alhoon

Can we please have a custom "double like!" button for this post?

I tested the tool and it works. It works better than the one I made (for matlab) so I'll be using this.

There may be some very minor mistakes in the zone, you are advised to walk around it and check for any wall that connects wrong or a dirt path curving upwards or something and manually correct it.

You might also encounter the "invisible door" bug. While Kian tried to use the door that we assume is in all tilesets, there are two sets of doors so the one Kian picked may not be present in all tilesets (although it is in the ones I've tested).

Kian: Can you upload it somewhere else too please? In case you change dropbox, delete it by accident, get hit by Drakon hackers etc?

I'd suggest to people interested to not be intimidated by the apparent difficulty of adding a zone and the original alien-ess of the BoG spreadsheet. Yes, you should have backups and follow the instructions and you would hit a few Crash-to-desktops. But after a couple of tries you would get the hang of it.

I've managed to create a zone using a more difficult to use tool than the awesome zonelab Kian made, populate it, put quests in it etc.

If I can do it, so can you.

And Kian made it easy.

(alhoon wanted a shoutout for trying to convince you to do this, cheerleading to boost your efforts and the chromatic code)

2 hours ago, feat. Ganrick said:

It also shows that Litalia is an unreliable source -- her level of canister use makes this point as well -- as I think alhoon agreed earlier in the conversation.  I don't think it makes sense to assume that anything an unreliable source says is true unless there is outside evidence for it.

Pretty much that, as I've learned to my horror from dealing with Lying Zakary the Deceiver... As we discussed before we play in GF5 a person that lost his memory from canisters. A few spotchy spots on Litalia's memory that she chooses to fill with glory are expected. And of course there's the reason for her to lie as you describe.

As for Litalia in Drypeaks: The GF3 part you mentioned doesn't mention her melting down and running for the rear disillusioned, more like deserting for the Rebellion disillusioned. It is the GF4 version with less details. And I believe she gives less details because the Rebellion is starting and she's below the Drakons at that point, calling them "masters". She's also already mad. In the GF4 the way I interpret the story is that she became disillusioned on the Drypeaks and then met Ghaldring. She also mentions that killing serviles was a task she did but she "failed" the loyalty check. I.e. the GF3 version is not much different from GF4. Her involvement is not stated to have ended with dealing a few disloyal serviles and then deserting.

Litalia however seems to have been talented even before the Canisters. Jared also uses tons of canisters and he never reaches the level of importance, or power, that Litalia has.

The second account, which I agree seems less reliable, is also Litalia out of the Rebellion. She can be more open about hitting the Rebellion hard because she's not as emotionally invested in it any more.

So I believe the truth is somewhere between the GF3/4 tale (which I find similar enough) and GF5 tale. Perhaps more towards the GF3/4 tale than GF5 tale. While I don't remember specifics, Litalia is not the only one mentioning she was in the Drypeaks; Ghaldring says that too I think. I have to go find him in GF4 and read his tale. It would explain partially his iron-clad loyalty to Litalia.

And the bottom line is this: I know that Litalia was not the deciding factor in the Shaper victory in Drypeaks. She was too young to be the Alwan of the place crushing the rebels or have any significant authority in an era where Shapers felt invincible.

However... Litalia is the only one I know and she had had her hand in several genocides. If Lord Rahul had told me he was the leading Shaper in the force fighting in the Drypeaks, I would have believed him and I would be blaming him now for killing my friends. Litalia has the name-recognition so to speak and gives me a target to blame (even unfairingly) for the fall of my friends.

So, I will still keep referring to the approaching purge as "Litapocalypse" and the Shaper expeditionary force as "Litalia et al.". I realize that's twisting the story and putting the blame on the one individual that had a small part of the blame and instead helped Ghaldring escape making the rebellion possible.

It feels nice on the tongue though.

And would positively infuriate the many other Shapers that took part in the battle and did the heavy-lifting to sideline them and remember only the apprentice that deserted.

I realize that for a person making a living on historical accuracy that's worse blasphemy than a Barzite saying power is overestimated. Please don't take this as a kind of disrespect for the work you do or an indication on my stance on real world historical persons. In life, I don't put the blame on one or two persons for anything.

