Goldengirl

I think we all realize that a movie would cut out side quests galore. However, even if a director got rid of all the side quests, there'd still be too many major quests to make a good movie, even if it was one movie per game. For instance, you mentioned removing the Slithzerikai War. Unfortunately, though, that's a critical component of the world of Avernum as a setting, as well as a pretty important plot point for future games. You also mention story arcs, and to be honest, that's where I think Avernum as a movie falls apart most. The game doesn't really have an overarching story. Your party is dumped in the caves, they kill things and get attention for being good at killing things, and then a few powerful organizations in Avernum have them kill a few powerful foes. Avernum 2, what with the Empire War, makes a lot more sense as a film.

Plot spoilers ahead on why Avernum would make a bad movie. I believe I'm referencing an idea Alorael had, which is that Avernum would make a pretty good TV series. The exact reason it would make a lousy movie (so many unrelated quests) would be the exact reason it'd make a great TV show. Writers wouldn't have to clobber the audience with details about the back stories and personalities of each party member all at once, either. I feel like the plot of Avernum 2 would be much better transferred to the format of a movie, with some creative licensing. The aforementioned TV series could continue in detailing all the other events of the Empire War. There's plenty of detail, and some of the stuff that gets cut from that hypothetical movie could be featured there. Avernum 3 and 4 probably would be back to the TV show, again because of lack of central focus. Vahnatai plagues are too regional to form a strong plot line. Avernum 5, though, has enough central focus to make a good film out of it. I'm unsure about Avernum 6. Of course, these are all just my flights of fancy.

The debate on the definition of evil has been something that has been a sore topic in philosophy for a long time. Are some things always evil, as Kant suggests, no matter what their circumstances? Is evil in the eye of the beholder, as Nietzsche posits? Are actions evil because of their intent, as the deontologists believe, or their consequence, as the (consequential) utilitarians believe? Let's imagine an adventurer in D&D who does nothing wrong, per se, while doing classically good things (by the D&D definition) such as killing bandits, defeating necromancers, etc. However, this adventurer always refuses quests that involve saving slaves; we'll say it's because the adventurer is lawful. In fact, the adventurer willingly uses weaponry made by slaves, paying money to slave owners for this gear. Slavery is one of those things most people regard as evil; does the adventurer's actions make them evil, because they're helping to finance slavery?

I mean, this question takes a lot for granted. For instance, do we count replay time for different factions/sides/whatever or just time to do one playthrough? Do we stick to the bare bones of what we HAVE to do, or do we include all the option quests? How carefully do people actually read the text? I think that's why there's such a large range in howlongtobeat's data.

