alhoon

But in the ending, the "surviving Drakons" agree to destroy their geneforges... that means that Drakons are probably allowed to exist

LITALIA ENDING

QUESTION: Did I miss something, or with Litalia's ending there's no "land of Sucia" ? There was no mention about that. Just a moratorium on shaper research and draining of the geneforges.

What happened with Drakons, Drayks and Gazers that existed?

OMG! That crazy witch Litalia, mastermind of the rebellion, Trakovite terrorist...

slipped after me into the citadel dome to address the freaking Shaper council! O_O

And she prevailed! Trakovites for the win! Shapers will stop researching if we kill Ghaldring.

Or so the shapers promised. Not sure how that will hold even if the shaper council actually embraces that philosophy.

But Litalia prevailed. A lone Trakovite brought an end to centuries of Shaper tradition.

Now, Litalia has to sacrifice her closest ally for over a decade, the drakon they started the rebelion with, for her (new) beliefs. And she's all for it. To compare, when a Drakon spoke badly about Litalia to Ghaldring, Ghaldring threatened to kill the instigator; that's how close the two were.

That woman is insane... there's a reason I like her so much and that is it.

You may say that the rebellion brought an end to shaper traditions but Litalia started the rebellion, so...

Very, very true observation. She attacked teenagers that couldn't defend themselves, helped to create the Unbound and all..

But I like her very much as an NPC. She more or less is worse than the Drakons. Everything the shapers hate...

The reply when I made a question about the task she gave me with Taygen (to UNLEASH the disease) earned her the place in my signature.

In Alwan's control core B, I found... a creation able to make creations! O_O

Alwan is either unaware that one of his guys did that or he's willing to go FAR further to win the war than I thought.

Working towards my Litalia ending.

Man, this is a really immoral line of work... its assignment is a crime against humanity so far!

I didn't say that as a shaper I would ever forgive Rawal. In fact, I would ask for his head since he abandoned the battle and built the most illegal piece of magic tool that is, whatever the reason.

However, it seems logical that building the most illegal piece of magic tool to not be seen as terrible AFTER such a war

It's certainly not good, but I highly doubt that it's the worst thing possible

Thinking of it, it seems it was the worse thing possible according to shaper law and values as it was in GF4 before Shapers got a huge beating.

Shaper law and values that went down the drain after the end of the world since rogues became diplomats, Drakons and barred creations were allowed to exist, and next to the 2 provinces of Terrestia were the 4+3 provinces of Sucia with their cannisters.

The shapers had to endure drakon diplomats in their midst, servile envoys looking down their big noses on them etc.

So, in the midst or just after such apheaval of the "old shaper way of thinking" which could not accomodate cannisters, drakons, drayks, out-of-guild shapers, rogue creations... having a geneforge without any proof of its use indeed seems less jarring.

Now add that Rawal was a councilor, that he had blackmail material etc and people would be more ready to accept excuses like "Oh, that geneforge? OF COURSE I didn't plan to use it to create my own army of shapers! I made it to study the enemy! OK, 2-3 of my followers were changed so I could study the effects, but their sacrifice was necessary for the war! Cannisters in the foundry? OMG! I have no idea who put them there."

After all, in real history, the Great War radically changed the way people thought about monarchs, governments etc. The devastation brought by the rebellion was similar I think.

Not really, since my character destroyed that blackmail material (Astoria ending) for one councilor. Also, having a geneforge and shaping your servants with cannisters after placing in them a control tool is worse than anything in the eyes of the shapers.

A very plausible explanation since he was a shaping powerhungry leader of the Drakons, the equivalent of Alwan IMO. But I would like to read about it never the less. After all, Akhari knew how to make Unbound... If he escaped, he could shape 5-6 Drayk technicians, make a few cannisters and put up a lab in the blasted lands to suddenly drop a new wave of Unbound on Sucia o Terrestia.

About the fight in the city... playing Astoria's finale I was talking to people and traders that had their goals, tried to use me get the ear of the council (some to learn magic, some to get access to more customers etc).

People that I have KILLED during Ghaldring's finale. I would have a hard time doing it if I played the endings in reverse. I.e. if I had met all those quite nice people that were so eager to get in my good side, I would have trouble in the Ghalding ending, since I would try to avoid killing them.

I had trouble already in Taygen's battle to avoid killing his consort when my for-the-fight shaped non-controlled Rotgroths were closing to her house.

(Absorbed a rotgroth before it killed the "naturalist" merchant)

Also: In neither Astoria nor Rawal ending, Rawal faces judgement for building a geneforge! Sure, all geneforges are destroyed which means his geneforge is discovered too. Taygen was exiled as a dangerous madman as expected. Rawal was WORSE. he was giving out cannisters and had a geneforge.