I.e. I wouldn't blame the Roman empire's decline on 2-3 bad emperors or something "cause it was shorter than going through the long list of reasons and persons and I never liked Nero."

TL;DR:

I agree 2/3 with you Triumph. But it still is convenient and feels nice for me to put it all on Litalia for reasons. I do this for the game not in real life.

29 minutes ago, TheKian said:

Leaving early != canon.

Keep in mind that Litalia is actually only there in the 2 possible canon endings. She's an apprentice at that time. She came with a Shaper handler.

That's what she says in GF4, but not what she says in GF5...

Also, in GF4 she says she was told to kill disloyal serviles under a watcher. While probably she meant the Drypeaks, she may refer to the early days of the Shaper attack, or before it.

And regardless of her importance in the attack (which she probably inflated) ... I don't know anyone else to blame from the bunch that will kill my friends! So I'll bunch them up with Litalia since she was there burning serviles and making hordes. And I believe her when she says she led the final assault on the Drakons (because if she didn't, how could she have saved Ghaldring and the rest?)

But I figured leaving early was not canonical from the ending I read.

True, but 12 Guardians in the first wave... is definitely more than what Litalia said in GF5, and more than I guessed from her comments in GF4 since I wouldn't call a dozen Guardians "a handful". Even if it's just those 12 Guardians initially and the council sends Litalia alone afterwards (highly unlikely) it's still 12 Shapers + Litalia.

Oh great... I missed it.

Thank you very much. Not sure I'm going to like the Takers. I was told they're creations only (or mostly; can't trust the gossip of other factions). That means... Drakons. Never ever liked Drakons. That I dislike them less than the Bazrites  doesn't mean I don't dislike them.

And I bet they will want to kill my Awakened friends, before the Litapocalypse.

As a note I already got the "coward's ending" by leaving after meeting with Barzahl, without trying to align with anyone. 12 Guardians go just to kill Zakary before they get their butt handed to them. I guess that's where Litalia and co come in. So it's definitely more than Litalia's insinuations in GF4-5 of "We went up there with a handful of Shapers, but awesome me did most of the work, really."

There's no way I could sleep at night if I did that. I am not even sure I would be able to join those abominations to see all endings (like I couldn't do Taygen in GF5). I didn't think there would be people treating creations worse than Taygen.

I was wrong.  

I always sympathized with the serviles. They are treated as living tools, killed for sport when needed or armed and thrown to ... a potential recruit (me) for the lulz and to test me.

I never liked the Drakons. Never. But to see a Drakon in the Radiant college immobile and held in firm control by constant suffering? That was somehow a slap to the face. And we're talking about Drakons here, that I dislike. The 4 drayks around Barzahl, that the text says they are in constant pain? That don't even look at me according to the text?

That's too far.

I really plan to go Litalia on them when I get the levels, and start spamming creations from a corner to kill everyone in their zones. Including the suffering Drakons and Drayks. They would prefer to die fighting I think, from a life like this. Especially the Drakon. Ghaldring would understand.

...

I looked in that place for like 20 minutes. And I have missed a whole box? I've found the 2 boxes. Perhaps the 3rd too...

to be sincere, I opened the 2nd door and didn't step out to see if I'll get zapped to death. If I am that stupid I believe I'll stay in Drypeak to be purged by Litalia along with my awakened friends.

Total. Thankfully GF5 allows me to see how much is blocked and how much passes. I couldn't do that test in early GF games that cut the resisted armor.

Well, I could, but I couldn't know if it added up to what it should.

And a shameless brag here: I pull nearly as much damage as a war trall...  With often 2 attacks thanks to my assassin's boots.

I believe I can take a war trall in one to one combat thanks to my armor, even if I have far less hp.

I will kill him because I don't like him at all. Or, well, let Litalia kill him. Or actually kill him because I want the Wisdom charm.  

I can convince him to let me go. But if I attack him, he kills me.

The gate guards? I found some serviles in a gate house but they just didn't attack me, they didn't deactivate the Pylons or anything. Can I convince them to let me pass? I have leadership 10.

