alhoon

Most games (if not all) explain that the Outsiders can use them, that's not the issue. I just wonder how they use them. They would probably be more puzzled on how I use a computer I guess. It's not like I'm not giving the computer very complex instructions.

Some of the GF2 factions have living tools where the Shapers tell them to multiply. Probably they multiply like worms.

However, my hesitation with the "press the stem that way and it moves tentacle that way" is that we're talking three tentacles, 3D movement. Aside of being kind of hard to train the living tool, it would take hell of a lot of practice of an outsider engineer to work them properly and still slower than a Shaper.

Meaning, usual tools (The ones we see around shaper bases) would be perhaps better to use by outsiders.

Welcome to the Arena modification for Geneforge 5. As the name of the mod implies, this is a mod where you pit your character against an assortment of enemies.

The Arena mod, while fun, is not a full gameplay mod. There are no quests, there are no deep NPCs etc. It started as an effort to test the various changes I make as I work on the "Total Conversion Mod". However, new battle scripts and changes in items and creations give this mod an air of freshness.

The premise of this mod, is that your character is in a dream. It requires you to start a new game.

You start at 18th level, in a large room. A Drakon Lifecrafter nearby can boost your level, abilities, spells etc. A Shaper can create enemies and allies for you. There are 4 chests with equipment of different tiers for you to choose.
Once ready and you have told the Shaper to bring in the enemies, proceed to the next room. There's a signpost there. Read it and start the fight.

DOWNLOAD LINKS:

Link 1: http://www.mediafire.com/file/km52qxbj3pvq1gy/ArenaGF5.rar

INSTALLATION:

To install:
- Backup your "Geneforge 5" folder.
- Copy and paste the folder "Geneforge 5" to your Geneforge folder (where all the Geneforge games are). You should be prompted that some files will be overwritten. Accept and the mod will be installed.

To uninstall:
Simply overwrite the Geneforge 5 folder with the original from your back up.

The mod is tested and works with a clean installation of Geneforge 5 on Windows 10. It has not been tested for MAC.

This mod is not compatible with your GF5 saves! Don't try to use it with your normal GF5.

There is no wrong way to use this mod. If you want to make a character with 30 intelligence at 18th lvl so you can have a bazillion of top creations at full modifications, all the power to you. If you want to give your character Battle Shaping 15 and Shape Clawbug 15 to make 45 lvl clawbugs, so be it. If on the other hand want something more reasonable, like a lvl 23 character with mid-early equipment and 3-4 tier 2 creations and see how you fare against moderate enemies, so much the better. And of course, if you want to see how a pair of Battle Alphas fares against a rotgroth, all you have to do is Shape those Alphas and have them fight the Rotgroth without you interfering.
As said, no wrong way to use this mod.

Changes from the normal combat gameplay of GF5:
- The levels of most creations is different with a larger gap in power between the various creations.
- Some items have changed
- There are new NPC types (Batoneers, conscripts, Shocktroopers, Lifecrafters, Prospectives etc)

- There are a couple new Creations
- Some enemies have more complicated scripts

What you should be aware of:
- Not all creation types are available for the Player to Shape; I have put in only the creations that would be present in the total conversion mod.
- The scope of the total conversion mod is to be from levels 18-35 or so. However the intention is to make the world of the total conversion as such, that a level 35 character doesn't have immense power able to stomp everything underfoot.
- The chests are in "tiers". Beginning, mid-early, mid-late, end-game.
- There is an option to activate a "Healing field". This may periodically heal a few of your enemies every turn.
- In one of the chests are "sanity crystals". Having them in your equipment would be a great boon when fighting a Dementor.

- Therions are slightly overpowered compared to their essence cost compared to other Tier 2 creations. This is intentional because in the actual game learning to Shape them will require more effort.

A new one:

Living tools.

How non-Shapers use them? I bet that's somewhere in GF1.

For Batons, we know that when their tail is pressed, they shoot a thorn. But living tools do more complicated jobs than "fire!" They have to twist their tentacles in specific ways etc. A Shaper could just control the tool and tell it what to do, direct it on what to do. An outsider?  