[Forgive the double post, but I have one last episode in the saga of the three alien visitors] The transfusion of knowledge was incredible. Humanity was astounded by the vast extent of technological achievements these aliens had at their disposal. Communication between world governments and the alien trio was at first stilted and slow, even after purely visual means of communication were utilized. The aliens seemed to have a profound misunderstanding of all aspects of human culture they had encountered in their studies before their terrestrial visit; they switched languages casually and frequently, forcing governments to hire a wide range of polyglots who laboriously translated the aliens' communications word by word. Finally, though, the humans managed to get the aliens to write in one language solely, though Western politicians were dismayed to discover that the language the aliens eventually chose was Farsi. From their spaceship orbiting the moon, communications were sent back and forth constantly, with Iran now dominating the conversation between the two species. An actual landing on the Earth was arranged, though the Iranian diplomats were unable to convey the concept of national boundaries to the aliens. Despite all intentions to land outside of Tehran, the strange trio instead landed in Kuwait. An international crisis emerged as American military officials refused to transport them to Iran, an issue which the aliens themselves seemed ignorant of. After one full day of wandering a beach that was cleared of any other visitors by the American military, the aliens resolved the crisis by setting up a broadcasting center that ran a video blog on the Internet. There, they continued their discussions with world leaders. Their hunger for knowledge was insatiable, and soon teams of professors of history, literature, philosophy, and all manner of social studies and humanities were brought in to discuss matters with the aliens. In return, the aliens almost flippantly offered technological and scientific information, presented at rates so fast that the scientific community's collective heads were spinning. They offered the information so fast, and on topics ranging from the arcane to the obvious, that actual applications of the information were slow to come. The theories that had been devised by the alien civilization, dubbed the Scientists rather crudely by humans since the aliens didn't have individual or collective names for themselves, were fascinating and sometimes their applications were immediately obvious. Theories, though, were all that were offered. Then, all of a sudden and without any further contact, the aliens left. Their intense interest in cultural and anthropological issues had apparently been sated. Human curiosity, though, is not so easily satisfied. After twenty years of muddled efforts to make the alien theorems bring utility to humanity, the European Space Agency managed to develop an engine with faster-than-light speeds. Combined with Japanese breakthroughs in replicating the advanced communications techniques that had allowed the aliens to discover humanity, a roughly international crew was assembled that sent a mission to restore contact. Upon arrival at the solar system that had been colonized extensively by the aliens, there was shock. Rather than the prosperous and vaguely utopian worlds of technological and scientific progress that had been hinted at by the three travelers who had named themselves after cities, they found burnt and wasted planets marked by massive craters and detonations. Later investigations managed to piece together a rough narrative of what happened: Armed with an extensive (and now corrected) understanding of human culture, Edo, Sydney, and Damascus shared their findings with the rest of their civilization. The result was disastrous; the public was voracious in their consumption and replication of human ideas, lacking anything resembling the social and cultural constructs that were regarded as archetypes on Earth. Governments, terrorist groups, armies, churches, knitting clubs, slaveowners' organizations, corporations, and the whole host of human organizations emerged and spread, enforcing practices they had stolen from humanity without knowing why they did so. The worst, though, occurred when the aliens began to practice war in a way far more savage than anything humanity had ever done. Borrowing the Schmittian idea that only states could engage in war, they experienced rapid centralization of all organizations under state governments; the states fought to fight, and their combat was a war of all against all, indiscriminate violence to completely eradicate the other. Military technology, previously completely ignored by the civilization, rapidly reached and surpassed human levels, reaching a zenith when an entire planet experienced a simultaneous nuclear reaction of all molecules below its atmosphere. The war only ended when the last two groups, geologists and a group of haiku enthusiasts, simultaneously destroyed each other. The vestiges of civilization were all that remained, the ruins of a society that thirsted for culture but drank from bloody waters. Humanity was left with the sobering possibility that they were, again, alone in the universe.

I saw this topic and thought that Slarty may have returned. Nevertheless, I took the test again to see what changed. My sense of extraversion has remained high, but my agreeableness has dipped to being low instead of average. I think this is a result of my sympathy waning; I'm still very trusting, however. Cooperation is high, but everything else is low. For conscientiousness, there was no change. Neuroticism is now average, which I attribute to a stressful year at college rather than my more relaxed time last summer. Immoderation remains high, but my anxiety and depression scores have both creeped up a little. Openness stayed high, though I'm decidedly less open to emotionality than I previously scored. I think this may be because I don't care too much about what others are feeling, though, rather than any change in my attitude towards my own emotions.

The governments of the Earth were thrown into a state of disarray. The Russians thought it was some sort of weird show of force by the United States, the United States was suspicious of the European Space Agency, France claimed international prestige while the rest of the European Union wished they had brushed up on their French, and China thought it was a joke since the Moon wasn't visible in the eastern hemisphere at the time of the message. In space, the three aliens awaited a reply. Finally, through a great act of international cooperation, a message was sent to their shuttle from the International Space Station. Edo looked confused as an audio file played, with different languages recorded by different governments all saying the same thing - We welcome you and wish to talk in peace. "What is this?" Edo asked, the pigments flashing on his hands. Both Damascus and Sydney replied with gestures of confusion. Finally, Sydney remembered a bit of arcane information from a corner of the Internet, something about a physical ailment afflicting the strange patches of flesh on the sides of human heads. Struggling, Sydney programmed a new message, far less refined. With holograms once again being shown to the Earth through the use of the moon, the aliens wrote, "We are deaf." Unfortunately, they wrote this in German, having learned it in relation to Beethoven. Even more unfortunately, Germany had by this time lost view of the Moon from its ground-based telescopes. Instead, this message was relayed to the world by China, whose governmental officials had come around to realize this was a very sour joke indeed.

Fascinating. The Nephilim clearly are an advanced species, with red flintlock pistols, oversized potato peelers that function as guillotines and can cut peoples' arms off, and leaves in their hair. What an amazing time to be alive.