Blessed... Glaahks? I'm 19 level. I cannot afford Glaahks since I spent my money on Drayks (not worth the money, bad investment of 3000 coins. Damned Barzites)

My Vlish cannot hit him, except Horrorshiver (Terror Vlish).

After a lot of frustration, reloads, inglorious deaths, rage-quits, dead-end run-arounds... I cannot breach the Bazrite Gate to go to the Takers. I have to find a different route, perhaps from the Awakened or something.

I can't even take my frustration to that rude Barzite guardian either, because he's too tough for me yet. He can kill me before I manage to run away and my creations have a low chance to hit him even if I do escape...

But as we say here, "laughs better, the one laughing in the end " you arrogant Bazrite piece of crap. Make all the snide comments you want about your gates and pylons and power. You don't know that

Done some tests on whether dex affects ranged weapon damage.

Geneforge 5

Damage done with Physician's baton, dex 2, against Gazer creation.

Missile 21, baton level 9, damage is d8, base damage is +16

181
173
168
139
154
151
161
144
149
136

Mean: 155,6 damage

Consistent with 30d8 + 16 damage without adding dex.

Dex 12, against the same creation, same equipment
142
149
165
157
152
148
158
154
160
143
153

Mean: 152,8 damage

Consistent with 30d8 + 16 damage without adding dex.

At least in GF5, I am positive that dexterity doesn't add to damage.

14 minutes ago, feat. Ganrick said:

"Misleading" just means that it is likely to mislead someone.

 

It doesn't mean there is an intent to mislead.  You could specify that by saying "intentionally misleading" or "unintentionally misleading" for example.

 

I do think it was fair to call your original description of the mod misleading.  It would have been easy for a newcomer to read that and think it was a small but nonetheless deliberately designed modification, when it fact the modification was plucked out of thin air by someone who, by your own statement, has never used a melee character in any of these games.  (Also there was the 50% thing, which was misleading for a very different reason: you didn't even understand what you'd done )

Oh, well, English is not my 1st language. As long as we're clear I wasn't trying to pull a Zakary-esque deception on anyone, I don't mind.

Although to my defense I do say it's a very basic mod that just increases melee damage.

And I will probably continue not using a melee character in these games and I will not use that mod cause I don't find melee enemies underpowered. Well, I do, but I mean the encounters are balanced by the presence of adequate numbers / ranged enemies.

It's not just that I find melee warriors underpowered; it's that I find them unappealing. But since other mentioned it, I made the mod.

To be sincere, I saw this:

Quote

I agree with Lilith.  G1 "reach it and it dies" was fun.  Melee got slowly nerfed: G2 nerfed it somewhat for the PC only (removing Anatomy), and then G3 nerfed it a lot for ALL characters, reducing melee dice from d8's to d4's and d5's.

and thought to do something nice for you as a thank you for your dedication to the series and your role in me trying GF2, crude as I find the mechanics.

I know that you could have made that change within 10 minutes if you wanted, or change it to whatever number you want but I thought to spare you of those 10 minutes of going through a big database and checking imports. Then I thought "perhaps someone else may like it" after you implied you wanted something more balanced and concrete than a d4 to d6 mod and I have already made it.

Thank you... now it's my turn to go and change the readme and that one mention of 50%...

31 minutes ago, feat. Ganrick said:

You did not call it a "mod" in quotes in the topic you made for it.  I think your presentation is misleading at best.  I don't understand why in the world you want to advertise this thing to other people.

 

As I noted in the other thread, if those are the changes you made, you did not increase damage by 50%.  You increased it by 40% (for former d4's) and 33% (for former d5's).  (I don't think any d6 melee attacks are used by the PC, but it's possible I'm forgetting something from a later game.)

I didn't call it a "mod" there because as you rightly said it is technically a mod.

I did call it  a very basic mod though and never said it is a comprehensive well-thought mod that solves the balance issues between melee and missile combat. It is what I say it is: A very basic mod that increases damage and gave a (wrong) example which I now corrected.

