alhoon

24 minutes ago, Nim said:

Where did you get this idea from ?

From Zakary and the Barzites.

No, G3-5 knowledge doesn't matter here. At this point in time the council is notoriously slow to act, nevermind that we have an example of a full shaper gone missing and nothing happened (Sharon). Zak and Barzahl managed to abscond with lots of knowledge and serviles from Sucia and years later the council doesn't even know. At best they'll send another agent at some point to investigate.

In GF3-5 the council is also notoriously slow to act.

As in, there have been years of preparations and the Shapers haven't figured there was a rebellion brewing in GF3, the Rebellion was going strong for years taking up land and fortifying before the "Shaper armies came" in GF4 and they were beating back the Rebellion on all fronts and... in GF5 you have to win the war for the council yourself because they're so divided that you need to smack some sense to 3/7 remaining councilors for them to agree to attack Gazaki-Uss.

I mean, the Drakons have been there for some time, and the Shapers evidently had the forces to attack Gazaki Uss even if they lost part of their forces (Rockfall). If another councilor was with Astoria (we see another Guardian aside of Alwan in the Council), or if the council grabbed Rawal by the throat and told him "You know what? Unless you write right now the command for half your Shapers and Creations to march to Gazaki-Uss, you won't live the Citadel alive" they wouldn't even need my PC.

You're right about Sharon, but... Sharon wasn't sent to investigate the state of a colony. However, you're right that by the time someone asks "what happened with the investigation on colonies A, B, C, Drypeak, E and F?", gets a reply "we heard X from A-F, but Shanti never came back", then it goes all the way up, and council dispatches more people it could perhaps be 1-2 years.

Man, the Shapers have grown to be completely useless in administration and government. For all their talk of Empire, government-wise all the can do is bully untrained outsiders and serviles. It was well beyond their time to be toppled.

However, Sharon mentions that while it's not unheard of, it's not common for Shapers to go "overlooked". And Sharon was actively hiding; for all we know the council may have been aware she was missing but not where she has been holed up.

As such, yes, there's a chance Santi and an apprentice would never be looked up in the inefficient bureaucracy of the Shapers but from what I heard from Sharon and Santi, there's a greater probability that they will be looked for.

You really need to try to forget the later games while playing G2. That knowledge only hinders you.

I respectfully disagree.

Another thought: Sharon's disappearance (and she's not the only Shaper that went dark; Khyrik or how the Trakovite boss in GF4 was named, also deserted I think) helps explain those other minor rebellions (eliminated from history books according to later games) and how all these barred places came to be.  

I guess that half the times the Guardians have to deal with something serious, it's a Shaper that went rogue or deserted.

What about Shaper ranks?

I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor

Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply.

I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters.

There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper.

The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective.

I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers.

My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

Well, everyone in the valley knows it. The Awakened so far just seem to ... hope.

My character also knows that when an Agent and an apprentice show up and they don't return, things are going to get moving. Everyone in the Valley knew that the Shapers would come.

My character and Shanti are the first wave.

According to the "leave" ending, 12 Guardians are the second wave.

Anyway, it's not the "minor modifications" I was dreading. It was... the mentality change. I am at 5 canisters I think. But whether that affects my ending(s) or not, it's the fact that my character is now going crazy that bothers me. I went too far. Mind you, I didn't get a mild message of being kinda less empathic; it was a full on "you don't care what they think" message. My character hasn't become Tuldaric or Phariton but now doesn't care what "the people in the background noise" think.

I don't know what the pit of the bound is, but I'm not giving the Bazrites anything; I will try to not crush them all though, so that they will delay the Shapers when they arrive. Or, at least that was what I would do if I didn't know that the Shapers outnumber everything in the valley 20-to-1.

I hate I can't save people in this game. It's laid pretty thick that the Shapers will purge everything; they did it before and now there are armed and dangerous rebels on the mountains.

From what I've seen so far (which is not much, the loyalists and the various basic areas of the rebels) the Takers seem to have the best chance; they're holed up well and not worrying with "rogues" have a big bunch of creations. The Barzite army has to rely on improperly controlled creations and mad Shapers that can Shape but not control. Once they feel their breeding pits they will have  a big struggle in their hands to control all those things the moment they get them away from the torture-pylons. It is pretty evident by the Alphas and Glaahks made away from their cities. They will be busy even without the Shapers. For all their might, if Litalia et co didn't arrive for a year or two, the Barzites would have imploded by themselves.

