. However, I have a feeling that unless it would be to their own great benefit for them to do so, they probably would not come to the rescue. After all, they are openly willing to murder millions to win the war, so they've already proven that they care little for the innocent.

I was actually talking about rogue creations, but I'm glad you brought up rogue shapers. Note that whenever a shaper goes rogue, the majority of humans (especially in the case of Monarch) come together to eliminate the threat to the innocent. Humans go out of their way to protect the innocent, drakons do not.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: What do the shapers do at endgame when the drakons have had success with the unbound? By then, innocent people are already screwed. There is no longer a point to holding back once the unbound are released. The Shapers are definity not as bad as the drakons in this reguard. Quote: And rogue doesn't quite apply to drakons or a shaped human the same way it applies to a fyora who is out of control. The shapers group them together so as to justify their slaughter. There was not a single Shaper rogue in the first three games. I don't remember any Shaper rogues in the fourth game, but if you can name some, I would be interested. Quote: drakons are banned and serviles are not. Independant serviles are definitly banned. Does it make much of a difference that they can pretend to be stupid serviles? If they are caught living happily in a villiage (which is the way they want to live) they will die, reguardless.

It doesn't matter where it takes place, I think Geneforge 5 will come down to killing the leaders. Ghaldrings death will mean the end of the Rebellion. There may be scattered rebels here and there but without him to lead them their cause will collapse. The same goes for the Shapers, however. If the invincible Council is destroyed, any sense of protection they once gave the people will be gone, as well as the universal fear of shapers, the Rebellion's victory would be complete. In a sense, Eragon is right. The other games were fun and I'm not saying they were a waste, but the story could still easily go in either direction.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: Shapers do both. When did Shapers release rogues into the wild? They usually go through great lengths to control all of their creations (see Barrier Zone).

I think the Rebellion will take Terrestia. We need to see what the world is like under drakon rule before the end of the series. Even though I doubt it will change anyone's minds.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Although I have them on ignore, I can imagine the response. Wrong. But hey, now at least you have an excuse for being wrong. Retlaw: You can find quotes by opening the scripts folder which is in the files folder. In it, there are about two scripts for every area. You want the dialogue script, which will look something like "z72khimaussdlg.txt, " or whatever town you are looking for. Open that, and search through the dialogue. I don't think anyone has a text dump up yet, do they?

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: [then you're assuming too much. Am I assuming any more than anyone else? Quote: It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead. They guard their secrets, yes. But Waylander claimed that they were as violent as the drakons. Surely you don't see killing rogue shapers and creations as being on the same level as releasing rogues into the wild to kill at random?

I know they rule everything, but where does it say they kill anybody who stands up to them?

We say drakons are more warlike because it is all they ever do. Serviles fight for their survival as much as drakons do, yet they tire of it and often attempt to live on their own, away from conflict, something a drakon has never done. Drakons are also more aggressive, as can be seen by the fact that you can goad most of the drakons you meet in the game into a fight with relative ease. Quote: the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition. Does it ever say this in the game, or is this more fabricated crap?

I hope Waylander doesn't think that ignoring me is going to stop me from responding. Quote: Originally written by Waylander: It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art. No, I said it must have been serviles because I'm pretty sure drakons don't do manual labor. I can't prove that the serviles put those art spaces there for themselves, and you can't prove that the drakons did. That's why I sort of just let this one go. Don't you have anything better? Quote: Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound? It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this. I'll sum up some reasons why humans are superior to drakons, since you all seem to have forgotten them. -Humans are responsible for every single base creation. Even in the time since drakons have existed, they have come up with five (not including the drakons themselves, which they also created). The drakons contributions to the shaping art consist of minor upgrades of existing creations, the culmination of which is the unbound. This shows drakons have less creativity as well as less skill. -Humans can create and control drakons. Drakons can not create or control humans. This shows that drakons have weaker minds. -Humans in the game like to surround themselves with art, and, while I can't prove anything, the lack of any art whatsoever in drakon structures has been noted. -Drakons constantly shape themselves to be better and better. The humans of the Shaper Empire refuse to do so, remaining pure and unchanged, and yet they are still beating the drakons in the war as of the begining of Geneforge 4. This is a testament to human strength and skill. Whether this shows the drakons are weaker or just less competant I can not say for sure. -Humans can be anything, from farmer to ruler, from merchant to mage. Every single drakon encountered in the game is either a fighter, or in rare cases, a horder. They are single-minded, which makes sense because they are designed to be that way. For those that say 'they must all be that way because they are fighting for survival' remember that it was already noted that the serviles of Khima still found a way to live as respectable beings, despite the fact that their lives were in danger. The drakons never once show interest in anything other than war (or hoarding) and so I feel that I can conclude from that that they are incapable of those thoughts, and thus inferior to humans. -Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap. The fact that they would kill Greta to test the unbound is my favorite example of this, it even uses the words "without emotion." The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit. -The human geneforge was suprior to the drakon ones, despite the fact that the drakons had access to 200 more years worth of technology. The former turned its users into empire-forging deities, while the latter simply made ur-drakons, armies of which are still having trouble fighting unmodified shapers. -Drakon are terrible at politics and government. They have a dictatorship with Ghaldring at the top. When he is challenged, they spend all their time arguing (I can't say that the Rebellion ceased to function but I can say that the high command was all but useless during that time). How do they resolve their arguments? Do they talk it out and come to an agreement like civilized humans, and unite in the name of their common cause? No, one of them has to die for things to go back to normal. They solve problems with violence, it is the only thing they know (well, that and greed).

