alhoon

Hello... I'm in the midsts of GF2 myself. All the places you mention are in the Takers area. So... you've cleared up most of the game. I can't pass dead pass either, I haven't cleared the Infected Pass or crossroads (I doubt I went more than a couple of steps), or actually the Shade patrol and I still work towards my endgame with the Awakened without any problems so far. I got a token from the Icy Breeding pit that lets me cross 1-2 more areas.

All in all, I think you have seen what you can see without joining the Takers or getting powerful enough to crush through them. I would say work towards the endgame but I am no expert.

OK, I know the answer to this is a 99.5% a "lol no!"...

But for that 0.5% I have to ask: Is there any mod that makes Gazak-Uss more plot-worthy? I was stunned that it's the Samman's Isle of GF2 while it is so hyped up and even carries to GF5. Or at the very least a mod that makes it less choke-full of monsters or easier?

I think I went there through a heavily trapped area. And I think it has some nice loot.

Whaa... ?!

Isn't it the big-showdown area? Where everything comes to head? I thought that's where the geneforge would be.

Why the Drakons called Gazaki-Uss after that place if it's indeed, as some NPCs say just a wasteland that Drakons and Shapers threw their most powerful rogues and locked the door?

Thank you for the warning though. I will probably avoid it. I can't believe that I was caught in the hype...

Awakened: It was not an easy choice. I don't agree 100% with the Awakened, mind you. They are right next to the entrance and have just a few tuldaforged mages. Litalia et Co would wipe the floor with them if they come in numbers. The "I ran away" ending told me that 12 Guardians are in the first wave. Well, 12 Guardians could take down Medab.

OK, I take it back... I found a token in the icy pit that allows me to explore further the Taker lands so I still haven't joined. In any case, here's the important part:

Gazak-Uss: There's a servile. A hermit. He told me a wild story about Gazak-Uss. About mad creations made by the Barzites and the Takers and dumped there, sealed. Something about the key shattered. About a "door" the "that is where world lies entombed". Some mumblings and half-words about getting in there only if the others thought I would kill -?-

And there's the GF5 capital called Gazaki-Uss in loving memory of the Litalia'd Gazak-Uss.

I bet that's where Ghaldring is. I will totally go there. I'm not leaving this accursed valley till I check that place that learned Thani hyped so much.

Another thing, Question about build: At the time I'm with 5 Vlish, my 26th level Cryora and Heust Blade (one of my most reliable "creations" so to speak, that hits with 75% when others hit with 25%) I am also at 18 intel thanks to a couple of charms and I sit on ~300 excess essence.

One of my Vlish is "expendable"; I can make and remake it. Sacrifice it if needed to transfer people.

However, there's a Tulda-forged servile I could get to join me once I join the Awakened.

Should I ditch the Cryora that by that time would be like 27-28 lvl? Should I ditch one of my 5 vlish?

Should I start thinking on other creations other than the Vlish army? (A newly shaped Vlish costs hilariously little essence and is 21st lvl. Since it's expendable and I can very easily afford 9 essence, I could enhance the expendable)

Perhaps exchanging Icerim (27 lvl Cryora, have him for 16 levels) with a 26 lvl Drayk? If I manage to betray my poor cryora that is.

75 essence (Drayk with 2 int) vs 39 essence (Cryora) when I have ~300 essence to spare.

EDIT: Nevermind, my problem was solved. I can now make Drakons 8)

Well worth it. Sorry Icerim... it was not meant to be. Litalia would have killed you anyway.

I would love to see Barzahl dying by the 4 Drayks he keeps in pain, and thinking of it, the Gorilla is gone, so I think it would be me and the Drayks if I attack him.

I will "officially" join he Awakened; that would be my "main" ending.

The rest I would do for completion and to see more of the material. But I am exploring still a few of the zones. I figured that I am too low in level yet. Sure, with my leadership and mechanics I should be able to find the non-combat routes. But they are often hard to find so I prefer to level up a bit and some of the zones are interesting (while some are boring and some are frustrating; I am in an icy place where I am swarmed by a dozen high level Fyoras and later on, several drayks).

And I want to See Barzahl's face when the Drayks turn against him. And since I can't see his face, I want to read the text.