How dare you sir!? I am not a lawful representative of the oppressive, evil, genocidal regime that kills PhD candidates. I have turned my back to these snakes. I would have killed Agent Shanti myself if I had the chance, to give more time to my friends to prepare for the Litapocalypse.

If I had a monocle, a tall hat and a cane I would challenge you to a duel over this. (I have a goatee so that part is OK)

I think it may be a bug because I assumed the creatures would be -neutral- not friendly. If they're friendly, then all I have to do to get people killed is turn them hostile (without turning the guards hostile).

EDIT: Not nice. I feel again as I was feeling when doing Shaper quests in GF4. That is, guilty. OK, Stanis was a butthole. But the way he died? As it played out, betrayed by me as I sabotaged the machinery since I was as much a coward as he said and my Vlish were keeping him immobilized while my servile was hitting him with acid.

That's a bad way to go... Sure, Shanti suffered the same indignation, but I wish I was better than Stanis. At least, he will get a grave.

Awesome... I don't care about what they will think of me anyway.

And it's not dirty work to rat out someone. I plan to eventually kill Barzahl anyway. Or, ahem, have those 4 drayks he keeps in pain to do the dirty  noble work for me. Poetic justice and all. Because it just that I don't face someone that powerful.

I will try have him killed by Heust Blade, my Servile follower. I will keep loading till that Barzite dies from a servile. In hindsight, that's not much better than what he did to Shanti, but ... well, I can't defend that. It's more about revenge than justice here. I would also have killed Shanti and I want the Barzite to die a humiliating death.

I blame the canisters.  

EDIT: OK, I know that you all told me to cut down on the Edits, but this happened and made me think it's a bug:

Trying to go to the Arena, I accidentally clicked on what I thought was a random guard. He wasn't. He was a Barzite Guardian that have gone full-canister mad, Trotkan. I told him I don't think he's a real guardian and he attacked me. Having a full roaster, I didn't think much of it, until I saw two Alphas from the guards approaching and I thought "Oh, oh... if all the guards turn hostile to support the Barzite I'm in trouble". Well, they weren't. They attacked the Barzite. I may have messed with the controls of the torture pylons but since I didn't get a message now that the Pylons are bad, I think it was a bug of the form of "creature turns hostile, friendly creatures attack it".

In case it isn't and it has to do with the Pylons: Can I later do the Barzite ending (if I ever find the courage to join them) or I have locked that out half-way through the game?

What I meant is that I got the same Dialogue from Barzahl. I couldn't rat out the canister-addled gorilla and tell Barzahl, "I found evidence that thing lied to you, Shanti was humiliated and murdered; not died in an accident, not executed legally."

All I can say is that "the story stinks! I want to challenge that huge, Shaped-to-lolness guy in a one-to-one fight without creations" which seems a not nice way to make a suicide. I am a Shaper, I can't fight alone. Or actually fight for that manner. My battle magic is still pathetically low. I cast blessings on my creations in battles and try to not block their path to the enemy.

Investigating the Crystal caverns at lvl 21. Wandered around, didn't start any trouble. Found a 600+hp cryodrayk that has a perfect crystal. A crystal I need... for an artifact I thing.
I commanded successfully the Drayk to hand it over. But I feel bad for lording around the poor mad creature. I hope the artifact I'll make will make me feel better. I still need to find a drayk's tendon.
If I find out that I took over the mind of a free creature and stole its toy (that kept it calm) only to get something that I will sell, I'll be quite sad.

Found Agent Shanti's body.
It was sensible to have her executed but there's sadistic cruelty in the way it was done. Have I found her alive, I would have killed too, that's true. But I would give her a more honorable death than shooting her in the back while she was disguised as a servile and dumping her body. They could have at least put her in a grave.
To add insult to injury, I can't tell Barzahl that his gorilla executed Agent Shanti despite orders. I thought that would be the "leadership" way to kill my first Barzite.

Either through experimentation, or if you're proficient with the editor, from the editor.

Allow me to help please

That is not the command that adds an Artilla. What this command does, it remove 300 coins from the PC (minimum left 0) and set a "flag" for the game, specifically the flag 41,20 to 1.

