Retlaw May

Sorta sounds like what Monarch did, if you do gain enough power they will truce in the area until you are dead.

I don't think those were Shaper/Shaper wars. It was the first of the Shapers vs. other races/people. Shapers randomly changed the people they fought against.

But how do you get those who make puresteel on your side? Most of them are loyal Shapers and don't have much of an insentive to switch to your side and even if they did, they can't just walk off with a whole factory to help you. I think the problem with your ambitions is that you assume you are already in a position of power with followers and resources when you start. You'd be squished even before you started.

ET, your "worthy canidates" would be harder to control than anyone because they would be more arrogant and less trustworthy. Also, the Barzite/Shoali ending is before the Shapers are truly aware of the threat of canisters. They have seen your tricks and met them.

No, because he would have immediately been seen as a freak and the Shapers would have tracked him down because aditional resources would have required reveiling himself. Also, he wwould have been to proud to do as what would be seen as fleeing. You are his additional resources.

Ah, but you forget that the previous games after G1 were very vague. It says something like, "That Shaper escaped and told the Council of what was happening." They never mentioned what happened to the other Shaper.

As you said before, do not underestimate the alliances that can be formed by common hate or neccesity. Even if you are the superior "shaper", you are still flesh and your underlings will band together an kill you eventually. You will live in fear or die because you don't have fear. You will be hunted and killed just like Monarch because there will always be ones as you seeking power and ones like my ideals who would resist canisters unless absolute neccesity. Both your own type and my own will hunt you. Death is enement for you for you are hunted and will always be hunted.

Please excuse me if someone did suggest this, but did anyone surmise that Shaper Monarch was Goettsch from G1? I mean, he did have an "empire" and his strange apperance even to regular canister users could be a result of a slight change in canisters since 200+ years ago (or maybe the age of the canisters meant something). Monarch says that he forgot about his past on purpose, Goettsch had a lot he probably would have liked to forget.

ET, while I agree you should not underestimate people in the need of using allies, you also should not underestimate those people's egos and their capacity for great pettiness that will destroy such alliances. And while sanity is an illusion, their is a such thing as just too unstable. -"Show me a sane man and I will fix him." PS: I think that your ideas would just lead to multiple Shaper (maybe put that in quotations?) Monarchs. You'll understand if you play G4.

We are talking if canisters were real right? So that means no load previous game, so unless you were with the maker, you wouldn't know if the one you were using was one of the "best" canisters. If I were a shaper aprentice with access to trainers I would not use canisters and use my enemies madness and ego against them. In the end, I think the strongest people in the Geneforge world are probably the older shapers without modification. They have the capasity to think rationally and stay alive longer with less danger so they may progress and plan. I have have great disdain for the rebels. As long as I live the Shapers shall recieve my loyalty with the hope that I may one day be high enough up to make some moderate changes.

But Barzahl didn't have time to properly train/recruit people. He was racing against the clock against all the other factions. I bet if he was alone in the mountains he would have been very selective.

The Southforge Geneforge was a bit of a disappointment to me. After all the rebels did to get one, that was all that it could do? I got the feeling that the original geneforge basically made you a god, sure it only gave you those +10 bonuses immediately, but I got the feeling that the full effects don't happen until you reach the mainland and create your empire.

I played on torment as a jack-of-all-trades servile who had decent creations and magic and only supplemented with his own somewhat weak attacks. He had an easy time, but that is because he went around and cleared the tunnels behind Monarch before he attacked. I think that if you have decent mechanics and support, this is an easy fight even on torment. What was annoying was getting to the place and the weird spawner remenicent of the one from G3.

There are hints on this in G1.

Well, an argument is that they may prohibit shaping themselves from their original form, but healing is just shaping to what you were...

Oh no! You mean I can't summon my alien beasts to rip apart the rebels?

Nioca is right, something would be left over. Look at the teachings of Sucia Island except having thousands upon thousands of those type of nooks and cranies.

Like servile sex changes.

Actually, in G4 there is no essence used when casting icebolt (yay). I think that healing would be considered shaping since you are "shaping" the person back to health. I don't think that banning shaping would be a good idea because of the horrible reprocussions. Though I think the Shapers do seem harsh and sometimes unprogressive, their regulations are the lesser of the evils.