I'd like to thank my supporters. Even though I didn't need you, it certainly was fun to have numbers on my side for once.

Quote: Originally written by Slarty: A4 saw more whining and moaning and general uselessness. I don't get it, you guys should totally relate to the guy.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity. I'd like to hear that arguement. Quote: Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head. Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords. Is it bad analogy week or something? Does Ghaldring have some kind of parliament that I don't know about? And what exactly do you think the monarch of Great Britain does, anyway? I'll tell you: nothing! Figurehead. Has been for centuries. Dictatorships: I'm not going to waste time explaining to you how governments work. If you really don't understand, look it up. It doesn't matter anyway, we are talking about which species if superior. Are you saying that the ability to have a dictatorship is superior to the ability to form the governments that humanity has come up with? Quote: No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings. When has the game ever said anything about any of this? Stop making things up, please. Quote: The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar. Greta: "The youngest do not always recognize how powerful Ghaldring is." Neither does Waylander, apparently. What exactly makes you think Salissar is stronger? I'm very curious as to why you would think that. Quote: Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure. Sure, too bad Ghaldring's dictatorship is nothing like any of theirs. Stop comparing apples and oranges. Quote: Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal. I was actually calling it unsupported. Way to conviniently ignore that part, or did you not understand? Should I spell things out for you? Quote: You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion. So your subjective opinion is that bigger drakons and gazers are just as creative as all new war tralls, wingbolts, and kyshaks? Is that what you really believe? Do you seriously think that is what anyone believes? Quote: Me: Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]' You: Nope. I didn't think so. I actually have reviewed the examples in this thread, and all of them have been times when it was in the drakons' best interest to help those othe creations. Not once was it an inconvenience to them, either. Those examples are poor support for drakons being empathic. Quote: Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species. So, since drakons practice driving species to extinction (the unbound) that makes them better than the Shapers who practice genocide. I suppose this could be correct, though it's not exactly the strongest arguement for drakon superiority, is it? Quote: If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try. Well, you could just fight the person to the death. That's how drakons resolve arguments, anyway.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: 1. I'd argue that the form of government we observe in the Drakonian society is an oligarchy. 2. You seem to imply that dictatorships aren't complex. How are democracies, oligarchies, or aristocracies more or less complex than a dictatorship? 1. No, the Rebellion ceases to function when its leader is challenged. Only when the challenger was dead could bussiness proceed. They can't seem to operate smoothly without a single driving force to guide them. 2. Stop asking stupid questions. Of course non-dictatorships are more complex than a dictatorship, that's what makes them so much less efficient. Quote: In the animal world, Caesar would be what we call an 'alpha male'. In the animal world, Cromwell would have been what we call an 'alpha male'. Caesar came to power by gaining the love of the people, often by forgiving his political enemies. He then had to juggle both the Senate to remain legitimate as well as the triumvirate. The man was a political genius. Ghaldring came to power by being the biggest, strongest drakon. There really is no comparison. Cromwell came to power by using the parliament. Again, no comparison. Worst analogy ever. Quote: In the wild, the younger, stronger male usually becomes alpha male. However, in Drakonian society, we see the exact opposite. Ghaldring, a much older, wiser, and politically educated Drakon, is able to hold sway. You think Salisaar is stronger than Ghaldring? Wrong again. "You come face to face with Ghaldring. Now, at last, you can see that his disinterest and confusion was just an act. He radiates awesome power. It's almost painful to be near him." Quote: Drakons don't duel because it is some sort of ingrained animalistic behaviour. They do so because they have a rigid code of honour, where it is proper to meet your opponent, one on one. You can't keep saying you make supported claims and then turn around and post this crap. Quote: The Takers and Drakons have invented numerous creation types. Once again, check out the Taker dumping grounds. And if you try to claim that they were all based on pre-existed models, I'd merely reply with the observation that so were the Wingbolt, Kyshakk and War Trall. To bad we were arguing about creativity here. Are you saying that three different kinds of drakons is more creative than three all new strains of creation? Quote: I've put forward numerous examples which clearly demonstrate that Drakons do indeed feel empathy for others, which you have conveniently ignored. Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples?' None of the things in this thread prove anything, they've all been times when it was to the drakon's direct benefit to help the serviles. Don't confuse helping serviles out of the goodness of their hearts with helping temselves to preserve a work/fighting force. Drakons simply do not go out of their way to help anyone like, say, Guardian Kantor did. Quote: The Unbound aren't sapient. It matters not. You said that drakons do not kill things for the crime of existing. You were wrong. Quote: You might as well claim that chicken farming is genocide. I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certain that the point of chicken farming is to make sure the species thrives. I take back my earlier statement, this is the worst analogy ever. I can't believe I dignified it with a response. Dikiyoba: You missed the point. We were arguing about which species was more creative when I made that statement. Since Barzahl created the drakons, I give him more credit than the drakons, who only really made bigger drakons. Silver: I only made a comment about lying twice, and both times I was dead right. The first time when I called Ghaldring a liar, it turned out that someone had misquoted him. The second time when I called those gazers liars, it turned out that they were, in fact, lying. What they were saying was false. Proven so with game evidence. Go back and read if you didn't get it. Otherwise, if you can prove as ironclad as I did that someone is lying, be my guest.