The death of free-form RPs here at SW makes me sad. I've long come to accept that the AIMhacks are the new status quo, but I simply can't participate in them due to an incredibly inconsistent schedule. I end up with free time where I could be RP'ing, but I never know when that free time is going to be. So, hopefully this goes somewhere. --- What the humans called anthropology had never been studied in any applicable form. Society was and had been for thousands of years. Its history had been recorded, but it had always been the history of technology and industry, not of wars, religion, or politics. The universally accepted narrative had been a gradual ascent to what the humans may have called 'godhood' as technological mastery over nature grew more and more absolute. "We are anarchists," was the message that flashed across Sydney's large hands in a series of hieroglyphs displayed by the mutable pigments present. "What does that mean?" was the response that colored Damascus' hands in turn. "It means that our society is not governed by political forces or enforced cultural beliefs. Rather, we let everyone live as they wish to live without any coercion." "But of course... What other means could there be?" asked Edo, joining the conversation. However, before Damascus could respond, Edo continued, "It is time. We are approaching the satellite they call the Moon." The three of them turned their faces to the observation pod in between them, gazing intently. The message had been prepared before the three explorers had set off, translated carefully by scholars after prowling through the words that had been intercepted. The body of knowledge humanity referred to as the Internet, which mirrored the Forum used by their own species. With a flip of a switch, Damascus activated the holographic beaming technology that projected a message, a long message communication. Aloha. We are (here the Japanese symbol for friends), et nous voulons communiquer for mutual learning. Here, an image of a lolcat was presented, as it was deemed that this was one of the most commonly understood forms of communication on the planet. The caption read, I can haz peace? A series of the aliens' own hieroglyphic language of representation here were then used, looking like a hyperrealistic portrait of the three aliens themselves, looking like hairy birds with four arms instead of wings. Finally, a line of musical notation, the opening riff to the Beatles' "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" dominated the top half of the Moon while below in binary was written a code for a program that turned out to be a standard text box with a 150 character limit.

Magical speciesism is a serious issue, guys. Of course Slithzerikai can grow hair under their chins, be artists, and wander with peaceful intentions through dark alleys. Not all Slithzerikai are Sss-Thsss, and some of the greatest heroes of Avernum have been Slithzerikai*! *in my playthroughs, at least

I'd argue that Avadon's world is actually the most creative of Jeff's, so far. Geneforge got by on how cool Shaping is; everything you explore is tied to Shaping intricately, from the servile villages, farmlands, and metropolises to the abandoned laboratories, dusty warrens, and battlegrounds. Avernum had the interesting duality between Surface and Exile culture, but within those two areas the cultures are largely homogeneous. Even given that the various tribes of giants, nephil, etc. all have distinct cultural patterns, the culture in the Empire and Avernum is actually pretty similar (not surprising, given the latter was created by people from the former). Nethergate, clearly, has two very distinct cultures. Avadon, on the other hand, has a diversity of cultural backgrounds. Just present in the game, there's the stratified (meritocratic?) society of Holklanda, the aristocratic (feudal?) society of Kellemderiel, the more rigidly feudal Khemeria, the egalitarianism enshrined in law in the Kva, and the military finesse of Avadon itself. I'm not sure how to describe society in the Wretch Lands, but it too is different, a more tribal and less formalized version of Khemeria. These are just the lands we get to visit; the Codex describes further the societies of other lands - most intriguing to me being the democratic society of Dharam. Democracy has been notably limited in Jeff's previous games; the Shapers have (what seems to be) non-democratic means of electing a Council that then has equal voting rights among the Councillors. Avernum experimented with democracy in the Council and also the Triad, but both of those bodies didn't seem to be democratically elected. They also, of course, were later abolished by the king. Nethergate, appropriately enough for the historical setting, didn't feature democracy either. Therefore, I'm excited by the mere existence of Dharam. I hope we get to visit in Avadon 2. Due to the radical diversity of very distinct cultures present in Avadon, I feel comfortable in saying that it's Jeff's most maturely crafted world yet. Avernum started out as a pretty generic fantasy culture that was morphed by its unique geographical condition. Geneforge was not generic at all, but it was also largely homogenized around the centrality of Shaping to the culture; the hints of previous cultures and other ways of doing things are never explored thoroughly. With Avadon, one can explore a multitude of cultures, moreover seeing their minute evolution due to the revisiting process.

