Emperor Tullegolar

It doesn't have one because it is not a revolution that is oriented around the general population like many of the ones you named. The drakons don't actively seek to get people to revolt against their Shaper overlords, and the people don't generally try to. In fact, since both sides fight mostly with creations, this war involves very few normal people at all, thus no need for an anthem.

Why would you want to be a servile? They're just like humans... only worse. Drayks and drakons do have thumbs. You can see them pretty clearly.

One instance that always comes to mind when I question Shaper ethics would be the situation in the Valeya Ruins. Guardian Kantor, despite his mission to undermine the Rebellion, decided to stay and protect the town and it's inhabitants instead. This is one of the most chivalric acts done by anyone in the war. As for the rebel ending, I don't think the Shapers are as much at fault as the Rebellion. The Shapers don't want to release crazy creations at first because they are worried about killing innocents. The drakons do not care, and so the Unbound kill them anyway. I don't think the Shapers were wrong to make mad creations of their own at that point because most of the people they were trying to protect were dead by then anyway. How can you say they are equally at fault?

Waylander, in your edits, you are moving from a discussion on species into a political discussion. I found a quote you might be refering to, the gazer South of the city of Rising says "My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers." This does not say that the drakons created the first gazer, only the one you are talking to. Although the wording is a bit questionable here, the fact that so many other people say Barzahl created the gazers would still lead me to believe Barzahl made the first one. Edit: In my searches, I also noticed Barzahl created the war-bred serviles. Another point for Barzahl!

The Shapers will win this poll. The Rebellion likes to destroy things, and that tends to rub people the wrong way. The Rebellion's disdain for life seems to outweigh their love of freedom. For a cause that only has one ideal that it is also failing to uphold, it is a wonder they have any sympathizers at all.

Quote: Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings. There is a difference between creating works of art like the Radient College entrance and 'collecting shiney things,' which I will admit drakons like to do. Quote: What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings? They are single minded. A human can be anything he wishes, a farmer, a merchant, an artist, anything. Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for. Quote: Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else. Quote: Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival. Yeah, telling you to go raid Salisaar's tomb for his skin was really respectful of him. Quote: Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7. You have to look beyond these numbers at the endings. Users of the human geneforge are able to build empires single-handedly. Users of drakon geneforges can barely hold their own despite their numbers. By the way, I searched the Radient College texts for whatever you were refering to, and all I found were these two quotes: "he (Barzahl) developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template," and "I am a gazer. My kind was created by Barzahl. We serve the Barzites." Now, what were you talking about?

I was actually modified by the Barzites. What I meant by self-shaping was modifying humans. This pretty much only removes Danette from the picture, anyone else is fair game. I did this because it is difficult to decide which is more significant: modifying people or making better creations. I want this poll to be limited to new and/or improved creations. Edit: Oh, and I'm not certain Litalia invented the creator, but she is the only person in the game to make them, so I thought it was a fair assumption. It was either her, Akhari-Blaze, or Ghaldring, so feel free to replace her name with whomever you think may have invented them when you vote.

Who do you think has contributed the most to the art of shaping within the span of the Geneforge games? Please be prepared to support your decision, and be aware that the game can be full of propaganga, we are looking for actual achievements here. I did not include Danette because she is the undisputed master of her own field (self-shaping). No one has ever really improved on Danettes works since, so that puts her in her own catagory.

Aaauugh, creations. I control creations, nothing can control me. No other being could ever have shaped me, only I can shape myself. I am a human, and there is nothing I would rather be.

But then where would I put the eastern sea?

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: There's no need to call for a lock. They know what to do. Your faith in the system is misplaced.

Quote: Originally written by Slarty: Regardless, what did Barzahl do besides come up with three new creations (admittedly, astonishingly effective ones)? That's pretty much it, I guess. It's still more than anyone else did. What have Eass and Ghaldring done besides... uh... what have Eass and Ghaldring done?

Randomly teleporting and using a portal are two different things. Portals seem to require less power to make than teleporting yourself without one. And yeah, what you're teleporting through probably factors in, especially if you want to make a scientific case for teleportation.

And she didn't even get a single vote. Two different areas of shaping, really. Danette invented self-shaping, and there haven't been any real advancements in that area since her death, true. But Barzahl excelled in making new creations. Most of the advances that there have been in new creations since the Sucia Island incident can all be traced back to the Barzites, many to Barzahl himself.

