alhoon

Yeap, only the author can now for sure. All of us can just theorize.

I don't necessarily disagree with either you or Slarty.

I'm just saying that it seems possible it is an oversight. Sure, we can assume that the Shapers were far more lax before Drypeak in the control of magic. But is there any direct confirmation? Things indicate otherwise. The Shapers after Drypeak were caught unprepared when the Rebellion started. The Shaper school I found in GF3 living in fear of a Shaper novice doesn't mention that things changed. of course, we can assume that the school was built under the "new order" of things with Shapers becoming more secretive.

There are explanations and ways to rationalize this. First and foremost: GF2 says X and GF3-5 say Y and a "significant" amount of time passed between GF2 and GF3-5. It's not irrational to say "things changed". And more.

However, there are several contradictions within the games and as far as I've been in GF2, within the game itself. So it could be a retcon (the author changing his own view of the world as time passed) or an oversight (the author saying "let's give the player that reward even if that doesn't fit the lore very well").  

As far as healing goes, I would agree that the general feel is that healing is "regulated" magic that Shapers find themselves better at and outsiders cannot usually recreate except through alchemy.

PS the text about the spellbook is clear that the guy is doing research by himself, calling this allowed since it's not Shaping.

Mod is out again for open beta. Anyone interested to give comments, is welcome.

3 hours ago, Caesuran Section said:

Which is not to say you're wrong about that, at least not most of the time; but you are not in any position to judge what is and is not a retcon.

The game's introduction  even in GF2 does state that the Shapers are very secretive, so the part of the later games that describes them as closing down schools of magic with a word and limiting access to all kinds of magic seems to fit the intro texts better. Hence, I consider the teaching of healing magic (that can be considered Shaping or part-Shaping) to a menian laborer an oversight to give a reward to the player, not a retcon. And this oversight is in GF2, that has a several contradictions about staff the same game says.

And if I may, who is in a position to judge what is an oversight and what is a retcon? The games were written many years ago.

In my opinion, it's not a retcon; it's an oversight. GF2 introduction goes with the usual mantra, that the Shapers are the most secretive of mages. In my opinion, the most secretive order wouldn't teach a menial laborer spells that can be considered Shaping. And the author has the tendency to contradict himself or overlook "details".

Some help cause this is driving me crazy.

This is what I see in the new zone I added once I get in. I also add the image in the spoilers. I used a fresh install of GF5 (Steam version, I have a PC, windows 10) with the mod to make sure there's no redundant stuff.

It works perfectly for me. But Gamerman's game says "not enough space to put party" and closes. Do you think the above actually needs more space? Or it could be something else?

Per his permission, these are his specifications:

Macbook Pro, using the latest game version from the Spiderweb Software website.

Meh, my links are becoming dead too.

Can someone upload it somewhere else? Somewhere permanent?

Also: TheKian: could you do the same with the binaries for GF4? GF5 and GF4 zones are of the same size. If you have a program that slices them that is, I'm not asking to just go and start chopping the file yourself.

6 minutes ago, Caesuran Section said:

Alchemists with no shaper training can certainly create healing items.  There's no reason why Healing Craft can't be a combination of shaping plus other techniques.  It is after all a "craft."

 

And for that matter, there's no reason why a healing spell can't be magic and shaping at the same time.  I don't think the boundary is clear-cut.  After all, most magic spells draw on essence just like shaping a creation does.

 

But I suspect G1 describes healing craft somewhere in-game, and that will tell you exactly what you're looking for.

 

Interesting approach. I thought about the alchemists, but creating healing pods etc seems to be a different sort of magic than actual healing.

The game very clearly (and properly IMO) depicts Shaping as magic. In most of the game openings it describes Shapers as having the magic to create life. So, all Shaping is a form of magic. The question should be better phrased as: Do Shapers themselves consider Shaping spells part of Shaping?

Ahh... GF2 is kinda sloppy with this kind of thing. Sure, it is in canon, but it kinda goes against much of the established game lore. It was probably a quick way to give the PC something valuable like "cure affliction", so I wouldn't put much faith in this. Shapers were controlling of the magic after all, so teaching even firebolt to a non-licensed person would be controversial. GF2 kinda states and then later contradicts that too, as you find a book an outsider has in his pursuit to learn magic, which the text says is considered legal.

  The Astoria smith that works essence to make Shaped blades says that his work could be considered Shaping and he may find himself in big trouble.