Avernum is a remake of the Exile series; Avernum basically did a find-replace on the scripts to change "Exile" to "Avernum" as well as give the series a face-lift, change some spells around, etc. So, Fort Avernum from the first game is called Fort Exile, among many other changes. There's also an unofficial reconciliation between the two names, since they share the same universe. "Exile" is the name of the geographical location, whereas "Avernum" is the name of the political society. So, the Kingdom of Avernum controls the caves of Exile.

Here is the link for anyone who wants to see Jeff's (and Mariann's) responses to some interesting questions, ranging from gaming as art to the possibility of another Blades game, and so much more.

I believe that the Geneforge's status a MacGuffin varies from game-to-game. In the first two games (and I believe the third as well, though I haven't finished G3) the case is a lot stronger. It's theoretically possible to use the Geneforge, but most of the conflict concerning the game isn't about it being used, but rather about its construction and capture. By G4 the Geneforge is less a MacGuffin; it's a boost to stats that's used almost immediately. On the contrary, the Geneforge in Northforge Citadel can more realistically be classified as a MacGuffin. The majority of the game is spent trying to get to the Geneforge without any intention to use it or do anything with it but protect it. By G5 the argument that the Geneforge is a MacGuffin is basically lost. It makes only one appearance, without any real foreshadowing, and then is completely forgotten afterward. Indeed, the existence of that Geneforge is so hidden that only a handful of people know anything about it. If no one knows about it, it can't really be a MacGuffin.

There are very real reasons why Avernum couldn't overcome its difficulties, besides just Jeff wanting to end it all. It's hinted at since X2 that the type of expansive civilization in Avernum isn't feasible; the caves can't support that much life indefinitely. However, the imperial (I would argue) Avernite kingdom continued to gobble up, develop, and expand throughout Exile and the Northern Frontier without much thought to long term stability. I mean, even the Vahnatai go into their long rests to allow for the caves to regenerate, and it always seemed to me given what we see of the Olgai tribe during X2 that even still the Vahnatai had far less grandiose development and extraction of resources.

Is Godot, then, a MacGuffin?

Aside from Spiderweb Software games, I really like the Myst series of games. So, I'm going to pick a MacGuffin from Myst III: Exile - the Releeshahn book. Saavedro takes it at the beginning of the game, and the PC spends the entirety of the game trying to get it back. Once that happens at the end, it's handed to Atrus and that's the end of the game. It's supposed to hold an entire utopian world for a civilization, yet there's never any real satisfying exploration. In Myst V: End of Ages the PC finally gets to visit in one possible ending, getting a brief look at a garden in a cutscene.

Ohsky, that's not true. There's certainly room for a gamer like GoodOld Jack here. Have you tried adjusting the difficulty? What you're talking about sounds like it could be easily fixed by lowering the setting, say, to casual. Additionally, though I can't say for certain, your strategy may be skewed. Going to one of the strategy central stickies in the game forums may help you optimize your team to more quickly beat opponents.

I had a pretty traditional Fourth, and that was alright by me. Good holiday.

Thank you for correcting me. However, this is probably more due to a combination of shock due to being held prisoner and then Exiled after a trial, insufficient vitamin D (no sunlight), and low-nutrient food, wouldn't you say? What I'm trying to say is that it's not due to an abundance of diseases in Exile that sickness is common among Avernites, but rather due to the environment itself. Plus, there's that trait you can pick at the beginning where you're prone to sickness.