Astoria finale:

(I consider this, my "official" finalle. The rest are just out of curiosity. In this one, I did a lot of quest remnants.)

HEAVY SPOILERS AHEAD! ! !

The battle

The battle with the drakons was surprisingly easy. The Shapers were for the most part, surprisingly cowardish.

Astoria was keeping up her reserve for the last battle, while her lieutenants were hanging back. When I was playing with Ghaldring, I had Akari Blaze with me, a force of Drakons (not just 3 shapers) and Ghaldring himself was keeping back reinforcements from the Citadel.

With Astoria... I crossed the whole outside and city without seeing a single other shaper, and they were controling creations from afar.

And in the end? After I had deactivated pylons, killed Drakon guards and all? We all charged Ghaldring and the two drakon leaders. As in Astoria, 3 shapers (shaper, agent, guardian), me and my 7 creations and 8 other creations I had taken over! That was too shapey. I charged in battle with 15 creations. -15- We didn't have room to maneuver.

Ghaldring, as expected, died as a hero. Also, as expected he was screaming nonsense like "the time of humans is over! The time of serviles will never come! This is the time of Drakons!"

Greta totally, totally betrayed Ghaldring. Not even remorse! Sure, in the other finalle we did a coup de Grace with her, but ... she could have just NOT be there instead of turning her back to him. I learned in the finalle screens that she and the serviles have been planning to betray the Drakons since when Astoria reached out to them.

The ending:

So... Mekhen, the starting servile, became an envoy. She and Greta have been planning to betray the Drakons for some time. Can't really appreciate them for that, although Ghaldring was more or less clear that he planned to become the boss.

My character, unlike Ghalding's ending becomes a Shaper envoy in the rebels!

Alwan, a fanatic but not hypocrite allowed himself to die before singing the armisticle. As such, Rawal dominated the new council. Alas... we can't have them all.

What happened with Akari Blaze? No word about him. In this finalle, he's completely absent.

And so, that was my finalle. I am... sad. Bittersweet moment the finishing of this game. I have clocked about 85 hours playing GF5 alone (I was counting).

Sure, I have some finalles to explore yet. Litallia's I am looking forward, the rest not so much. But effectively, I consider now that I finished the game.

(and that Ghaldring's finalle was better).

GHALDRING ENDING! ! !

(heavy, heavy spoilers ahead!)

I finally finished the first of the finales. I did it mostly out of curiosity since I am split between Astoria and Litallia for my "Real" ending.

However, the Drakon finalle seemed very, very good to me. What happend in my Drakon finalle was: Drakons seize the moment and crush the shapers. Meanwhile my character, Greta and the moderates are sent to the east to stay out of the way.

Knowing when that leads, we build a counter-revolution and when the Drakons are about to win... we strike and bring them down too. It's not a counter-revolution since we're not with the Shapers, it's a coup-de-Grace within the revolution. After beating the exhausted, depleated Drakons fast and easy, everything more or less exists in some form.

Trakovites are around and gaining traction. Geneforges and dangerous power-giving techniques are eradicated. Creations realize that Shaper Laws were around for a reason so we more or less follow them in the future. Shapers keep their first two provinces. Rebels keep the larger (but devastated) part of the continent.

The part that confused me is this, about my character "No really rebel or shaper..." :?

But... I'm the person that killed -6- out of 7 councilors! That I broke the line! That brought the Shaper empire to its knees! I was pro-rebel before joining factions, to the point that Shapers didn't like me at all!

Also, no word of what happened to Akari Blaze.

Hyena: I stopped reading your post when you started mentioning stuff I haven't seen from GF3 yet. I am close to finishing GF5 and I plan to play GF3 then. So far in GF3, I haven't got out of the tutorial zone.

About Guardians and agents: Nah, I don't mean (exactly) that they receive training in armor and combat in the 4th year, I would say they could well receive from the beginning some training while in armor to get used to it (like squires did), progressing to heavier armors as they become stronger.

And I think that yes, they receive rudimentary training in combat in their last year, and then it's a process like boot camp+menial tasks period for a few years, where they actually learn the basics of being an Agent\Guardian\Shaper.

Personally, as I said, I think that the academy could be seen as a prolonged live-in high-school, since they learn the very very basics of being a shaper\guardian\agent there. More like learning basic algebra, biology and literature in high-school. You pick a focus in the end and then you go to university matching your decisions\talents.

Since Guardians especially and some Agents are fighting people, I think they learn the very basic things that they will need once they get out of the academy.

In any case, the shapers show little-to-no-care about the people that finish the education; the tests taken in the end of the road, are deadly. (I found a dead prospect at GF5 testing halls). As such, I wouldn't consider it strange to not train their students optimally.

Presumably he was a pretty old drayk before he used the Geneforge. Hence, decades later, a very old drakon.

