Emperor Tullegolar

Quote: Originally written by Retlaw May: Whoever made the argument including the Eastern and Western Roman Empires got it all wrong. That would be Waylander, the King of Bad Analogies.

Quote: Originally written by Slarty 2.0: I haven't been able to find a single line from any of the games suggesting that Terrestia is the less settled Shaper land. G4 makes it clear that Eastern Terrestia is the less settled part of Terrestia, but there's nothing to suggest it's the Shaper equivalent of Valorim. You should read the geography thread. Micawber brought up this screenshot:

I can think of no relevant examples. The United States capital, maybe, but that was placed so that it was near the center of the country. Why would the Shapers place theirs farther away from civilization? It makes no sense. The capital must be on the other continent.

The continents were most likely settled by the time shaping was discovered.

There you have it then. I think it is fairly safe to say that the Council does not live on Terrestia. Visiting somewhere new would be nice, but I actually really like it when you visit the same places in game sequels, that's one thing I really liked about the Avernum series. So really, there is nowhere that Geneforge 5 could take place that would disapoint me.

Quote: Waylander: Would it be reasonable to expect a Jew to 'diplomatically' approach the Germans during the Holocaust? They did. Quote: Time and time again, the Shapers have shown themselves to have no respect whatsoever for dealing with independent humans or creations. Intelligent serviles are considered rogues and are thus also barred from existence. The fact that the Shapers approached a rogue servile (the PC) shows that they are willling to forgive their former enemies. The fact that no drakon has ever approached a shaper shows that they have no interest whatsoever in peace, and that they have no intention of stopping until all Shapers are dead. The drakons are clearly the bigger barrier to peace here, not the Shapers.

Quote: Originally written by Suspicious Vlish: From memory, you meet them on Terrestia after finishing every game. The game does say that Terrestia is the less settled of the two continents, so it makes sense that the Shaper Council would be on the other one. The triad that you meet on Terrestia at the end of Geneforge 3 is not the council. Geneforge 2 says that you travel for many weeks to get to the capital. Since it doesn't mention a boat, perhaps the two continents are linked and not seperate islands like I made them in the map. I don't have a good Geneforge 1 save file, anyone care to refresh me in on the details of that ending?

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: They hope to scare the enemy off, discourage, or punish them in that way because they can't win toe-to-toe. The rebellion attack does not fit that mold. The true target is shapers. What do you call the unbound then? Stratagy? The drakons can't win toe to toe, so they are going to massacre half a continent worth of people to spread fear instead. The Shaper's are their target? Too bad the Shapers are based on a totally different continent.

I never said that. I'm perfectly fine with killing. I just want to make sure that the drakons don't get the moral high ground. Their massacres are far worse than the Shapers'. Oh, and Stillness, how was I said a theory? Akhari-Blaze did say to destroy everything, that includes civilians.

Even though I enjoy controlling creations, I also like to destroy my enemies myself, and I like to do it quickly. So battle spells. Aura of flames being the best, naturally. I don't think I've ever even used a single blessing spell. I'll heal if for some reason I'm not cheating. I'll use mental magic only as a novelty.

Sure, but until there is a single drayk or drakon working for the Shapers, I can say with certainty that they do not accept them. I think the Shapers allow serviles to join them because they are more moldable. Drakons, in their single-mindedness, would never work for Shapers. The fact that serviles would work for either side shows an adaptability that drakons lack. Drakons are blinded by their arrogance, hindering their alliances with other creations and humans. The Shapers recognize this and are willing to adapt themselves by allowing serviles to join them. Oh, and Stillness gave up.

Akhari-Blaze tells the unbound to "destroy everything." Civilians are being targeted. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization, concerned only with bringing down the current regime, and willing to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Quote: Originally written by vld: Quote: edit: honestly can you imagine a drakon sweeping a floor And i can`t imagine Monarch washing the toilet. Way to miss the point completely. Notice the person you quoted was refering to all drakons. You were refering to a single human. You can certainly imagine a human cleaning toilets or sweeping floors, can't you? Quote: So we can`t assume that Shapers wouldn`t accept dryaks but you can assume that Drakons wouldn`t do any work? Double standarts? Shapers would not accept drayks, there is no assumption here. The facts are that their existence is illegal. As for drakons not doing any work, this is indeed an assumption. I don't think the question is whether or not they would work, the question is could they? They lack fine motor skills, as has already been pointed out. To answer rantalot's question: no one has ever shaped a physical change to themselves directly. Barzahl did create the drakons from old drayks, so I suppose it is possible to change someone. However, all he really did was grow them bigger and stronger in some vats, a specific change such as making hands more agile would be more difficult, I imagine. It would be easier to just make the next generation of drakons with better hands, which should be easy enough, but the drakons have never shown any interest in something that would not give them an advantage over enemies in battle.