I don't think it's cheating to say there isn't a language barrier. After all, that's how the games are presented to us. Some of the specific terms might throw us off, of course, specifically those relating to magic. In addition, there are a few languages that actually are foreign. None of us can communicate natively with the Vahnatai or the Sholai, for instance. However, if you take G1 literally, it's apparently quite easy to learn a language. As for foreign organisms, I'd wager a guess and say that they wouldn't pose too much of an issue. Disease rarely actually shows up in any of the games. I'm sure there are others, but G3 being the only example I can think of off the top of my head; there's a side quest to cure a villager of a Shaper-made fungi. Even if they were an issue, healers and magical infirmaries are relatively abundant and seem to be very good at their job. The real issue, as you've identified, is that we'd be showing up as nobodies. Of course, we always start the games as nobodies cleaning up basements full of rats. The critical difference is that most of us aren't actually combat-trained in any suitable way to become adventures. Then again, given how easy it is to gain those skills, as shown in the games, maybe that wouldn't be too difficult. Personally, I'm going to say that's just mechanics and that it would actually be a lot harder in any of the worlds. However, we do have knowledge of skills and technology at our hands. I remember there was an RP a while back where a handful of modern people got stuck in a medieval town. They decided to build a windmill - basic technology to understand and develop, but something that the society hadn't yet done. I think the RP fell apart as they were gathering materials to actually construct the thing, but it is possible to advance in such a manner. Moreover, there's always a place for unskilled labor in technologically-lacking societies. It's problematic to say that any of the three game worlds are particularly technologically lacking. The Shapers are technocrats that have highly specialized knowledge in genetic magic, and colleges devoted specifically to that as well as general magic; in Ermarian, they are better at general magic and have a lot of mages running around doing whatever they please, such that there are specialized careers available as portal technicians, for instance; in Avadon, each nation has their own specialty, either in a way of combat or else magic, and they have some impressive magical feats such as the scarabs and the portal network in the Black Fortress. Realistically, though it sounds odd, the best place for any of us to get dropped off at would probably be Exile, around the time of the first game (if not a little earlier). Just walking through the portal, everyone is presumed a nobody until otherwise proven, and are given an equal allotment of supplies to start their new subterranean life. That starting supply, as well as all available background knowledge, would be our best bet at actually making a decent life for ourselves, even as Avernum is going through some of its most dangerous times (the first Slith War, a nephil castle, demons at the tower and Grah-Hoth, and the inevitable war with the Empire coming soon; I'd say only A6 has Avernum in a comparably bad spot). It can't be too hard getting an apprenticeship studying magic, given how lax Avernum was about it at the time; the Avernite military would be begging to pick people up and train them to fight the manifold problems, especially the war; and there must be all sorts of other positions desperately needing work, too, since the country is still trying to build itself out of nothing. As for the toilet, I'd assume that the sewer systems work like they did in ancient Rome. That is to say, there's a current of sewage flowing underneath, and one does one's business over a latrine. The current flushes it away. It's not the modern toilet, no, but it's workable and relatively sanitary.

I'm glad that you've been able to find a community here among us, with all the attendant benefits that that holds. I know it can't be easy, but I'm glad we could help make it a little easier.

You're thinking of the city of Shayder, capital of the Isle of Bigail and home to the Church of the Anama. Their sewage system is falling apart, though, not the least bit due to the roach plague.

The world of Avadon (Linnaeus, right?) is falling apart at the moment, and according to the codex has been for a while. Political instability and war between the Pact and the outer nations has been a mainstay of life there for a while. I don't think anywhere, therefore, is really all that safe there. Ermarian would be nice. If I get sent down the portal and end up in Exile, I can deal with that. Like others, I'd go to Formello and study. I might sojourn for a while at the Tower of Magi (or Tower Colony) to study there, but given its propensity for disaster I could probably wait. If possible, though, I'd head up the portal right away to live in Upper Avernum, or Dawn on the Surface. The town of Redmark is supposed to have a college there, so I've heard, so that would certainly be an option. Plus, aside from X3, the Surface is by far the safest of the places to live. Terrestia would be enjoyable too. In the glory days of the Shapers, there wouldn't be an issue at all to deal with concerning actually staying comfortable, presuming one isn't in a backwater like Drypeak. However, there's a heavy deal of ethical guilt I'd deal with living in a slave society. However, the lands of the Rebellion would be extremely dangerous to live in due to the constant warfare. In addition, they tend to be pretty miserable lands overall - the freezing Grayghost Mountains, the blasted desert of the Forsaken Lands (lovely name), the disease-infested Fens of Aziraph... Illya and Burwood Province are pretty firmly in Rebel hands by G5, and there are some decent landscapes in the Ashen Islands, though, so I could make do there. Ultimately, I'd have to say that the world of Exile/Avernum would be the best choice. I don't want to get transformed by the Geneforge or using canisters, I don't want to fight in any wars or support slavery, and I don't want to deal with the world war that seems like it could break out in Avadon.

Not a creation, per se, but you'd clearly be a Trakovite if you think it's rubbish in general. As for myself, I reckon I'd be a golem, because I'm slow-moving, can't speak, take forever to kill, and my only way to attack people is by punching them. Wait... We'll say it's because I'm resilient, instead.