Keep in mind that the various mages in the games, at least to my knowledge cannot heal themselves. It is very direct that healing is Shaping. Every instance I recall of someone healing you, it's Shaping. Again, we get a good glimpse when you have the control tool removed: the text describes the person removing it as "Shaping" the wound closed.

In any case, if it's not covered by the lore, what do you guys think? I play these games for 2-3 years.

Actually, I think it's mentioned or hinted-at in GF3. Of course, the inferior designs there may be because of less skill or... I may well remember wrong.

Legality of grafting limbs:

Shaping humans is illegal, but healing humans with Shaping is not. So Shaping a new leg for a soldier that lost his leg could be seen as a step above healing a heavily fragmented bone and repairing damaged tissue. You're effectively restoring mobility to a person that lost it, curing him. You're not adding anything like the ability to throw firebolts or something.

Servant minds: Interesting... are the ones I haven't seen in Sucia traditional according to the player's insight? I.e. those are the default ones? Are they different (but more explained) than the GF2-5 ones?

Kyshaaks: Duh, I can't believe I missed that. Too much familiarity with the screens made me ignore them. There's one for wingbolts too in GF4. They are artila-based.

Rots are allowed for Shapers in GF4 from what I see. The Shapers copied them from the Rebellion although they do have "moderate" rogue tendencies.

Limbs-being-rejected: Well, I am not sure that this would be always the case on magically-grafted tissue. A wound that's closed by Shaper magic generates tissue. When a very skilled Shaper removes the control tool from your heart, they regenerate the tissue.

And although many recipients of the control tool died, some survived without rejecting it. And that's not just a graft, that's a tentacle fused to one's heart...

On ‎28‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:26 AM, Samcast said:

 while the other one gives you access to all creations. 

 

What does this mean?

That you start with all creations known and enough Shaping knowledge to Shape them? Including the advanced versions?

Instead of opening a new thread any time I wonder about something in the Geneforge world, I decided to open a thread to throw most of the "not-that-important" questions or remarks in.

I will start with:

Can Shapers replace severed legs and arms? Can they cure blindness? I mean, they can actually create a whole new creature and change people (even if it's not allowed). But can they create (and attach) missing body parts? I'm 90% sure they can Shape a -new- functioning pair of eyes on the top of one's blind eyes (since the Barzites shape bulging muscles on their Guardians and turn them to hulking brutes) but what about a legal procedure that wouldn't turn a blind person to a multi-eyed freak?

I will continue with:

Kyshaaks, Wingbolts, Wartralls. They're introduced in GF4 and aside of a line or two here and there, we get little info on them. Sure, a war trall is a bigger Alpha that throws rocks. A Kyshaak is... ? what? Wingbolts are probably modified Vlish (similar to Gazers) but is there any confirmation on that?

Exlpoding Kyshaaks make me think they are a powered up version of the Roamer.

EDIT: GF5 screens and GF4 screens say that Kyshaaks come from reptiles and Fyoras and Wingbolts from Artillas.

And another one:

Servant minds. Fascinating pieces of Shaping. Who needs a computer when you can Shape one? OK, the Shapers haven't shaped creations that can mass produce items like a factory could, so no industrial revolution. But the servant minds could probably be as good as the computers of the 60s or something in making calculations and storing data. And they would present a similar risk if competing Shapers (I'm looking at you Rawal) sent an Agent lackey to interrogate and steal data from them.

In any case, mainframes that need nutrients instead of power to work aside...

Servant minds are occasionally given the task to control simple creations, I think. The servant mind in the school of GF3 has some control over the turrets and many servant minds control doors. A few are in control of other defenses, even a few creations. Yet, Alwan's control cores with servant minds directing creations in battle, are controversial and near-illegal I believe. So there's a line somewhere but it is blurry.

The question here is "What's the (blurry) line on what a Servant mind can and cannot control legally?"

EDIT:

What about Shaper ranks?

I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor

Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply.

I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters.

There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper.

The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective.

I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers.

My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

EDIT2: Living tools.

How non-Shapers use them? I bet that's somewhere in GF1.

For Batons, we know that when their tail is pressed, they shoot a thorn. But living tools do more complicated jobs than "fire!" They have to twist their tentacles in specific ways etc. A Shaper could just control the tool and tell it what to do, direct it on what to do. An outsider?  

EDIT3: Disruption damage and wands.

Do Gazers even have that luck bonus? Cause they're also said to have +20 intelligence in order to NOT run out of energy...