Quote: Stillness: No, I agree that no man is an island. humans and drakons need others. Humans do not need drakons. Yes, if the serviles were suddenly gone, human society would go into a panic, and it would take some time to get back on track. The point is, it will get back on track because that's how humanity works. If the drakons did not have creations to do their manual labor, they would likely get very violent at first. Then, it's not certain whether or not they could cope at all with their poor ability to do fine labor like writing. Humans can tighten bolts if they need to, the game hints a few times (shaper ending) that drakons can not. The point is that drakons need other creations to compliment them, humans do not. Drakons are one-sided, good at only certain things, they were designed to be this way.

I choose... me.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: What does variety have to do with war anyway? It's called combined arms . People who use it win wars.

I'm banking on "Other Continent." What better way to end the series than a final epic battle in the halls of the Shaper Council?

Quote: Morior: Could you provide a quote? Quote: Stillness: Quote: Thuryl: It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage. Very much worth mentioning - good point! That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong. Quote: Waylander: It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound. No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound. There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius. Quote: I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength. I'll give you that. But again, Monarch was one man in a basement and he managed to create something that rivals the best the drakons can offer. Imagine what a whole group of humans with vast resources at their fingertips could do.

Quote: Originally written by Morior: 2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true? It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it. Quote: vld: And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers? I sure hope not, he's a crazy guy living in a basement. Seriously though, we have yet to meet the best the Shapers have to offer (the Council), but doesn't it say something about the strength of humans that one crazy man in a basement could even be compared to the best the drakons have to offer? Quote: Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No? What's the matter with you? I said "when they abandon this need for control." And yes, the Titan is tougher than the unbound you fight at Quessa-Uss. Quote: Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference. Could you explain this difference? They are both marked for death, that seems like the same situation to me. Quote: What other options? Hide until they are found and killed? They could build up their defenses in the meantime, biding their time. It could only have improved their chances of winning an inevitable war, right? Quote: And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming. Really? Then please point out the drakon that does not fit the description I presented.

Quote: vld: That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter. It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch. And it was not even taking into account Monarch's more powerful creations, just the crappy ones you see in the swamp and city. That quote is worthless, do better. Quote: Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that. That's not why. The reason why is because Shapers value control over raw strength. When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out. Quote: You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options : A) Die Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race. I thought you said you read the thread? Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains? Forget them? The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand. This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand. Quote: Stillness: The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad. Not a single thing I said in the section you quoted was an opinion. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute or have you given up like Waylander?

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: "They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." Let it go. You're wrong. It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

Reguarding drakons evolving in record time: The first drakons were made from intelligent, very independant drayks. They were first given this intelligence by the humans that once inhabited Sucia. As for them stealing knowledge, I wouldn't even give them that much credit. They had it handed to them. The drakons had Zachary and Barzahl to spoonfeed them tons shaper knowledge after they were created in Drypeak. Anything that the drakons have accomplished they have done so because it is what they were designed (by humans) to do. This is the main reason why I personally have such a hard time seeing them as superior to humans, despite the fact that they are indeed stronger in many ways. Quote: Stillness: Don't confuse more variety with more skill. You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes. Quote: Morior: I highly doubt it's true that all drakons are either fighters or hoarders. This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.

Quote: Originally written by... someone: for no reason you ignore what quote says about skills and continue your nonsenses about resources I have every reason, actually. I'm trying to prove drakons are not superior, remember? Is every person supposed to acknowledge every fact that has already been pointed out in everyone elses post? If so, I'd say I'm still ahead of the game, having refuted far more of other people's arguments than they have mine (see Morior's recap if you still don't get it).

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: You chose Monarch as one of the most powerful shapers. That's a fact. The game says that drakons are far more skilled. That is a fact. It proves you wrong, not me. Note that your quote says the drakons have far greater resources than Monarch. It is another testament to human superiority that while the drakons are stuggling to win the war despite many drakons working around the clock with the resources of entire provinces at their disposal, Monarch still manages to give pause to both them and the Shapers, conquoring almost an entire province by himself using nothing but his own willpower and a few machines in his basement. Quote: My analogy was to make it clear that quantity is not quality, nothing more. I still don't think this makes sense. The Shapers spend their time developing new tactical creations for use in a variety of situation, that's quality, is it not? Drakons focus more on dumping raw power into existing creation templates, this sounds more like quantity, does it not?