The flag 41,20 in this case is used to track whether the Artilla can be added to the party. You have to talk to the artilla and get it to join.

The command that adds a character to the party is:

add_char_to_party(X+8);

with "X" being the number of the character in that zone. For example if I want to add the 50th character in the zone (which I should know who it is) I would put

  add_char_to_party(58);

Why 58 and not 50? Because the numbers 0-7 are for the character and the creatures in the player's group.

From my committee (7 members), 2 openly admitted they have not read the whole thing, true. But even if they were an aggressive bunch, I had a very low risk of death whether I was an incompetent and weakling or not; I would not earn my PhD, but I wouldn't be turned to fertilizer for those rapidly growing plants.

In military officer academies around the world, there's indeed some (very low) risk of death but mostly during training or live ammo shooting. Those without stomach for it are weeded out through non-lethal hardship, like Greta was. Not because as a test they're put through a maze full of enemies and deadly traps.

It is cruel, it is wrong and shows not only elitism, but pettiness towards those that are not up to very specific standards.

I am not saying the early rebel way of sending half-trained people to the geneforge or handing out canisters like candy is the proper method, but at it has a better survival rate.

Shamelessly stolen and sent to various friends and classmates that will defend their thesis within a year. I even sent it to my own students. I'll make sure that I sit near the door during their Thesis defense.

Hmmm... your analogy is good.

However to continue with it: As far docs go in universities we have T.As (my level), Lecturers, assistant professors, associate professors and full professors. Deans can (in my uni) be only associate professors or full professors and Rectors can only be full professors.

Clear and defined ranks. Are all T.As equal? Nope (publications, experience, PhD supervisor). Associate professors? Again nope.

But there are ranks.

I understand the analogy of what you say. I understand that the term "novice" given in GF3 for pre-apprentice Shaper could be a local rank just in use in Greenwood academy and other academies may have called them with other names. I understand that the term "Prospective" is more or less "defended the PhD thesis successfully but has not be sworn in as a doc yet before the council" (we give an oath in front of the council here and we're announced in the parliament's paper; in other countries the president is the one announcing them all together).

However... while it is tempting to use that simple analogy of yours, what makes us think that it is that way and the names on the loading screen are non-canonical? That the Shapers are using the doc analogy and not something similar to uni professor ranks?

Mostly to put my thoughts in order, I will put in pros and cons of the "PhD analogy".

Pros:

- Simplicity. In the absence of further evidence the simplest answer is often the true one.

- There is little distinction in dialogue between shapers aside of trash-talking apprentices and novices and respecting councilors.

- Explains why some Shapers have honorifics like "Sage Quothe" or "General Corby". It's because it reflects their current job and they keep the title later. A Professor has a PhD but he's called professor after all usually not dr.

- Another validation of the moral superiority of the Rebellion*

Cons:

- The loading screens name Journeymen and Masters. 

Since "Authority: journeyman" does not necessarily mean "rank" but perhaps is a classification like "junior researcher" ... Yeah, I'm going with your version Triumph.  

* Of course the "PhD analogy" puts some things into perspective.

When I defended my PhD, the 7 professors of the committee asked some questions. My supervisor would have supported me if needed (it wasn't needed, my defense was very tame and friendly).

When Shapers have to go through the equivalent test (Testing Fields) they have to fight several scorpions big like motorbikes, acid-spitting quadruples big as panthers, gorilla-like apes (thands) or deactivate bombs, cut through locks as good as the average safe and repair machinery (else they will be attacked by aforementioned monsters).

All that so they can finally start learning.

The Testing Halls are strewn with graves.

How many PhD candidates have died in defense of their Thesis?

Preposterous, bloodthirsty system that propagates an evil elitist magocracy.

And before we start with "Shaping is... " analogies, please remember:

We have people in the forum that are researchers of genetics. They can do some real damage too if they make an accident or worse, if they do it on purpose.

Yet, the threat of bioterrorism or a modified plant acting as weed and choking out other flora has not been considered a reason for people that study genetics to risk their lives to get a PhD in genetics.