And I want to see lying Zakary the deceiver's tears as he begs for his useless life. And since I can't see them, I want to read the text of him... well, dying since I doubt I'll get much out of him.

I joined the Awakened to see what they ask once I join... but they didn't ask me to kill anyone. They want me to sabotage the radiant college so that they can't make canisters. Or, failing that, kill the leaders but they don't care if they survive. I don't know why they didn't ask me to kill Barzahl. Then I loaded. I am still unaligned. I will soon join the Awakened, cause to explore the Takers lands I need to be way tougher than I am it seems.

Clockwork maze:
Drakon cyborg. Lol.
Oh Come on! I wandered through this clockwork maze and I found the anticlimatic ending... the brilliant, Taygen-level brilliant, shaper was dead. From old age.
And the whole complex is nice and empty and the golems are now damaged (because I deactivated their sensors) meaning the Bazrites can move in.

Question: There's a nice (incomplete) golem there. Is it one of the creatures I could take with me? Cause I don't see any dialogue for fixing it. I have high mechanics and read Kari's notes but there's not an option.

Sharon's ring: For all that's holy! That's among the three best artifact I've seen in 4 games!
I have now (if I don my specialized equipment) 15 leadership and 16 mechanics. I don't need to worry about raising them any more right? 12 or so was the top needed in he previous games except veeery few things.

It's official: Sharon is my favorite GF2 Shaper. Perhaps favorite Shaper.

Toll road:
If found my first Drakon-that-talks. Dryss. He doesn't draw s' always. Strange. He shook me for 500 coins though. I had a ton of leadership and couldn't avoid it.
A pity Drakon doesn't share Dryss' view of "That we're stronger than Serviles doesn't mean we get to bully them!"
And afterwords the $%^#! creature told me there are Drayks there that they will attack me, he just won't ask them to attack me...

My 23 lvl creations have like 5% to 10% chance to hit the Drayks without bless. Why Drayks that I could make are nowhere that close?
Beyond that place is an infested roads that I have real trouble crossing, so I'll leave it for the time.

Talked with the awakened about joining. Two sensible, easy quests that I can totally avoid with leadership. Since I have killed the Drayk already, I am more than easily accepted if I want to join...
Talked with the Takers about joining. Quest to join? Go kill Barzahl by freeing the creations. Good one Takers, good one.  I have sabotaged the controls which deactivates the option to break them. They may still join me, but I don't think that I can take Barzahl out already.

Welcome to the forums.

Awesome question.

If I could expand it... how long till Shaped Serviles are ready to handle tools? Some Serviles seem to be Shaped with technical information like an instinct or something. But are they able to go repairing things like 10 minutes after they're created?

Same with batons, mines and living tools that are Shaped and not Bred like usual. Can they actually be used immediately or they require training like the bred varieties?

Most games (if not all) explain that the Outsiders can use them, that's not the issue. I just wonder how they use them. They would probably be more puzzled on how I use a computer I guess. It's not like I'm not giving the computer very complex instructions.

Some of the GF2 factions have living tools where the Shapers tell them to multiply. Probably they multiply like worms.

However, my hesitation with the "press the stem that way and it moves tentacle that way" is that we're talking three tentacles, 3D movement. Aside of being kind of hard to train the living tool, it would take hell of a lot of practice of an outsider engineer to work them properly and still slower than a Shaper.

Meaning, usual tools (The ones we see around shaper bases) would be perhaps better to use by outsiders.

Welcome to the Arena modification for Geneforge 5. As the name of the mod implies, this is a mod where you pit your character against an assortment of enemies.

The Arena mod, while fun, is not a full gameplay mod. There are no quests, there are no deep NPCs etc. It started as an effort to test the various changes I make as I work on the "Total Conversion Mod". However, new battle scripts and changes in items and creations give this mod an air of freshness.

The premise of this mod, is that your character is in a dream. It requires you to start a new game.

You start at 18th level, in a large room. A Drakon Lifecrafter nearby can boost your level, abilities, spells etc. A Shaper can create enemies and allies for you. There are 4 chests with equipment of different tiers for you to choose.
Once ready and you have told the Shaper to bring in the enemies, proceed to the next room. There's a signpost there. Read it and start the fight.

