alhoon

Meh, my links are becoming dead too.

Can someone upload it somewhere else? Somewhere permanent?

Also: TheKian: could you do the same with the binaries for GF4? GF5 and GF4 zones are of the same size. If you have a program that slices them that is, I'm not asking to just go and start chopping the file yourself.

6 minutes ago, Caesuran Section said:

Alchemists with no shaper training can certainly create healing items.  There's no reason why Healing Craft can't be a combination of shaping plus other techniques.  It is after all a "craft."

 

And for that matter, there's no reason why a healing spell can't be magic and shaping at the same time.  I don't think the boundary is clear-cut.  After all, most magic spells draw on essence just like shaping a creation does.

 

But I suspect G1 describes healing craft somewhere in-game, and that will tell you exactly what you're looking for.

 

Interesting approach. I thought about the alchemists, but creating healing pods etc seems to be a different sort of magic than actual healing.

The game very clearly (and properly IMO) depicts Shaping as magic. In most of the game openings it describes Shapers as having the magic to create life. So, all Shaping is a form of magic. The question should be better phrased as: Do Shapers themselves consider Shaping spells part of Shaping?

Ahh... GF2 is kinda sloppy with this kind of thing. Sure, it is in canon, but it kinda goes against much of the established game lore. It was probably a quick way to give the PC something valuable like "cure affliction", so I wouldn't put much faith in this. Shapers were controlling of the magic after all, so teaching even firebolt to a non-licensed person would be controversial. GF2 kinda states and then later contradicts that too, as you find a book an outsider has in his pursuit to learn magic, which the text says is considered legal.

  The Astoria smith that works essence to make Shaped blades says that his work could be considered Shaping and he may find himself in big trouble.

Keep in mind that the various mages in the games, at least to my knowledge cannot heal themselves. It is very direct that healing is Shaping. Every instance I recall of someone healing you, it's Shaping. Again, we get a good glimpse when you have the control tool removed: the text describes the person removing it as "Shaping" the wound closed.

In any case, if it's not covered by the lore, what do you guys think? I play these games for 2-3 years.

Actually, I think it's mentioned or hinted-at in GF3. Of course, the inferior designs there may be because of less skill or... I may well remember wrong.

Legality of grafting limbs:

Shaping humans is illegal, but healing humans with Shaping is not. So Shaping a new leg for a soldier that lost his leg could be seen as a step above healing a heavily fragmented bone and repairing damaged tissue. You're effectively restoring mobility to a person that lost it, curing him. You're not adding anything like the ability to throw firebolts or something.

Servant minds: Interesting... are the ones I haven't seen in Sucia traditional according to the player's insight? I.e. those are the default ones? Are they different (but more explained) than the GF2-5 ones?

Kyshaaks: Duh, I can't believe I missed that. Too much familiarity with the screens made me ignore them. There's one for wingbolts too in GF4. They are artila-based.

Rots are allowed for Shapers in GF4 from what I see. The Shapers copied them from the Rebellion although they do have "moderate" rogue tendencies.

Limbs-being-rejected: Well, I am not sure that this would be always the case on magically-grafted tissue. A wound that's closed by Shaper magic generates tissue. When a very skilled Shaper removes the control tool from your heart, they regenerate the tissue.

And although many recipients of the control tool died, some survived without rejecting it. And that's not just a graft, that's a tentacle fused to one's heart...

On ‎28‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:26 AM, Samcast said:

 while the other one gives you access to all creations. 

 

What does this mean?

That you start with all creations known and enough Shaping knowledge to Shape them? Including the advanced versions?

Instead of opening a new thread any time I wonder about something in the Geneforge world, I decided to open a thread to throw most of the "not-that-important" questions or remarks in.

I will start with:

Can Shapers replace severed legs and arms? Can they cure blindness? I mean, they can actually create a whole new creature and change people (even if it's not allowed). But can they create (and attach) missing body parts? I'm 90% sure they can Shape a -new- functioning pair of eyes on the top of one's blind eyes (since the Barzites shape bulging muscles on their Guardians and turn them to hulking brutes) but what about a legal procedure that wouldn't turn a blind person to a multi-eyed freak?

I will continue with:

Kyshaaks, Wingbolts, Wartralls. They're introduced in GF4 and aside of a line or two here and there, we get little info on them. Sure, a war trall is a bigger Alpha that throws rocks. A Kyshaak is... ? what? Wingbolts are probably modified Vlish (similar to Gazers) but is there any confirmation on that?

Exlpoding Kyshaaks make me think they are a powered up version of the Roamer.

EDIT: GF5 screens and GF4 screens say that Kyshaaks come from reptiles and Fyoras and Wingbolts from Artillas.