I advertise it to other people because someone may want to try it despite your disagreement with its validity, or someone may think that a hefty increase in melee damage across the board would be fun.

You don't like it and that's your opinion and is valid.  I can't say that I like that modification either and I am the one that made it. That doesn't mean that nobody will like it.

I made it and advertised it for people that want a quick patch to increase damage and that's what the mod is advertised as and that's what it does.

You are also right that I changed the mean damage by 40% or 33% (I was thinking maximum damage, not mean). But it was a mistake, It was no attempt to mislead and misdirect. I have nothing to gain by misleading people. Honest mistake here.

If I may, why you call the presentation "misleading at best"? Just because of that error or you think I was attempting to lie for some reason?

Apologies, but I have tested the changes. In no way extensively but the "hasn't tested the changes at all" is inaccurate as it could be taken as "has not tested the mod works", which I have done. So while your criticism is valid, that comment could lead people to false conclusions.

Of course, and let's not forget that you need to get to the enemy and fire. Which means that the missile character can down a pod, throw a crystal and then fire, while the poor melee character has to spend those action points to reach the target. That's also a big disadvantage especially for characters that rely on items for the magic.

It also means you can't put your big many-hp creations to block the passage while you rain thorns from safety.

I don't disagree on that at all. There's a reason I play missile warrior and it's not the damage.  

For near-solo, I would say that what I mentioned earlier, the wasted AP, are still important enough to tip the balance, again, to missile.

Say you have drank a haste pod before the encounter... but you still can't get your 2nd attack because you have to move 4 AP.

Coming from a missile warrior player that has several creations on tow: In my warrior mod one of the last benefits you get from the fort is that you may get a boost on your walking speed, meaning you get can move further per action point in combat. It is very good despite the creations and the missile weapons. I can move, throw heal  spores and move back out and still fire. Action points in geneforge are very important.

This very basic mod increases the melee damage done by weapons and creations for GF3-5.
The mod doesn't affect the damage done by status effects. I.e. a Rotgroth's acid will deal the same damage, while the punch itself will deal 40% more damage.

The mod is not compatible with mods that change the gfobjsmisc.txt like artifact baton mod.

To install:
GF3: Go to Geneforge3 > Data > Scripts folder and overwrite the gf3objsmisc.txt file.
GF4: Go to Geneforge4 > Data > Scripts folder and overwrite the gf4objsmisc.txt file.
GF5: Go to Geneforge5 > Data > Scripts folder and overwrite the gf5objsmisc.txt file.

I don't profess to have examined the effects on game balance increasing the melee damage would have, but this mod is for those that feel melee damage for creations and the PC could benefit from some boost.

DOWNLOAD HERE (Changed to a less obnoxious site.)

17 minutes ago, Cotra, when the walls fell said:

Respectfully, there's a difference between a thoughtful balance mod and randomly changing a few numbers (on classes you've never played!!) without even checking to see what effect they'll have.

 

Melee attack dice come from more than 5 entries, btw.  Some are more obscure than others -- not all are labelled in the // comments.  No, I'm not going to make a list for you.

 

I'm not actually clear at all on whether or not Dexterity increases missile damage (for the PC only) in G1-2.  It obviously doesn't for creations.  But I'm finding lots of contradictory statements; one person known for disassembly stated it does, while lots of people who say it doesn't seem to be just repeating the conventional wisdom.  This may be a case where the CW arose out of an inaccurate tooltip and is just wrong.

Of course there is a difference between a careful, thoughtful balance mod and just increasing melee damage by 50%. I don't disagree with that. That's why I called the increasing-damage a "mod" and not a mod.

But the "random" increase from 4~>6, 5~>7, 6~>9 came from your nostalgic comment of "They decreased the d8s and 10s to d4s and d5s". Well, I changed them to d6s and d7s.

Yes, melee entries were more than 5 but I checked which entries imported melee attacks and I believe I caught them all, including the well hidden Gazer's touch attack. And your pardon, but I didn't plan to ask you for a list.

I didn't change the damage of the status effects that go with the melee attacks BTW, just the damage itself.