DOWNLOAD LINKS:

Link 1: http://www.mediafire.com/file/km52qxbj3pvq1gy/ArenaGF5.rar

INSTALLATION:

To install:
- Backup your "Geneforge 5" folder.
- Copy and paste the folder "Geneforge 5" to your Geneforge folder (where all the Geneforge games are). You should be prompted that some files will be overwritten. Accept and the mod will be installed.

To uninstall:
Simply overwrite the Geneforge 5 folder with the original from your back up.

The mod is tested and works with a clean installation of Geneforge 5 on Windows 10. It has not been tested for MAC.

This mod is not compatible with your GF5 saves! Don't try to use it with your normal GF5.

There is no wrong way to use this mod. If you want to make a character with 30 intelligence at 18th lvl so you can have a bazillion of top creations at full modifications, all the power to you. If you want to give your character Battle Shaping 15 and Shape Clawbug 15 to make 45 lvl clawbugs, so be it. If on the other hand want something more reasonable, like a lvl 23 character with mid-early equipment and 3-4 tier 2 creations and see how you fare against moderate enemies, so much the better. And of course, if you want to see how a pair of Battle Alphas fares against a rotgroth, all you have to do is Shape those Alphas and have them fight the Rotgroth without you interfering.
As said, no wrong way to use this mod.

Changes from the normal combat gameplay of GF5:
- The levels of most creations is different with a larger gap in power between the various creations.
- Some items have changed
- There are new NPC types (Batoneers, conscripts, Shocktroopers, Lifecrafters, Prospectives etc)

- There are a couple new Creations
- Some enemies have more complicated scripts

What you should be aware of:
- Not all creation types are available for the Player to Shape; I have put in only the creations that would be present in the total conversion mod.
- The scope of the total conversion mod is to be from levels 18-35 or so. However the intention is to make the world of the total conversion as such, that a level 35 character doesn't have immense power able to stomp everything underfoot.
- The chests are in "tiers". Beginning, mid-early, mid-late, end-game.
- There is an option to activate a "Healing field". This may periodically heal a few of your enemies every turn.
- In one of the chests are "sanity crystals". Having them in your equipment would be a great boon when fighting a Dementor.

- Therions are slightly overpowered compared to their essence cost compared to other Tier 2 creations. This is intentional because in the actual game learning to Shape them will require more effort.

A new one:

Living tools.

How non-Shapers use them? I bet that's somewhere in GF1.

For Batons, we know that when their tail is pressed, they shoot a thorn. But living tools do more complicated jobs than "fire!" They have to twist their tentacles in specific ways etc. A Shaper could just control the tool and tell it what to do, direct it on what to do. An outsider?  

How dare you sir!? I am not a lawful representative of the oppressive, evil, genocidal regime that kills PhD candidates. I have turned my back to these snakes. I would have killed Agent Shanti myself if I had the chance, to give more time to my friends to prepare for the Litapocalypse.

If I had a monocle, a tall hat and a cane I would challenge you to a duel over this. (I have a goatee so that part is OK)

I think it may be a bug because I assumed the creatures would be -neutral- not friendly. If they're friendly, then all I have to do to get people killed is turn them hostile (without turning the guards hostile).

EDIT: Not nice. I feel again as I was feeling when doing Shaper quests in GF4. That is, guilty. OK, Stanis was a butthole. But the way he died? As it played out, betrayed by me as I sabotaged the machinery since I was as much a coward as he said and my Vlish were keeping him immobilized while my servile was hitting him with acid.

That's a bad way to go... Sure, Shanti suffered the same indignation, but I wish I was better than Stanis. At least, he will get a grave.

Awesome... I don't care about what they will think of me anyway.

And it's not dirty work to rat out someone. I plan to eventually kill Barzahl anyway. Or, ahem, have those 4 drayks he keeps in pain to do the dirty  noble work for me. Poetic justice and all. Because it just that I don't face someone that powerful.

I will try have him killed by Heust Blade, my Servile follower. I will keep loading till that Barzite dies from a servile. In hindsight, that's not much better than what he did to Shanti, but ... well, I can't defend that. It's more about revenge than justice here. I would also have killed Shanti and I want the Barzite to die a humiliating death.

I blame the canisters.  