And another one:

Servant minds. Fascinating pieces of Shaping. Who needs a computer when you can Shape one? OK, the Shapers haven't shaped creations that can mass produce items like a factory could, so no industrial revolution. But the servant minds could probably be as good as the computers of the 60s or something in making calculations and storing data. And they would present a similar risk if competing Shapers (I'm looking at you Rawal) sent an Agent lackey to interrogate and steal data from them.

In any case, mainframes that need nutrients instead of power to work aside...

Servant minds are occasionally given the task to control simple creations, I think. The servant mind in the school of GF3 has some control over the turrets and many servant minds control doors. A few are in control of other defenses, even a few creations. Yet, Alwan's control cores with servant minds directing creations in battle, are controversial and near-illegal I believe. So there's a line somewhere but it is blurry.

The question here is "What's the (blurry) line on what a Servant mind can and cannot control legally?"

EDIT:

What about Shaper ranks?

I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor

Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply.

I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters.

There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper.

The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective.

I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers.

My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

EDIT2: Living tools.

How non-Shapers use them? I bet that's somewhere in GF1.

For Batons, we know that when their tail is pressed, they shoot a thorn. But living tools do more complicated jobs than "fire!" They have to twist their tentacles in specific ways etc. A Shaper could just control the tool and tell it what to do, direct it on what to do. An outsider?  

EDIT3: Disruption damage and wands.

Do Gazers even have that luck bonus? Cause they're also said to have +20 intelligence in order to NOT run out of energy...

And the reason I'' stop at magic 8 is because of the soft cap: I would hate to waste 7 or so skill points to NOT get anything out of it. So I was thinking to boost it to 10-11 with items.

Yeah, initiative frankly doesn't concern me. I don't consider it crucial. Sure, it's nice, but not a dealmaker. (For me, I realize some of you will disagree)

Do Rots still cause acid (or poison, I forget; very rarely used them) on hit? Cause if they do and they deal a lot of damage with physicals, I may go for them. The Drakon you present still seems underwhelming.

But frankly, I'll probably go for Gazers cause I like them and Rots because they add variety to my attack routine; little to do with damage and actual power.

I am playing on easy; sure, not strategically and avoiding parts I find non-enjoyable, but still I believe I can do everything with 1 gazer, 1 more tier 4 and 4 high level Vlish.

Nice!

If I may ask, the recipes work similar to my warrior mod, you have to find them for the option to come up, or, similar to Gamerman's mod, you just need to find them to figure the items needed etc and if you find them (or if they're in the spoilers or somewhere else) you can have the items crafted as soon as you show up?

Leaving all those aside for a moment, unless Drakons are much higher level than the rest, the strength bonus of the Rot and the ability to spam kill at high levels of the Gazers seems to place them above Drakons as far as player creations go.

Also, don't take this wrong but similar to the advice you give me on my posting habbits, I also have a suggestion.

Perhaps you should try to make your posts seem less aggressive. TheKian did some tests that you don't find useful but instead leading to wrong conclusions.

However, he did them on his own free time. I understand your frustration, but the above post does seem too accusatory, at least to me. He was trying to help, and probably didn't remember that enemy levels may change. It's not the end of the world.

Apologies... I'll be adding a bit more content. It will be ready in the weekend, at the latest.

3 hours ago, TheKian said:

Experimentally, (for example, in Gazak-Uss, or with my own creations), the drakon always attacks first (again, regardless of whether it is my creation or an enemy), followed by the rothgroth and then gazer.

 

I don't know about absurd strength for rotghroths, but they do hit ridiculously hard (~240 per swing, which is a lot in G2).

 

 

Also, Slarty, from the Geneforge 2 scenario file...

Gazers: //cr_statistic 1 = 20;     cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     cr_statistic 22 = 10; (+25 int, +3 parry, +10 luck, other stats commented out)

Drakons: //cr_statistic 0 = 22;     //cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 6 = 8;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     //cr_statistic 22 = 10;  (+8 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)
Rotghroths: cr_statistic 0 = 22;     cr_statistic 1 = 22;     cr_statistic 6 = 6;     cr_statistic 7 = 3; (+22 str, +22 dex, +6 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)

 

It's obvious immediately that the Drakon has superior quick action to the rotghroth. However, the rotghroth also happens to have an insane level of base dexterity. The question here is (also, luck isn't likely to have as significant an impact on initiative as quick action) what exactly is the base dexterity of the Drakon. It would seem to theoretically be 1, since it imports the base creature. However, since, experimentally, the drakon does have superior initiative to the rotghroth, its base dexterity must be fairly close.

Dex usually is level/2

Ahh... the new zone is a major part of the mod. Have you managed to see it?

Check my edit in the previous post... And keep a mind open for even more allies in the final battle.

You don't get just two party members. You can go with full soldiers.

If they are indeed close to war-trall and not like half a wartrall, I need to tone them down... Except if you mean after you level them up they come close to a freshly minted war-trall.