Analysis: Alwan is the winner, but by a much smaller margin than Miranda. Alwan probably won because he gets more face time with the PC (over the course of two games) than any other male in the series. He is also a cool guy in general. He is very conservative, though, further supporting the fact that most Spiderwebbers sympathize with the Shaper cause. Khyryk comes in close second. He is the tragic hero, torn between the two sides, seeing evil in both. Since there really is evil in both, it makes sense people would like him. He probably didn't win because his third option isn't that much better, and it leaves him in a position where he is looking rather pathetic by the end of Geneforge 4. Trajkov comes in third. He is quite awesome, the first to find the geneforge after it was abandoned. He has that whole foreigner aura about him, and in one ending, he takes over the world. Awesome. A bunch of drakons came in after that. Combined, they received an almost significant amount of votes. They are indeed fascinating, plus, those rebel sympathizers had to vote for someone, no matter how ugly. Barzahl probably would have gotten more votes had I not made the comment in the first post. A pity, really, considering the fact that he contributed more to the art of shaping than any other single being in the history of the games. Goettsch, Zachary, and Spharon have some fans. Nobody loves Hodge, Rahul, and Phariton, however.

Quote: Originally written by Alorael: Sometimes it seems trivial. Sometimes nobody can teleport out of Avernum without going to inordinate lengths to collect gadgets and locations and such. I suspect this is why the Erika curse was nessesary. She was probably the only mage in Avernum with the power to just teleport herself out. As for the Exile III ending teleportation, Rentar's fortress, if you think about it, probably wasn't all that far from Blackcrag at all, it may have been right under it. Distance surely factors into how tough the teleportation is.

Do you think there will be a new opening theme for Nethergate: Resurrection?

Quote: 'These things'? What exactly do you mean by that? Well, if I have to repeat myself, again, I was talking about the entrance to the Radient College, which is described as being overly eleborate. Barzahl, from the moment he arrived in Drypeak, was preparing for his inevitible war with the Shapers. While preparing, he still made time for art. Quote: A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human No they don't, not at all. What makes you say that? Quote: Another line of evidence is that Drayks clearly demonstrate empathy for other beings. No they don't. Drayks and serviles constantly complain that the drakons care little for either race. Quote: Given that Drakons are merely improved version of Drayks, it stands to reason that they are likely to have the capacity to experience emotion. Again, no. Usually, when anything is improved by shaping, emotion is the first thing to go. Quote: The Takers, and the Drakons, made vast improvements [on the canisters and geneforge]. Will your inaccuracies ever stop? How were canisters improved? They were the same damn things. As for the geneforge, the original human geneforge made you character (or Trajkov or Goettsch) into a demi-god, the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons. They clearly make inferior geneforges. Quote: Again, the Drakons are far more apt at creating Drakons that their human counterparts. Seeing as how it is not the drakons' goal to control these creations, or any creations for that matter, they are able to make stronger creations in general, yes. However, when humans abandon the need to control creations, like Shaper Monarch did, they make the most powerful creations ever seen: the Titan. Quote: Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one. Does it say this somewhere? Quote: There are numerous creations which the Drakons have vastly improved on. Anyone can create (and people like Barzahl and Monarch regularly do) horrible, mutant, overpowered creations. If we're going to argue on the point of creation strength rather than actual design (humans came up with the initial design for all creations) then we need to think of the most powerful creations. So far, these would be the things that Monarch, a human, made. Quote: Stillness: Drakons are listed before serviles as the ones responsible for Northforge. Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee. Who knows, they could have intended the serviles to eventually make the art for the walls as well. Quote: The fact that they have a complex that no human has touched is a testament to their intelligence. Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence? Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl. They may make some improvements now and then, but they were nothing but crappy drayks on Sucia before they were helped by humans. Quote: Waylander: Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. We're back to the polar bear argument. Are polar bears superior beings?

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: I'd thought of this idea myself I said it first! I get to name it! 'The Tullegolar Projection' should do. Anyway, I don't think capitalization is necessary when your seas are named just for their directions relative to a specific point (the Shaper home continent). When the PC thinks "no Shaper has ever crossed the western sea" he is clearly refering to a specific sea, and most likely not just the sea west of Sucia.

Hmm, the best I can come up with would be, when refering to the buildings on the North Rising Road (which include the entrance to the Radient College, one of their most elaborate peices of art) they are described as such: "They look recently built, probably by heavy creation labor." I'm not certain whether or not this implies they are all finished. Just looking at the College gates, the little guard posts outside appear only half done. Also there is the matter of 'recently.' How long had their been hostility between the factions before you arrived?