EDIT: OK, I know that you all told me to cut down on the Edits, but this happened and made me think it's a bug:

Trying to go to the Arena, I accidentally clicked on what I thought was a random guard. He wasn't. He was a Barzite Guardian that have gone full-canister mad, Trotkan. I told him I don't think he's a real guardian and he attacked me. Having a full roaster, I didn't think much of it, until I saw two Alphas from the guards approaching and I thought "Oh, oh... if all the guards turn hostile to support the Barzite I'm in trouble". Well, they weren't. They attacked the Barzite. I may have messed with the controls of the torture pylons but since I didn't get a message now that the Pylons are bad, I think it was a bug of the form of "creature turns hostile, friendly creatures attack it".

In case it isn't and it has to do with the Pylons: Can I later do the Barzite ending (if I ever find the courage to join them) or I have locked that out half-way through the game?

What I meant is that I got the same Dialogue from Barzahl. I couldn't rat out the canister-addled gorilla and tell Barzahl, "I found evidence that thing lied to you, Shanti was humiliated and murdered; not died in an accident, not executed legally."

All I can say is that "the story stinks! I want to challenge that huge, Shaped-to-lolness guy in a one-to-one fight without creations" which seems a not nice way to make a suicide. I am a Shaper, I can't fight alone. Or actually fight for that manner. My battle magic is still pathetically low. I cast blessings on my creations in battles and try to not block their path to the enemy.

Investigating the Crystal caverns at lvl 21. Wandered around, didn't start any trouble. Found a 600+hp cryodrayk that has a perfect crystal. A crystal I need... for an artifact I thing.
I commanded successfully the Drayk to hand it over. But I feel bad for lording around the poor mad creature. I hope the artifact I'll make will make me feel better. I still need to find a drayk's tendon.
If I find out that I took over the mind of a free creature and stole its toy (that kept it calm) only to get something that I will sell, I'll be quite sad.

Found Agent Shanti's body.
It was sensible to have her executed but there's sadistic cruelty in the way it was done. Have I found her alive, I would have killed too, that's true. But I would give her a more honorable death than shooting her in the back while she was disguised as a servile and dumping her body. They could have at least put her in a grave.
To add insult to injury, I can't tell Barzahl that his gorilla executed Agent Shanti despite orders. I thought that would be the "leadership" way to kill my first Barzite.

Either through experimentation, or if you're proficient with the editor, from the editor.

Allow me to help please

That is not the command that adds an Artilla. What this command does, it remove 300 coins from the PC (minimum left 0) and set a "flag" for the game, specifically the flag 41,20 to 1.

The flag 41,20 in this case is used to track whether the Artilla can be added to the party. You have to talk to the artilla and get it to join.

The command that adds a character to the party is:

add_char_to_party(X+8);

with "X" being the number of the character in that zone. For example if I want to add the 50th character in the zone (which I should know who it is) I would put

  add_char_to_party(58);

Why 58 and not 50? Because the numbers 0-7 are for the character and the creatures in the player's group.

From my committee (7 members), 2 openly admitted they have not read the whole thing, true. But even if they were an aggressive bunch, I had a very low risk of death whether I was an incompetent and weakling or not; I would not earn my PhD, but I wouldn't be turned to fertilizer for those rapidly growing plants.

In military officer academies around the world, there's indeed some (very low) risk of death but mostly during training or live ammo shooting. Those without stomach for it are weeded out through non-lethal hardship, like Greta was. Not because as a test they're put through a maze full of enemies and deadly traps.

It is cruel, it is wrong and shows not only elitism, but pettiness towards those that are not up to very specific standards.

I am not saying the early rebel way of sending half-trained people to the geneforge or handing out canisters like candy is the proper method, but at it has a better survival rate.

Shamelessly stolen and sent to various friends and classmates that will defend their thesis within a year. I even sent it to my own students. I'll make sure that I sit near the door during their Thesis defense.

Hmmm... your analogy is good.

However to continue with it: As far docs go in universities we have T.As (my level), Lecturers, assistant professors, associate professors and full professors. Deans can (in my uni) be only associate professors or full professors and Rectors can only be full professors.

Clear and defined ranks. Are all T.As equal? Nope (publications, experience, PhD supervisor). Associate professors? Again nope.

But there are ranks.