3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Speaking of Shapers and rules: have you met a fellow named Aodare yet? You'll know him when you find him. Or what about visiting the Loyalist Encampment zone? Knowing your high standards for what constitutes an orthodox Shaper, I'm curious if any of these folks will qualify for the "True Shaper" Hall of Fame.

I haven't spent much time with them, but they're among the least obnoxious Shapers I've met I think. I haven't seen them doing anything non-Shapery and them suggesting to me to not trust lying Zakary the deceiver and that being unaligned is smart makes them orthodox in my book so far. They're the ones responsible for making me figure out that I could just... walk out of the valley. I "finished" (lol, good one) the game after them. OK, their agent knows too much about Shaping, but that's not unorthodox, just not common.

Also, I don't think I have high standards for Shaper orthodoxy. Lord Rahul counts as one, Santi as another. Both were justifiably killed by the Rebellion in canon but as far as I know they were orthodox Shapers. I admit I haven't search Rahul's place; it's totally possible I will find a canister locked in his chamber or something sinister. But so far, he seems the traditional annoying Shaper. The Guardian that protects Taygen and disagrees with him is also traditional IMO.

2 hours ago, Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch Cherry Bomb said:

Alhoon, just because the word "novice" is used doesn't mean it is a distinct formal rank.  It might just be another word that is used for apprentices, or maybe it is used loosely to refer to any number of a range of early-career Shapers and Shaper trainees.  That goes for ALL OF THESE WORDS.  Unless it is clear that it is being used in a specific, discriminating way, which is true of few if any of these.

Oh.

Haven't thought of that.

So you mean the whole lot of the people in Greenwood academy could be (or perhaps not) of the same rank as the people that finished the academy and were doing their apprentiships like the GF2 protagonist?

It is possible.

There is one "young Shaper" in GF4, the first boss I encountered. And actually the first Shaper I ever saw. I haven't seen their sprite yet. I can tell you that a single robed figure standing alone in the way was very intimidating...

 Thinking of it the text says "he must be a young shaper" without giving any rank. But perhaps that was not because the Shapers lack ranks, but because the rebel I was playing didn't know of them.

I am not entirely convinced though. The Shapers are too many to not have some ranks other than councilor and prospective.

In any case, do you believe the system is more or less apprentice < Shaper < Councilor ?

Lord Rahul is below councilors? But... I think it was mentioned in GF3 the Ashen Isles are a province. Were they bundled in with Burnwood province perhaps? So, lying Zakary the Deceiver is also a Lord? Or just Shaper-boss over a large number of low-ranking Shapers?

Prospectives are mentioned in GF3 and GF5, novices in GF3 and apprentices in GF2 and GF3 although I forget the GF3 definition of the Apprentice, novice, prospective. It was detailed in early GF3. I have to go read those parts.

It would make sense from in game perspective to have no clear rank for "Full" Shapers aside of "X person has permission to Shape up to Alphas and Artilae" (Journeyman authority required).  

Does anyone know if the loading-screen information is canonical? Cause there it mentions "authority required" as "all", "Journeyman", "Master", "Barred". They also mention War Tralls as some -really- dangerous creations with high probability to go rogue and fertile. And yet, many Shapers have an abundance of them. More than Kyshaaks; that may explode on creation or wingbolts that the Shapers (as of GF4) have not determined their tendency to go rogue and have remnants of failed experiments.

Really, when GF4 says the Shapers threw the rules out the window, it's not joking...

28 minutes ago, Triumph said:

 

Now I'm really curious which of the three Slarty thinks had the best shot...?

Please, please, use spoiler tags! I won't be able to overlook that info. Please?

I don't have time to finish the game with even one faction, let alone 3, before that post is answered.

24 minutes ago, Nim said:

Where did you get this idea from ?

From Zakary and the Barzites.

No, G3-5 knowledge doesn't matter here. At this point in time the council is notoriously slow to act, nevermind that we have an example of a full shaper gone missing and nothing happened (Sharon). Zak and Barzahl managed to abscond with lots of knowledge and serviles from Sucia and years later the council doesn't even know. At best they'll send another agent at some point to investigate.

In GF3-5 the council is also notoriously slow to act.