What? Drayks shaped themselves to Drakons?!?!? Drayks can "improve" to Drakons?

But Ghaldring said they were made by a shaper. And I have found "very old" Drayks too.

Err, Danette and company on Sucia discovered that centuries earlier.

Did they, or they just made the geneforge without realizing what DNA is etc? I haven't played GF1, so I don't know.

Taygen discovered cells comprise living things and that DNA controls how cells are formed!

Well, madman or not, that was awesome bit of research

Yes, I plan doing his finale eventually.

Right now, I'm "meh" that his battle is very anti-climatic. When I got him alone in his castle by accident, I crushed him like a bug. In his throne, he was bring in rotgroths and had super-soldiers. He was also casting an area spell that did tons of damage. Now? Now he summoned some worthless slugs and throwing just essence orbs.

I'm glad he survived. I enjoyed his castle very much.

I honorlessly poisoned Alwan, the one enemy I respected most.

In any case, I went to Taygen's castle hunting him. O_O I found awesome machinery there. I don't know what "Purity Agent" is or how it works, but from what I've learned so far from people (including Rawal) it has to do with a disease\catastrophy to eradicate creations.

Fine work... Taygen could put the Drakons to shame with his shaping work. Seems more impressive than the Unbound and more effective. And equally mad.

For Ghaldring ending, I killed Astoria by blowing her up with her pylons. It was the hardest for me to go against since I like her, so I killed her first. Then I attacked Taygen and in 3 battles now, I haven't managed to keep him bottled up so I can kill him THERE and not fight him in his keep. I'll keep trying.

He's very easy all things considered. I expected him to put up a greater fight.

EDIT: after many repeats I found out he has "plot protection". He can't be killed there. I do have to travel to his castle and attack him. Never set foot there to not make him angry before hand. Alas...

So, I go for Alwan now. There's a way, the smart way to kill him with poison. After 5 hours of battle through Zephyr Oasis, I'll go for that, but Alwan deserves a Guardian's death.

I did the Rawal ending first.

By far the easiest. The moment I went to Rawal for my last reward before moving to help the rebels, he offered me "one final task" ... that led to the finale.

One question: We lost. Badly. Within 2 years according to the finalle Drakons wipe out the council, ravage Shaper lands, attack and bring us down with relative ease.

Is it always so, or if I was pro-shaper the council could have won?

I realize why people say this finalle is not a real finalle. I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand why it's considered "meh"

?

I found just one Crystal in Bennhold's fort and I don't know that island. I haven't gone to some areas that I didn't have a reason to go, or that they were faction quests.

Thank you for your answers.

So... I am torn between following Litalia, just because. Following Astoria cause she's the only one that makes sense. And finally following Ghalrding to kill Rawal and shaper Taygen.

Then do Alwan's to see what happens. And Rawal's to see what he plans to do with those cannisters and the geneforge.

Well, you're making some compeling arguments. However, I would like to say that a shaper in his or her 16 in the academy wouldn't be taught any magic at all probably for a couple of years. Very rudimentary training in shaping could well start in the 3rd year, when the academy student has shown loyalty and promise. And as we know from Geneforge 5, you finish the academy, the menial lab-hand period and then after a successful test you learn some kiiinda advanced shaper magic (clawbugs, "2nd tier" spells etc)

My opinion diverts from yours, in that you consider entering the academy as joining up and being equivalent to boot camp or joining the military etc.

Personally I think that happens AFTER you finish the academy. I.e. I don't consider the academy the equivalent of entering boot camp; I consider the last year of the academy equivalent to entering boot camp.

What I mean is that when Litalia attacked the academy in GF3, she didn't attack rookies and officer cadets. She attacked schoolkids that could not defend themselves. The attack on the academy is IMO an act of terror, equivalent of attacking a military highschool

Sure about-to-graduate agents had the most basic battle magic and about-to-graduate shapers could (barely) make fyoras. That doesn't bring them to the level of people finishing basic training; far from it.

That's why I think that the academy is equivalent of joining a military high-school instead of joining an officer's academy. As such the age of "joining the military and even then as a probationary member" in Shaper society is ... about 20 when you finish the academy.

As a note, don't take my arguments as competitive or something; I enjoy the discussion and value your opinion. If anything, I like how the world of Geneforge can sustain such discussions.

ANOTHER THING: I killed Bennhold (I wish there was a Bandit finale ). I am 45 level. I believe I am at the point now that I have to do quests that "close up" factions (like killing Platano).

Am I correct in that assumption? Is there more that I have missed in the game?

What level should I be more or less when I start the "join faction and end the game" part? (I have 4 creations usually but I make expendable extras in some areas and have them kill everything while I chill in a corner)

The seer says that I make shapers nervous so far. And I have to do some rebel actions, like free some serviles etc.