I understand the analogy of what you say. I understand that the term "novice" given in GF3 for pre-apprentice Shaper could be a local rank just in use in Greenwood academy and other academies may have called them with other names. I understand that the term "Prospective" is more or less "defended the PhD thesis successfully but has not be sworn in as a doc yet before the council" (we give an oath in front of the council here and we're announced in the parliament's paper; in other countries the president is the one announcing them all together).

However... while it is tempting to use that simple analogy of yours, what makes us think that it is that way and the names on the loading screen are non-canonical? That the Shapers are using the doc analogy and not something similar to uni professor ranks?

Mostly to put my thoughts in order, I will put in pros and cons of the "PhD analogy".

Pros:

- Simplicity. In the absence of further evidence the simplest answer is often the true one.

- There is little distinction in dialogue between shapers aside of trash-talking apprentices and novices and respecting councilors.

- Explains why some Shapers have honorifics like "Sage Quothe" or "General Corby". It's because it reflects their current job and they keep the title later. A Professor has a PhD but he's called professor after all usually not dr.

- Another validation of the moral superiority of the Rebellion*

Cons:

- The loading screens name Journeymen and Masters. 

Since "Authority: journeyman" does not necessarily mean "rank" but perhaps is a classification like "junior researcher" ... Yeah, I'm going with your version Triumph.  

* Of course the "PhD analogy" puts some things into perspective.

When I defended my PhD, the 7 professors of the committee asked some questions. My supervisor would have supported me if needed (it wasn't needed, my defense was very tame and friendly).

When Shapers have to go through the equivalent test (Testing Fields) they have to fight several scorpions big like motorbikes, acid-spitting quadruples big as panthers, gorilla-like apes (thands) or deactivate bombs, cut through locks as good as the average safe and repair machinery (else they will be attacked by aforementioned monsters).

All that so they can finally start learning.

The Testing Halls are strewn with graves.

How many PhD candidates have died in defense of their Thesis?

Preposterous, bloodthirsty system that propagates an evil elitist magocracy.

And before we start with "Shaping is... " analogies, please remember:

We have people in the forum that are researchers of genetics. They can do some real damage too if they make an accident or worse, if they do it on purpose.

Yet, the threat of bioterrorism or a modified plant acting as weed and choking out other flora has not been considered a reason for people that study genetics to risk their lives to get a PhD in genetics.

3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Speaking of Shapers and rules: have you met a fellow named Aodare yet? You'll know him when you find him. Or what about visiting the Loyalist Encampment zone? Knowing your high standards for what constitutes an orthodox Shaper, I'm curious if any of these folks will qualify for the "True Shaper" Hall of Fame.

I haven't spent much time with them, but they're among the least obnoxious Shapers I've met I think. I haven't seen them doing anything non-Shapery and them suggesting to me to not trust lying Zakary the deceiver and that being unaligned is smart makes them orthodox in my book so far. They're the ones responsible for making me figure out that I could just... walk out of the valley. I "finished" (lol, good one) the game after them. OK, their agent knows too much about Shaping, but that's not unorthodox, just not common.

Also, I don't think I have high standards for Shaper orthodoxy. Lord Rahul counts as one, Santi as another. Both were justifiably killed by the Rebellion in canon but as far as I know they were orthodox Shapers. I admit I haven't search Rahul's place; it's totally possible I will find a canister locked in his chamber or something sinister. But so far, he seems the traditional annoying Shaper. The Guardian that protects Taygen and disagrees with him is also traditional IMO.

2 hours ago, Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch Cherry Bomb said:

Alhoon, just because the word "novice" is used doesn't mean it is a distinct formal rank.  It might just be another word that is used for apprentices, or maybe it is used loosely to refer to any number of a range of early-career Shapers and Shaper trainees.  That goes for ALL OF THESE WORDS.  Unless it is clear that it is being used in a specific, discriminating way, which is true of few if any of these.

Oh.

Haven't thought of that.

So you mean the whole lot of the people in Greenwood academy could be (or perhaps not) of the same rank as the people that finished the academy and were doing their apprentiships like the GF2 protagonist?

It is possible.

There is one "young Shaper" in GF4, the first boss I encountered. And actually the first Shaper I ever saw. I haven't seen their sprite yet. I can tell you that a single robed figure standing alone in the way was very intimidating...

 Thinking of it the text says "he must be a young shaper" without giving any rank. But perhaps that was not because the Shapers lack ranks, but because the rebel I was playing didn't know of them.