As in, there have been years of preparations and the Shapers haven't figured there was a rebellion brewing in GF3, the Rebellion was going strong for years taking up land and fortifying before the "Shaper armies came" in GF4 and they were beating back the Rebellion on all fronts and... in GF5 you have to win the war for the council yourself because they're so divided that you need to smack some sense to 3/7 remaining councilors for them to agree to attack Gazaki-Uss.

I mean, the Drakons have been there for some time, and the Shapers evidently had the forces to attack Gazaki Uss even if they lost part of their forces (Rockfall). If another councilor was with Astoria (we see another Guardian aside of Alwan in the Council), or if the council grabbed Rawal by the throat and told him "You know what? Unless you write right now the command for half your Shapers and Creations to march to Gazaki-Uss, you won't live the Citadel alive" they wouldn't even need my PC.

You're right about Sharon, but... Sharon wasn't sent to investigate the state of a colony. However, you're right that by the time someone asks "what happened with the investigation on colonies A, B, C, Drypeak, E and F?", gets a reply "we heard X from A-F, but Shanti never came back", then it goes all the way up, and council dispatches more people it could perhaps be 1-2 years.

Man, the Shapers have grown to be completely useless in administration and government. For all their talk of Empire, government-wise all the can do is bully untrained outsiders and serviles. It was well beyond their time to be toppled.

However, Sharon mentions that while it's not unheard of, it's not common for Shapers to go "overlooked". And Sharon was actively hiding; for all we know the council may have been aware she was missing but not where she has been holed up.

As such, yes, there's a chance Santi and an apprentice would never be looked up in the inefficient bureaucracy of the Shapers but from what I heard from Sharon and Santi, there's a greater probability that they will be looked for.

You really need to try to forget the later games while playing G2. That knowledge only hinders you.

I respectfully disagree.

Another thought: Sharon's disappearance (and she's not the only Shaper that went dark; Khyrik or how the Trakovite boss in GF4 was named, also deserted I think) helps explain those other minor rebellions (eliminated from history books according to later games) and how all these barred places came to be.  

I guess that half the times the Guardians have to deal with something serious, it's a Shaper that went rogue or deserted.

What about Shaper ranks?

I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor

Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply.

I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters.

There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper.

The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective.

I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers.

My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

Well, everyone in the valley knows it. The Awakened so far just seem to ... hope.

My character also knows that when an Agent and an apprentice show up and they don't return, things are going to get moving. Everyone in the Valley knew that the Shapers would come.

My character and Shanti are the first wave.

According to the "leave" ending, 12 Guardians are the second wave.

Anyway, it's not the "minor modifications" I was dreading. It was... the mentality change. I am at 5 canisters I think. But whether that affects my ending(s) or not, it's the fact that my character is now going crazy that bothers me. I went too far. Mind you, I didn't get a mild message of being kinda less empathic; it was a full on "you don't care what they think" message. My character hasn't become Tuldaric or Phariton but now doesn't care what "the people in the background noise" think.

I don't know what the pit of the bound is, but I'm not giving the Bazrites anything; I will try to not crush them all though, so that they will delay the Shapers when they arrive. Or, at least that was what I would do if I didn't know that the Shapers outnumber everything in the valley 20-to-1.

I hate I can't save people in this game. It's laid pretty thick that the Shapers will purge everything; they did it before and now there are armed and dangerous rebels on the mountains.

From what I've seen so far (which is not much, the loyalists and the various basic areas of the rebels) the Takers seem to have the best chance; they're holed up well and not worrying with "rogues" have a big bunch of creations. The Barzite army has to rely on improperly controlled creations and mad Shapers that can Shape but not control. Once they feel their breeding pits they will have  a big struggle in their hands to control all those things the moment they get them away from the torture-pylons. It is pretty evident by the Alphas and Glaahks made away from their cities. They will be busy even without the Shapers. For all their might, if Litalia et co didn't arrive for a year or two, the Barzites would have imploded by themselves.