Dex on missile weapons: To be sincere, I think those that say dex adds are right. I went with the tooltip, but it probably does. I'll make a check by reducing my missile character's check to 2 and then increasing it to 12 to compare.

15 minutes ago, Lilith said:

 

Yes, melee attacks are worse. Yes, really.

 

Keep in mind that nearly all enemies also have significant resistance to physical damage, while there are a number of important enemies with zero resistance to elemental damage types (notably, Unbound are completely vulnerable to magic damage, and quite a few enemies are completely vulnerable to cold).

Oh, I completely agree that physical damage is subpar often, I don't disagree.

I wasn't commenting on the "physical damage is underrated", I was commenting on the melee \ missile attack. Javelins and batons do physical damage too and the Unbound are as resistant to baton physical attacks as sword attacks.

OK, it took me 10 minutes to make a "mod" that increases melee damage by 50% for GF5.

I'll change GF4 and GF3 too and post them somewhere.

I still think melee is not underpowered but since it's so easy... I'll just upload it and not use it.

First, such a balance mod would be very, very easy to make.

Melee attack dice are... 5 entries in the gfXobjsmisc.txt [X=3, 4 or 5] ? 10?

But again, as someone that hasn't played melee warriors I have to ask:

Are melee attacks worse when you can combine your weapon with some crystal for extra damage, strength adds dice like melee and you can wear better armor because of higher strength?

Dexterity, doesn't add damage dice.

So a character with strength 7, melee 9 and an iron broadsword (8 levels) deals 24 dice. that's 24-120 damage.

A character with dex 7, missile 9 and a steel javelin (6 levels) deals 14 dice. That's 14 - 56 damage. Less than half what the melee character deals.  

Same missile character with a venom baton deals 14 - 42 damage + poison.

By the time poison would have covered the 44 damage difference, it would be 2 rounds. That means that if you hit foe A, B and C in 3 rounds, you would have done more damage to A than a melee warrior, but less to B and C. If you focus on just A, and hit it thrice, you would have done a good 60-80 damage less than if you hit it with melee.

Since most people agree that melee is worse than missile, I must miss something, but the numbers are in melee's favor just because melee weapons have more levels and strength adds damage.

Yeah, GF2, which I like and enjoy very much, seems to suffer from several flaws that the other games don't have.

Ahem... No armor in the warrior mod. Didn't have the space\time to incorporate it and most importantly: test it.

2 weapons, 2 shields, several batons.

But the batons and the weapons give abilities so ...

As for melee without the mod: Since the melee weapons get crystals and parry is more effective up close and strength adds both to hit and damage instead of just to hit like dex, and increased strength allows the character to wear much heavier equipment, I would say that melee warriors are good compared to missile warriors.

As for Spells \ Shaping powers \ combat stats: All classes can opt for equipment that puts them at a respectable level in all those without having to buy skill ranks. An agent can for example opt for the equipment that gives +4 to +5 in shaping, which is enough to make most creations. Then, after making your creations, you put the equipment back to the chest in the place you've taken as your home and go adventuring.

Here is a player that has not used daze in 4 geneforge games and only uses mind magic to unlock doors. I've played Shaper, Lifecrafter and Warrior.

The Warrior in GF5 gets a blessing magic canister from Benhold late game, training in blessing magic for a ton of money for +2 points, captain's boots that give blessing magic somewhat early, the ethereal seal ring also somewhat early and I went for the lifecraft gauntlets (+2 blessing, +4 to creation stats).

Even with just training and one of the +2 blessing magic items (boots or gauntlets), you are at a nice 4 blessing magic while you need just 3 to have access to speed. Yes, I miss out on the essence blade stuff unless I put on my blessing gear. But

- I use chaotic spores in battle

- While nice spells they are not necessary; with protection, war-blessing and speed I am fine

- they take a huge chunk of essence so usually I forgo them unless I stand next to an essence pool

- They are zone-duration, hence yes, I can put on my blessing gear and cast them

As such I have not raised a single magic skill and I have no regrets about it. Would it be better to have magic? Yes. Is it necessary? Nah.

Nope, you have to cast it per character. So if you have 5 creations, you need to cast it x5, which means you will barely have time.