Wow, being indecisive between Takers and Awakened helped me with Phariton! He seems to be working on wannabe Unbound. A noble task. He could have stopped Litalia et co if he wasn't working alone.
The quest is hilarious: He asks anything from puresteel to... stealing a cauldron from a kitchen or something.
As for his equipment, he's practically asking me to steal it.

Perhaps I'd have considered "joining" Phariton (I see him as "Unaligned rebel boss" like the "Unaligned Shaper boss" in that fort)... if it wasn't the "Who wouldn't use canisters?! They show the truth! To use a canister is to see deep in the core of the Universe!". Suuure buddy. That is what they do.
He seems worse than Jared (GF4) when it comes to canister addiction.
And what a great loot he has thrown around! Artifact materials, very nice weapons, it's like Christmas.

I also found a conduit shard, that some people have been asking for. I remember the Barzites made a demon that stole it but I'm not giving it to them. However, I think others are asking for it. For the life of me I can't remember who though.

Back to Medab... Got a message that people look at me curiously now and I don't give a damn. I used too many canisters! Curse you Phariton with all those level-worth canisters lying around.
A raise in endurance: 6skill points. A raise in intelligence: 9 skill points. I was planning to raise both. Those two canisters were -3 levels worth- of skill points. I caved in. I admit it. I wanted a piece of the "universe core" that Phariton was talking about. The part about me saving 3 levels worth of skills.
And that "part of universe core" was the key that unlocked the gates of madness. I'm a Tuldaric-wannabe now. Started with good intentions, dreams to help the Serviles. And lost my sanity on the way.

ROAD TO PHARITON:
 After pacifying all the pylons, I've spent over 30 minutes combing the place to find the lever or something that would allow me to continue. I was about to give up...
I like the graphics mod but it makes the levers hard to see. And the lever being behind a corner and a corner and not showing unless I stood 2 squares fro it didn't help.

And then... I met a "bloated" Servile made more or less as a walking living tool with a strange stomach. Revulsion aside, I'm not sure these creatures are treated badly but I certainly look down on making them idiot savants on purpose. Yes, Shaping them as technicians instead of training them is faster, but it leaves them... damaged.
This has a feeling of "stepford wives" but with bloated stomach serviles. I thin they may carry worms or some other kind of nastiness there.
I don't like this place even though the serviles seem treated OK, unlike Monarch's serviles. But I'm not sure these serviles were given enough mental faculties to develop a personality.
I think this is one of the not-that-many times in GF series that I would like the option to reShape Creations; boost the intelligence of these serviles, even if it means "pushing aside" some of the technical specifications so that a personality can develop. Turning them to people, for lack of better word.

I am told that going further would cause them to attack me. I don't want to have to kill them. I just want to be able to give them personality. And if then, after developing a self-protection instict they attack me, then I will feel OK killing them. Now it just seems wrong.
I'll try to find a mechanics\stealth way to that guy.

Also: Do the followers talk? I think you told me they don't. I have a servile with me, a taker, Heust Blade. I wish he would give me some input, as a servile, on how to deal with these creatures.

And then:
Canisters... intelligence (always useful) and endurance (I was low).
OK, here's 2 canisters more for me. I think I am at 4... I plan to become Tulda-forged at some point. Let's see what happens now.

Phariton has used 16 that I counted. And if there's sixteen broken canisters in his bizarre room of temptation (seriously, canisters that give intel?!) we can safely assume the message here is "He's used a ton".

I found an Alpha that "is not rogue" but still doesn't obey Phariton cause Phariton didn't take control of his own creation. I was able to control it cause I'm awesome and I haven't bathed in canisters.
It's a lvl 20 alpha (i.e. same level as my lowest level Vlish), so exchanging a Vlish for Hryk was not viable. And a free Hryk attacked me.
In any case, in GF4-5 Battle Alphas were baaarely able to talk. The Alphas here seem smarter.

Isn't there an option to release it as is? It has been some time since I ran the whole "let's do every atrocity possible!" gameplay and I have tried to forget. I am trying to forget...  (Ofcourse, I'm joking. I'm not judging you friend).

I can, in PM.

PS. You have to be lifecrafter or Shaper for this quest.

Yeap, that kind of thing is explicitly forbidden in GF3-5.

Oh... I certainly hope not, cause I've dragged both of you to loooong discussions about lore. I have surmised that your passion is the numbers and balance, based on the tons of work on that front you've made. Mine is... modding. While I certainly have an interest in lore for lore itself, my recent increased interest in lore comes from modding since the lore affects modding. And while I think this and that for what I could put in a mod or not, certain questions, academically interesting do pop into mind.