I am not entirely convinced though. The Shapers are too many to not have some ranks other than councilor and prospective.

In any case, do you believe the system is more or less apprentice < Shaper < Councilor ?

Lord Rahul is below councilors? But... I think it was mentioned in GF3 the Ashen Isles are a province. Were they bundled in with Burnwood province perhaps? So, lying Zakary the Deceiver is also a Lord? Or just Shaper-boss over a large number of low-ranking Shapers?

Prospectives are mentioned in GF3 and GF5, novices in GF3 and apprentices in GF2 and GF3 although I forget the GF3 definition of the Apprentice, novice, prospective. It was detailed in early GF3. I have to go read those parts.

It would make sense from in game perspective to have no clear rank for "Full" Shapers aside of "X person has permission to Shape up to Alphas and Artilae" (Journeyman authority required).  

Does anyone know if the loading-screen information is canonical? Cause there it mentions "authority required" as "all", "Journeyman", "Master", "Barred". They also mention War Tralls as some -really- dangerous creations with high probability to go rogue and fertile. And yet, many Shapers have an abundance of them. More than Kyshaaks; that may explode on creation or wingbolts that the Shapers (as of GF4) have not determined their tendency to go rogue and have remnants of failed experiments.

Really, when GF4 says the Shapers threw the rules out the window, it's not joking...

28 minutes ago, Triumph said:

 

Now I'm really curious which of the three Slarty thinks had the best shot...?

Please, please, use spoiler tags! I won't be able to overlook that info. Please?

I don't have time to finish the game with even one faction, let alone 3, before that post is answered.

24 minutes ago, Nim said:

Where did you get this idea from ?

From Zakary and the Barzites.

No, G3-5 knowledge doesn't matter here. At this point in time the council is notoriously slow to act, nevermind that we have an example of a full shaper gone missing and nothing happened (Sharon). Zak and Barzahl managed to abscond with lots of knowledge and serviles from Sucia and years later the council doesn't even know. At best they'll send another agent at some point to investigate.

In GF3-5 the council is also notoriously slow to act.

As in, there have been years of preparations and the Shapers haven't figured there was a rebellion brewing in GF3, the Rebellion was going strong for years taking up land and fortifying before the "Shaper armies came" in GF4 and they were beating back the Rebellion on all fronts and... in GF5 you have to win the war for the council yourself because they're so divided that you need to smack some sense to 3/7 remaining councilors for them to agree to attack Gazaki-Uss.

I mean, the Drakons have been there for some time, and the Shapers evidently had the forces to attack Gazaki Uss even if they lost part of their forces (Rockfall). If another councilor was with Astoria (we see another Guardian aside of Alwan in the Council), or if the council grabbed Rawal by the throat and told him "You know what? Unless you write right now the command for half your Shapers and Creations to march to Gazaki-Uss, you won't live the Citadel alive" they wouldn't even need my PC.

You're right about Sharon, but... Sharon wasn't sent to investigate the state of a colony. However, you're right that by the time someone asks "what happened with the investigation on colonies A, B, C, Drypeak, E and F?", gets a reply "we heard X from A-F, but Shanti never came back", then it goes all the way up, and council dispatches more people it could perhaps be 1-2 years.

Man, the Shapers have grown to be completely useless in administration and government. For all their talk of Empire, government-wise all the can do is bully untrained outsiders and serviles. It was well beyond their time to be toppled.

However, Sharon mentions that while it's not unheard of, it's not common for Shapers to go "overlooked". And Sharon was actively hiding; for all we know the council may have been aware she was missing but not where she has been holed up.

As such, yes, there's a chance Santi and an apprentice would never be looked up in the inefficient bureaucracy of the Shapers but from what I heard from Sharon and Santi, there's a greater probability that they will be looked for.

You really need to try to forget the later games while playing G2. That knowledge only hinders you.

I respectfully disagree.

Another thought: Sharon's disappearance (and she's not the only Shaper that went dark; Khyrik or how the Trakovite boss in GF4 was named, also deserted I think) helps explain those other minor rebellions (eliminated from history books according to later games) and how all these barred places came to be.  

I guess that half the times the Guardians have to deal with something serious, it's a Shaper that went rogue or deserted.