And the reason I'' stop at magic 8 is because of the soft cap: I would hate to waste 7 or so skill points to NOT get anything out of it. So I was thinking to boost it to 10-11 with items.

Yeah, initiative frankly doesn't concern me. I don't consider it crucial. Sure, it's nice, but not a dealmaker. (For me, I realize some of you will disagree)

Do Rots still cause acid (or poison, I forget; very rarely used them) on hit? Cause if they do and they deal a lot of damage with physicals, I may go for them. The Drakon you present still seems underwhelming.

But frankly, I'll probably go for Gazers cause I like them and Rots because they add variety to my attack routine; little to do with damage and actual power.

I am playing on easy; sure, not strategically and avoiding parts I find non-enjoyable, but still I believe I can do everything with 1 gazer, 1 more tier 4 and 4 high level Vlish.

Nice!

If I may ask, the recipes work similar to my warrior mod, you have to find them for the option to come up, or, similar to Gamerman's mod, you just need to find them to figure the items needed etc and if you find them (or if they're in the spoilers or somewhere else) you can have the items crafted as soon as you show up?

Leaving all those aside for a moment, unless Drakons are much higher level than the rest, the strength bonus of the Rot and the ability to spam kill at high levels of the Gazers seems to place them above Drakons as far as player creations go.

Also, don't take this wrong but similar to the advice you give me on my posting habbits, I also have a suggestion.

Perhaps you should try to make your posts seem less aggressive. TheKian did some tests that you don't find useful but instead leading to wrong conclusions.

However, he did them on his own free time. I understand your frustration, but the above post does seem too accusatory, at least to me. He was trying to help, and probably didn't remember that enemy levels may change. It's not the end of the world.

Apologies... I'll be adding a bit more content. It will be ready in the weekend, at the latest.

3 hours ago, TheKian said:

Experimentally, (for example, in Gazak-Uss, or with my own creations), the drakon always attacks first (again, regardless of whether it is my creation or an enemy), followed by the rothgroth and then gazer.

 

I don't know about absurd strength for rotghroths, but they do hit ridiculously hard (~240 per swing, which is a lot in G2).

 

 

Also, Slarty, from the Geneforge 2 scenario file...

Gazers: //cr_statistic 1 = 20;     cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     cr_statistic 22 = 10; (+25 int, +3 parry, +10 luck, other stats commented out)

Drakons: //cr_statistic 0 = 22;     //cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 6 = 8;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     //cr_statistic 22 = 10;  (+8 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)
Rotghroths: cr_statistic 0 = 22;     cr_statistic 1 = 22;     cr_statistic 6 = 6;     cr_statistic 7 = 3; (+22 str, +22 dex, +6 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)

 

It's obvious immediately that the Drakon has superior quick action to the rotghroth. However, the rotghroth also happens to have an insane level of base dexterity. The question here is (also, luck isn't likely to have as significant an impact on initiative as quick action) what exactly is the base dexterity of the Drakon. It would seem to theoretically be 1, since it imports the base creature. However, since, experimentally, the drakon does have superior initiative to the rotghroth, its base dexterity must be fairly close.

Dex usually is level/2

Ahh... the new zone is a major part of the mod. Have you managed to see it?

Check my edit in the previous post... And keep a mind open for even more allies in the final battle.

You don't get just two party members. You can go with full soldiers.

If they are indeed close to war-trall and not like half a wartrall, I need to tone them down... Except if you mean after you level them up they come close to a freshly minted war-trall.

Kayar's Spire if you get your allies and tell your lieutenants to weaken the base should be easy to the point of those non-party soldiers being redundant. Also keep in mind, the power of the defenders scales partially with party size and partially with your own power (not just level; your combat abilities).

As a note, she's not a sorceress, she's an incantatrix. She can't shape, hasn't used canisters and hasn't use the geneforge.

As for the Spire (while the other option is still viable) I was going for the feeling "The Rebellion is at your door and we will trash and crash the place"

Before you go to Endgame:

Have you finished the questline of the Fort? There's a huge reward in the end if you're loyal to Greta. Including of course,

Also... the mod ends in the endgame.  While I boosted the Drakons there, you should have no problem steamrolling them.

And research notes and shaper equipment also increase the Combat effectiveness if given at the right time to the right NPC.

Also: doing a specific quest and then giving Shaper equipment and notes to the right NPC, will lead to your character being able to Shape more powerful creations while at the base.

Ohhh... right.

In Drypeak mines? I don't remember that, except veeery foggily.

Then why have a servile act as a servant mind? Strange.