Nalyd, Stillness, if you haven't noticed, we're making up the definition as we go along. We have been going into detail of the many aspects that we think makes a superior being, so so far we've agreed on that much, at least. If you have a problem with the qualities of 'superior' we've come up with so far, please be more specific than a generic dictionary definition that doesn't help at all.

Quote: Or perhaps they have their priorities straight. Saving their species and the Rebellion first, and hang pretty pictures later. Yeah, but they're not doing either. As I said in my last post, the drakon high command is more intent on concerning itself with bickering amongst each other rather than fixing the almost defunct rebellion. Quote: Complete chaos? Huh? For years, Barzhal pretty much had an informal truce with the other three sects. He is still building these things when you visit them (during chaos). Quote: If, like humans, Drakons possess sentience, sapience and introspection, it isn't a far stretch to deduce that they are capable of emotion. Who are you to say that this isn't a stretch? How many other sapient species besides humans do you know of? Quote: Drakons have been demonstrated to be better Shapers than the Shapers themselves. Oh, and if you're looking for evidence, try replaying the entire series. In the series I played, humans invented the canisters and geneforge. They also created the drakons themselves, rotgroths, eyebeasts, and... oh... every single other creation in the game. Quote: Drakons are born physically superior to humans. I'm not talking 'polar bear vs. human', I'm talking more along the lines of an electric train vs. a human. They also have the innate ability to spout gouts of fire which are far more damaging than any 'learned' human spell. Yes, humans certainly did do an excellent job when they designed them, I'll give them that. Quote: Drakons have demonstrated themselves to be far more intelligent and creative than Shapers, due to the mere fact that they have made extraordinary progress in the field of Shaping in a only a few decades. This is all rebel propaganda. The rebellion can do almost nothing that the shapers didn't do first. Sure, they advanced to the same level as humans in record time, but they used stolen knowledge, and they had to be taught it by Zachary and Barzahl personally. Quote: Jeez, you must have been asleep when playing the latter portions of GF2, GF3, and GF4. Because if I remember correctly, Drakons are masters at molding new creations. If that's not creative genius, then what the hell is? As I said before, humans are responsible for all new creations. Name one thing the drakons have contributed at all.

They know now, of course, but what I'm saying is that they didn't know it when they named their seas. As for the Sholai continent being more North, that is one possibility, but not the only reason as to why it might be so cold there. Ocean currents and elevation are just as likely. I'll leave it as an ambiguous blob for now.

I've got it! The world is round! Assuming the Shapers know that the world is round (most early earthly cultures had no trouble with this one) and also assuming that the 'other continent' is where the capital is located (Dillame, one of the bigger cities in Terrestia, is refered to as 'wild') then I can explain the rest! The Western Sea would be named for it's location relative to where the capital continent is, same with the Eastern Sea. Thus, Terresita is across from the Eastern Sea. However, since the Shapers are unable to traverse the Western Sea, they probably assume (mmm, ethnocentrism) that there must be nothing out there and the sea therefore loops around the globe where it then borders with Eastern Terrestia. That explains why the Western Sea borders Eastern Terrestia. Little do the Shapers know, the Sholai lands are right in the middle of their supposesly monolithic Western Sea. Behold:

Quote: Once again, Emperor, please provide a shred of evidence which demonstrates that Drakon's do not have an appreciation for art. The serviles that built Northforge, as Diki pointed out, left space for art in the walls. The drakons have had plenty of time to ignore the war and have petty political squabbles while the rebellion crumbles (Southforge), but they don't seem to have any need or desire to fill those walls with art. Barzahl, on the other hand, in the midst of complete chaos in Drypeak, built eleborate structures filled with extraneous art, which are still being built when you arrive (see Radient College description). Quote: It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art. So the things I say aren't logically reasonable, but you're fine with this nonsense? Besides, you're not claiming that their similar, you're claiming that they are superior. Where is your evidence (or reasoning, I'm fine with either) that they are superior? Quote: The game suggests that Drakons do indeed have innate Shaping abilities. Canister usage is not required, so it seems quite reasonable to assume that Drakons are created with the ability to Shape. Where does it say this? Or is this more made up stuff? Quote: They have... creative genius. You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own. Quote: Quote: Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans, More garbage from an Emp doppleganger. I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. Thuryl, I'd be interested to see where it says that. Even if it is true, that would mean they still did not initially have shaping abilities (their glorious creator, Barzahl (mere human), decided not to bless them with it). They could have given it to themselves, sure, but humans could too, if they chose. The Shapers simply choose not to (foolish if you ask me) but hey, they're still beating the drakons in the war.