Wow, being indecisive between Takers and Awakened helped me with Phariton! He seems to be working on wannabe Unbound. A noble task. He could have stopped Litalia et co if he wasn't working alone.
The quest is hilarious: He asks anything from puresteel to... stealing a cauldron from a kitchen or something.
As for his equipment, he's practically asking me to steal it.

Perhaps I'd have considered "joining" Phariton (I see him as "Unaligned rebel boss" like the "Unaligned Shaper boss" in that fort)... if it wasn't the "Who wouldn't use canisters?! They show the truth! To use a canister is to see deep in the core of the Universe!". Suuure buddy. That is what they do.
He seems worse than Jared (GF4) when it comes to canister addiction.
And what a great loot he has thrown around! Artifact materials, very nice weapons, it's like Christmas.

I also found a conduit shard, that some people have been asking for. I remember the Barzites made a demon that stole it but I'm not giving it to them. However, I think others are asking for it. For the life of me I can't remember who though.

Back to Medab... Got a message that people look at me curiously now and I don't give a damn. I used too many canisters! Curse you Phariton with all those level-worth canisters lying around.
A raise in endurance: 6skill points. A raise in intelligence: 9 skill points. I was planning to raise both. Those two canisters were -3 levels worth- of skill points. I caved in. I admit it. I wanted a piece of the "universe core" that Phariton was talking about. The part about me saving 3 levels worth of skills.
And that "part of universe core" was the key that unlocked the gates of madness. I'm a Tuldaric-wannabe now. Started with good intentions, dreams to help the Serviles. And lost my sanity on the way.

ROAD TO PHARITON:
 After pacifying all the pylons, I've spent over 30 minutes combing the place to find the lever or something that would allow me to continue. I was about to give up...
I like the graphics mod but it makes the levers hard to see. And the lever being behind a corner and a corner and not showing unless I stood 2 squares fro it didn't help.

And then... I met a "bloated" Servile made more or less as a walking living tool with a strange stomach. Revulsion aside, I'm not sure these creatures are treated badly but I certainly look down on making them idiot savants on purpose. Yes, Shaping them as technicians instead of training them is faster, but it leaves them... damaged.
This has a feeling of "stepford wives" but with bloated stomach serviles. I thin they may carry worms or some other kind of nastiness there.
I don't like this place even though the serviles seem treated OK, unlike Monarch's serviles. But I'm not sure these serviles were given enough mental faculties to develop a personality.
I think this is one of the not-that-many times in GF series that I would like the option to reShape Creations; boost the intelligence of these serviles, even if it means "pushing aside" some of the technical specifications so that a personality can develop. Turning them to people, for lack of better word.

I am told that going further would cause them to attack me. I don't want to have to kill them. I just want to be able to give them personality. And if then, after developing a self-protection instict they attack me, then I will feel OK killing them. Now it just seems wrong.
I'll try to find a mechanics\stealth way to that guy.

Also: Do the followers talk? I think you told me they don't. I have a servile with me, a taker, Heust Blade. I wish he would give me some input, as a servile, on how to deal with these creatures.

And then:
Canisters... intelligence (always useful) and endurance (I was low).
OK, here's 2 canisters more for me. I think I am at 4... I plan to become Tulda-forged at some point. Let's see what happens now.

Phariton has used 16 that I counted. And if there's sixteen broken canisters in his bizarre room of temptation (seriously, canisters that give intel?!) we can safely assume the message here is "He's used a ton".

I found an Alpha that "is not rogue" but still doesn't obey Phariton cause Phariton didn't take control of his own creation. I was able to control it cause I'm awesome and I haven't bathed in canisters.
It's a lvl 20 alpha (i.e. same level as my lowest level Vlish), so exchanging a Vlish for Hryk was not viable. And a free Hryk attacked me.
In any case, in GF4-5 Battle Alphas were baaarely able to talk. The Alphas here seem smarter.

Isn't there an option to release it as is? It has been some time since I ran the whole "let's do every atrocity possible!" gameplay and I have tried to forget. I am trying to forget...  (Ofcourse, I'm joking. I'm not judging you friend).

I can, in PM.

PS. You have to be lifecrafter or Shaper for this quest.

Yeap, that kind of thing is explicitly forbidden in GF3-5.