And I still thank you for Nora, cause I haven't missed just her, but a bunch of Guardians sitting in the mud (?) and most importantly an awesome shield that I use and tons of money.

I am indeed not the person most versed in lore. There are parts in GF4 and GF5 that I have also missed. As I have said once before: I have never met an Eyebeast and I am sure there are some in GF4-5, games I've finished.

Hence... these question threads!

And, ahem... my enthusiasm for the lore is not as great as yours or Slarty's. You seem to know by heart most of the lore when I struggle to remember some parts.

To my defense, I have stated a couple of times already that I don't make "declarations" about whether it's a mistake or not, I am just voicing an opinion and my own opinion is developing with your input. Hence, the "Wait, there are creations that can heal. If Shapers allow that, then they may allow healing loyalists especially in the less-conventional periphery."  

I put the questions in the forums because you are skeptical. The " it's also very plausible..." part is why this whole thread exists. If I wanted to hear an echo of my own voice, I'd talk to a corner.  

I hope that you all take my comments as not a challenge or stubbornness but as discussion.

Other magic sects: Yeap, I've met a school in GF3. That school's terror on a mere novice pushed me from "I will have to join the Shapers this time... " to "I am not sure which side I'll take".

The dude with the book is doing research on non-Shaping magic, which GF2 tells me it's allowed (despite the Shapers being pro-regulations in magic). I don't want to check the scripts though, cause I haven't done much in that zone. It's a person name Ciphar, in the "Western Mines" and has a book on spells.

Author's license: Frankly, it doesn't bother me. If it works for the story, so much the better. I don't consider it a fault to say "The story in my head > details in the canon I wrote 5 years ago". I certainly don't consider it a mess up. OK, there's indeed another continent not named Terrestia mentioned in GF3 that disappears from canon. I don't care at all. I don't consider it a problem, especially since the NPCs and stories I encounter in the games are so engaging. I would prefer a bit more lore and frankly, descriptions of important people* but the story is engaging despite some elements that don't align.

*Do we even know if Litalia was blond? Tall? Short? I think we get a barebones description on Greta and Miranda that leads me to assume the woman in the intro of GF4 is Miranda, but again, it has been a loooong time.

I remembered further evidence that Shapers at least, don't consider the "default" healing as Shaping:

There are several creations that can heal other creations. Unless I'm mistaken, Shapers also make use of these, it's not just the rebels.

I was talking about the GF2 parts that I've seen and the GF3-5 parts that I've seen which contradict them.

Also, I didn't really "Declare" anything even about games I've played. I was sure to include "in my opinion" often. I said that I don't necessarily disagree with the viewpoints you and Kian present, but I'm not 100% sure and just making discussion.

So... I didn't declare anything, nor I professed knowledge.

Yeap, only the author can now for sure. All of us can just theorize.

I don't necessarily disagree with either you or Slarty.

I'm just saying that it seems possible it is an oversight. Sure, we can assume that the Shapers were far more lax before Drypeak in the control of magic. But is there any direct confirmation? Things indicate otherwise. The Shapers after Drypeak were caught unprepared when the Rebellion started. The Shaper school I found in GF3 living in fear of a Shaper novice doesn't mention that things changed. of course, we can assume that the school was built under the "new order" of things with Shapers becoming more secretive.

There are explanations and ways to rationalize this. First and foremost: GF2 says X and GF3-5 say Y and a "significant" amount of time passed between GF2 and GF3-5. It's not irrational to say "things changed". And more.

However, there are several contradictions within the games and as far as I've been in GF2, within the game itself. So it could be a retcon (the author changing his own view of the world as time passed) or an oversight (the author saying "let's give the player that reward even if that doesn't fit the lore very well").  

As far as healing goes, I would agree that the general feel is that healing is "regulated" magic that Shapers find themselves better at and outsiders cannot usually recreate except through alchemy.

PS the text about the spellbook is clear that the guy is doing research by himself, calling this allowed since it's not Shaping.

Mod is out again for open beta. Anyone interested to give comments, is welcome.

3 hours ago, Caesuran Section said:

Which is not to say you're wrong about that, at least not most of the time; but you are not in any position to judge what is and is not a retcon.

The game's introduction  even in GF2 does state that the Shapers are very secretive, so the part of the later games that describes them as closing down schools of magic with a word and limiting access to all kinds of magic seems to fit the intro texts better. Hence, I consider the teaching of healing magic (that can be considered Shaping or part-Shaping) to a menian laborer an oversight to give a reward to the player, not a retcon. And this oversight is in GF2, that has a several contradictions about staff the same game says.