Kayar's Spire if you get your allies and tell your lieutenants to weaken the base should be easy to the point of those non-party soldiers being redundant. Also keep in mind, the power of the defenders scales partially with party size and partially with your own power (not just level; your combat abilities).

As a note, she's not a sorceress, she's an incantatrix. She can't shape, hasn't used canisters and hasn't use the geneforge.

As for the Spire (while the other option is still viable) I was going for the feeling "The Rebellion is at your door and we will trash and crash the place"

Before you go to Endgame:

Have you finished the questline of the Fort? There's a huge reward in the end if you're loyal to Greta. Including of course,

Also... the mod ends in the endgame.  While I boosted the Drakons there, you should have no problem steamrolling them.

And research notes and shaper equipment also increase the Combat effectiveness if given at the right time to the right NPC.

Also: doing a specific quest and then giving Shaper equipment and notes to the right NPC, will lead to your character being able to Shape more powerful creations while at the base.

Ohhh... right.

In Drypeak mines? I don't remember that, except veeery foggily.

Then why have a servile act as a servant mind? Strange.

I'm not reading the spoiler since I haven't found the way to open the $%#^! gate yet. Probably have missed a lever somewhere in that huge maze.

I do give my vlish 2 intelligence, like all my creations. Of course, by now all my creations are Vlish and a Cryora.

Here's another perhaps needlessly long post... It has some observations of mine about the story.

I went to the Crystal mines near the Awakened. I found a Spawner (as expected) but there was no text about it.
After several in-and-out to heal, I found a Taker Drayk that is completely unharmed by the magic of the place that causes me to evacuate every minute or so.
After calling me a fool and telling me to go see Syros in Zhass-Uss so that he can toy with me, it told me he doesn't know why it is unharmed by the air and told me it placed the Spawner here to attack the Awakened.

Why difference of opinion on what to do once the Shapers come is a reason for war is beyond me. The Takers think (rightly) that the Awakened will be attacked by the Shapers. So... why start a war with them? If they dislike them as much as the Shapers (strange in itself), why waste effort to attack them? The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.
For all I've found the different factions fascinating, I still haven't figured out why their differences had to lead to war? OK, Barzites were obviously horrendous. But Takers and Awakened? I can understand animosity but spending resources to put up monsters to kill the serviles cause they have a different view on the Shapers?
I guess that one goes back to GF1...

Following that, a tough decision (that was kinda made for me).
In a place called Darian's refuge, there's a servile that misses the oppressive hand of the Barzites. He is sad and wants to spend his life as a self-aware living baton.

But it's his choice. Freedom kinda comes with the freedom to choose what I don't like.

I was at an impasse: Should I respect his choice and lead him back to the evilest faction (that I plan to go full-Litalia on later), respecting his choice?
Should I leave him there, "free" but unhappy not respecting his choice? But alive since I will kill the Barzites anyway?
And then he said something that clearly showed me the path: He told me that my party is full so I would have to get rid of a vlish.
Nooooope.
Theeeere you stay buddy. Your choice is respectable, but I will not handicap myself so you can return to your master.

Lack of Servant minds:
I saw a servile in the way to Phariton (which I am told is a mad Shaper, and people the Barzites are calling mad are bound to be interesting). That servile is frankly a servant mind with legs.
Haven't seen any servant minds in GF2.
As a note, I have seen a great many pylons shooting magic at me. With 7 creations that become active the moment I go to battle mode, this place is a nightmare.

Learned Darian
That's a woman that said things to the Shaper that visited Sucia hoping it would lead to less suffering for the Serviles, and she acknowledges it didn't. She thinks this time it may lead to less suffering.
She doesn't know that the world will burn, but realizes it is very possible: "Power to remake the world, or burn it". It will be both Darian; remake the world from the ashes of burned cities. And she's right about the Takers; they are correct on their view that Shapers would not accept free creations without being crushed and that their power will prove catastrophically dangerous.
Heartbreaking insight.

This game makes me sad...

EDIT:

For those that didn't make the connection... my avatar photo is now the Takers flag (I will still probably ally with the Awakened, but that's a very nice, rebel-ly flag).

Thankfully it was not that. By fixing a bug TheKian has found, I introduced another. It has been fixed.

However, what you say is of great interest since I'll start designing zones for my total conversion mod, and I was planning to cram a ton of things near the entrance.

Could you please elaborate a bit more? What do you mean "not enough room" near the zone entrance? Creations? Buildings? Items?

A LOT of spelling mistakes?

The Mera Aegis is a minor artifact that I put there because, frankly, at about that level I needed more spellcraft so my blessings would hold for some time.

Gazers have... luck bonus? LoL. That's a new saying then. "That guy won the lottery. He has a Gazer's luck!" and then I'll bask on the weird looks of people not understanding what I say.