The original drakons were created from drayks. Barzahl took some old drayks from Sucia, modified them, put them in tanks to grow, and the result was the first drakons. So yes, the first drakons did indeed come "from" drayks, but only thanks to Barzahl.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: The Drakon's have a complex political structure, as observed in GF4. There are clear protocols (aka. Council meetings, and Greta mentioning that Drakon political procedure is very long-winded), there is a clear social ladder, and alliances form depending on the Drakonian's idealogy. A dictatorship? Yeah, real complex. In the animal world, Ghaldring would be what we call an 'alpha male.' Salissar challenged the alpha male for leadership of the pack, and lost. Behold the complex political structure. Quote: A sense of honour. The Drakon's disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite the fact that they despise humans. Their system of honor is based on ritualized duels, another element taken from the animal world. Goats duel, too, you know. The assasination attempt was a sign of weakness, and for animals that value strength above all else, of course they would disaprove. Humans realize that there is more to it than brute strength, the drakons do not. Quote: A sense of humour. This is observed in the Council Meeting, where the Drakons laugh at Salassdar's humiliation. I suppose this, at least, counts as some kind of emotion. Whether or not it marks drakons as superior being I can't say. Quote: The ability to be creative. I've pointed out time and time again that the Takers/Drakons have constructed numerous fantastic variations of existing creations, and were responsible for bringing the Gazer into being. Emperor's response? "They haven't made as many new creations as the Shapers!" Given that the Drakon's have only been existence for a fraction of the time that the Shapers have, that isn't such a huge shock. In the time since the drakons have come into existence, the humans have come up with five (if your not counting Barzahl's, then still no less than three) all new creation types. You keep harping on the fact that the drakons are so much better than humans at shaping, then where are the products of this genius? The unbound? Bigger and shinier drakons? Please. Quote: Empathy for what they term as 'lesser species'. The Drakons as a species appear to have a maternal instinct to protect the serviles. Of course you want to protect a source of labor. This is common sense, not empathy. Their treatment of serviles at Khima shows that they have no empathy what so ever. Quote: A sense of justice. Drakons are able to recognize that killing a creature merely for the crime of existing is unjust. Hmm, yet they kill the unbound when they are finished with them. So just.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. Do Shapers make creations for pets? For company? No. Do they make creations to make life easier? No. Why do they make creations? War. And they don't even make tactical creations, like the Shapers (who have invented vast varieties for different situations), the only new creations the drakons have contributed are the unbound, designs for wanton destruction. They can shape new things, yes, but their only motive is destruction, and their new designed show this single-mindedness as well as a lack of creativity. Quote: PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?"; Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice." This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth." What? Yes it does! They do have another choice, they could have hid themselves (this is not difficult) and lived like those peaceful serviles. But no, their programming would not allow it. They must destroy, they must conquor.

I disagree. I just trolled you, didn't I?

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede. Of course it isn't going to say this, you need to figure some things out on your own, you know. I don't understand how much more clear it could have been. You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it. Quote: I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious. Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well. Quote: Neither you or Emp have proven such a thing. We've seen one or two Drakons who enjoy to hoard, whereas the rest seem pre-occupied with mounting a resistance against the Shapers. The entire Rebellion is based on greed. It is not based on survival, as Ghaldring spent time in hiding in between his 'birth' and his attack on Poryphra. They are places they can hide where the Shapers will not find them. It is not based on freedom either, since they treat other creations like crap. No, it is based on greed, not necisarily for wealth (although they do wear jewelry and live in luxury while others suffer) but also greed for land and power. Quote: Someone: Drakons need to control everything. Waylander: Unsupported nonsense. Is that your only comback? Lucky for me, I like to comeback with support. They declared marshal law in Khima-Uss, they designed the unbound (the only thing stronger than them) to die at their will, they let Southforge fall (it had no drakons, after all). And they are even facing dissention in their high command. Even with a 'visionary' leader like Ghaldring, some still want more.