Thanks for reminding me.

I forget where you get the skein of wisdom... Can anyone remind me where it is.

Excuse me if I'm missing something, but when you said that you would pump skills into combat, you mean only into quick action right? Maybe a little parry, but everything else is useless for the infiltrator that isn't preset for combat expecially with the new action system. You also seem to be not very strong in magic which is the infiltrator's strength, not the strength that you have invested in.

But that means that when you do have a creation, it will be relativaly weak because it has no exp.

I let the Takers live up to that point and then totally anihalate them.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Dikiyoba: Quote: The analogy doesn't work, because the Takers started the war. 1. False. The Takers did not 'start' this war. The Shapers did. It is an act of war to force a particular race into subservience via the use of force and coercion. The Takers are on the defensive, as they are fighting against Shaper oppression, for the right to be treated as equal, autonomous beings. 2. Even you were to argue (on technicalities) that the Takers did start the war (because they struck the first blow against a regime who would genocide them if it was aware of their existence), I fail to see why my analogy doesn't work. Merely because it isn't a mirror image of the situation in question doesn't invalidate the analogy. That's the reason why its an analogy. The principle I am attempting to put forward remains the same in both cases. Sometimes destruction is necessary to preserve freedom, equality and dignity. Merely because they use destructive means to achieve their goals does not nullify the legitimacy of their cause. Many resistance groups have struck the first blow against their oppressors, such as the Greeks against the Ottomans in a struggle for an independent Greece, or the Polish against the Russians after the partitions. Waylander you just decribed the reason for Japanese Imperialism... Japan became an imperial state after Western Imperialism came in and enslaved China and put restrictions on Japan. The Japanese were like "We see now, in this new world it is conquer or be conquered, so we must conquer!" Also, they saw America as a threat to their Pacific territories (and wanted their terretories). Hai soo desu. Quote: An unfortunate side-effect when fighting an oppressive regime whose military might far exceeds your own. The Takers can't fight the Shapers via conventional warfare, due to their lack of Shaping skill and resources. Hence, they need to resort to asymmetrical warfare. Sun Tzu suggested this is his 'Art of War'. I remember that there were hints in G2 and G3 that the Drakons' methods of shaping were superior... and since when did you here about the drakon forces being weaker? (Drakons and drayks are quite imposing, not to mention multitudes of crazed magic serviles plus grunts). Quote: The elderly mage from Island 1. Spharon from Dhonal's Isle, who was entrusted with a troupe of serviles. Another mage from Dhonal's Isle, who ambushed you at the pass. Corrie, from Island 4. This is your list for "high ranking" individuals who joined the rebels... The elderly mage was a selfish punk with no real hint of his supporting of the rebel cause (besides his own personal gain). Spharon was a pawn who was used to spread extra chaos, he still enslaved servile (and in a worse way than the Shapers). The random mage that ambushed you, in my opinion, probably learned magic under the rebels or was given a few cansiters. Corrie was just a little guard who had family issues. Also, I don't think any of these were truely "influential individuals". Quote: So overall, there are three types of humans/creations in Geneforge. 1. Humans/creations who genuinely prefer Shaper rule over that of the revolutionaries. These tend to be in the minority. 2. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, and join the revolutionaries. In general, mainly creations (serviles), and a small proportion of humans join the revolutionaries. Serviles have a greater tendency to defect, as they are treated far worse than the humans (again, the 'slave' and 'peasant' analogy). 3. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, but who lack the courage to rise up due to fear of Shaper retaliation. Many creations, and the majority of humans, fall into this group. You are fogetting the main group (if it isn't those who actually do love Shapers) those that really are indifferent to Shapers, besides the fact that they were brought many advantages in daily life by the Shapers, so they really have nothing to gain and everything to lose if the Rebels win. Also, I don't see why you think that most of the population hate Shapers. People seem to be living comfortably under the Shapers in general (and don't even bother using the analogy of the swamp people because they wanted to do what they did, if you here about the free food and shelter they would have gotten if they stayed in town.) Have you ever seen a begger in Geneforge? Jeff did make a point in putting them in Avernum if I remember correctly. Fixed some unwanted bolds in the post.