And if I may, who is in a position to judge what is an oversight and what is a retcon? The games were written many years ago.

In my opinion, it's not a retcon; it's an oversight. GF2 introduction goes with the usual mantra, that the Shapers are the most secretive of mages. In my opinion, the most secretive order wouldn't teach a menial laborer spells that can be considered Shaping. And the author has the tendency to contradict himself or overlook "details".

Some help cause this is driving me crazy.

This is what I see in the new zone I added once I get in. I also add the image in the spoilers. I used a fresh install of GF5 (Steam version, I have a PC, windows 10) with the mod to make sure there's no redundant stuff.

It works perfectly for me. But Gamerman's game says "not enough space to put party" and closes. Do you think the above actually needs more space? Or it could be something else?

Per his permission, these are his specifications:

Macbook Pro, using the latest game version from the Spiderweb Software website.

Meh, my links are becoming dead too.

Can someone upload it somewhere else? Somewhere permanent?

Also: TheKian: could you do the same with the binaries for GF4? GF5 and GF4 zones are of the same size. If you have a program that slices them that is, I'm not asking to just go and start chopping the file yourself.

6 minutes ago, Caesuran Section said:

Alchemists with no shaper training can certainly create healing items.  There's no reason why Healing Craft can't be a combination of shaping plus other techniques.  It is after all a "craft."

 

And for that matter, there's no reason why a healing spell can't be magic and shaping at the same time.  I don't think the boundary is clear-cut.  After all, most magic spells draw on essence just like shaping a creation does.

 

But I suspect G1 describes healing craft somewhere in-game, and that will tell you exactly what you're looking for.

 

Interesting approach. I thought about the alchemists, but creating healing pods etc seems to be a different sort of magic than actual healing.

The game very clearly (and properly IMO) depicts Shaping as magic. In most of the game openings it describes Shapers as having the magic to create life. So, all Shaping is a form of magic. The question should be better phrased as: Do Shapers themselves consider Shaping spells part of Shaping?

Ahh... GF2 is kinda sloppy with this kind of thing. Sure, it is in canon, but it kinda goes against much of the established game lore. It was probably a quick way to give the PC something valuable like "cure affliction", so I wouldn't put much faith in this. Shapers were controlling of the magic after all, so teaching even firebolt to a non-licensed person would be controversial. GF2 kinda states and then later contradicts that too, as you find a book an outsider has in his pursuit to learn magic, which the text says is considered legal.

  The Astoria smith that works essence to make Shaped blades says that his work could be considered Shaping and he may find himself in big trouble.

Keep in mind that the various mages in the games, at least to my knowledge cannot heal themselves. It is very direct that healing is Shaping. Every instance I recall of someone healing you, it's Shaping. Again, we get a good glimpse when you have the control tool removed: the text describes the person removing it as "Shaping" the wound closed.

In any case, if it's not covered by the lore, what do you guys think? I play these games for 2-3 years.

Actually, I think it's mentioned or hinted-at in GF3. Of course, the inferior designs there may be because of less skill or... I may well remember wrong.

Legality of grafting limbs:

Shaping humans is illegal, but healing humans with Shaping is not. So Shaping a new leg for a soldier that lost his leg could be seen as a step above healing a heavily fragmented bone and repairing damaged tissue. You're effectively restoring mobility to a person that lost it, curing him. You're not adding anything like the ability to throw firebolts or something.

Servant minds: Interesting... are the ones I haven't seen in Sucia traditional according to the player's insight? I.e. those are the default ones? Are they different (but more explained) than the GF2-5 ones?

Kyshaaks: Duh, I can't believe I missed that. Too much familiarity with the screens made me ignore them. There's one for wingbolts too in GF4. They are artila-based.

Rots are allowed for Shapers in GF4 from what I see. The Shapers copied them from the Rebellion although they do have "moderate" rogue tendencies.

Limbs-being-rejected: Well, I am not sure that this would be always the case on magically-grafted tissue. A wound that's closed by Shaper magic generates tissue. When a very skilled Shaper removes the control tool from your heart, they regenerate the tissue.

And although many recipients of the control tool died, some survived without rejecting it. And that's not just a graft, that's a tentacle fused to one's heart...

On ‎28‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:26 AM, Samcast said:

 while the other one gives you access to all creations. 

 

What does this mean?

That you start with all creations known and enough Shaping knowledge to Shape them? Including the advanced versions?