If Shapers get too angry, would I be attacked at the cities and forts outright? Just in Alwan's and Taygen's? Depends on the location?

Are the Trakovites a faction of their own? Or Can I join another and do stuff for Litalia on the side?

Well, part of those problems could be mitigated by alchemy and perhaps some magic. Also, keep in mind that the Shapers seem to be in a late-medieval\early-renaissance society.

Pages started their training far younger than 16 and squires were usually teens running around in chain mail. Knighthood at 16 was not unheard of even if it was as you correctly said, sub-optimal.

So if there were cases that squires turned to knights at 16, or apprentice craftsmen to regular craftsmen etc, starting the training at that age doesn't seem to me that far fetched.

What I mean is that even if according to what we know now and the way we think now 16 seems too early to start... doesn't mean the shapers thought that way and shared the same opinion.

Thanks. I think that's a reasonable answer and it certainly fits the place. Whether it's the only reason or not, it certainly is an important reason.

When Alwan is holding the line literally, sending people to die over easily accessible by sea failed colonies in a desert is a waste. Even Taygen admits his place is low priority.

So far, I find Unbound EVERYWHERE in the Dera Reaches. Is there an explanation on how there are so many so far from the Drakon fortress?

Don't tell me please, just tell me "yes and you'll find later" or "no, it's because of the assumed success in the first attack".

The shapers from what I've seen have more or less abandoned Dera Reaches to Taygen's camps and inefficiency as he makes and remakes creations. They hold the town, the fortified Eastern zones ... and that is it so far. Everything else is packed with rogues and Unbound.

I even found an Unbound kept in seclusion by Cryo-drayks, feeding him lots of stuff. I killed the Drayks aaaand... the Unbound started running around. He was close the gate to one of the concentration camps for creations that had NOTHING to save them from the Unbound except of bound creations. Even a couple of the Cryodrayks could take that place down.

And the Shapers had the wondrous idea to make a pylon-field outside their city that stops everything except Unbound. So the place is literally crawling with the things. Inside pylons so I can't get everywhere. Thankfully my creations ignore those pylons too.

Well, if we assume that the academy starts at 16 instead of 18, and that it's 4 years because it includes the necessary brainwashing (which is easier done in younger ages), Alwan would be 19-20 in the start of GF3.

Now if we assume that after the academy, squire-like training along with the stuff you mentioned after the end of the academy, the period of "shaper prospect" as called in GF5, it could take a few years of menial jobs along with training under a full guardian that has 3-4 prospectives. Probably at that time they narrow down their training, focusing more in one area. That could be 3-4 years or so. However, a post-academy guardian-in-training, could see some action. So for Alwan the period was probably cut down and he was serving his "post-academy" training under guardians on the field cause of his actions in GF3.

There he could have been distinguished, progressed to full Guardian within 1-2 years of such service and then... serving as a guardian and rising through the ranks in the 7-8 years that follow till GF4 starts.

According to the description in GF5, he is young. So was Greta in GF4 and GF5.

According to his story as told by him and as told by others (his yesmen but also Greta) he's young and after GF3 he more or less joined the Shaper army and rose in ranks. There's also another young Guardian, very young, leading a fort in GF5. Hence I don't think Guardians go to all these "Extra" studies. Probably serving as well as training. Like squires did or a similar place.

I.e. while Shapers may spend years after academy in menial tasks and then advanced training, I think that for Guardians it is academy, service\training (like squires) for a couple of years and then at your 21-22 you are a low-rank Guardian.

Alwan during the special circumstances, and having proven his loyalty probably skipped part of that.

As for Litalia, she's insane and she has shaped and de-shaped herself. So pinning her age is not possible on appearances and her memory and reliability is low.

From the into of GF5, the rebellion is at its 10th-11th year. Later we learn that the Unbound are around for about 3-4 years. As such, by the intro and narrative, GF5 should be 11-12 years after the start of GF3 and 10-11 after its end and 3-4 years after GF4 end.

Just set foot in Dera Reaches. The cannister madness returned but I managed to hold it off.

I see, right away, that Taygen's faction is not for me. I met some serviles, beaten every day for being serviles.

It will be quite hard I guess to raise my standing with shapers (Shaky as it is right now) in this place.

In the Oasis, everyone gives me grief about my creations. Taygen's consort though, seemed nice. Taygen himself, while radical, doesn't seem hateable either. I don't like his laws or mostly, how they are enforced, but so far he's like a weird old grand-pa. For the time, I prefer him from Alwan and he's miles ahead of Rawal.

However, as far as shapers go, I would consider Taygen a borderline shaper; not for the consort but for his views on creations. I believe after the war ended and things settled down, he would be considered heretic and dangerous and would be disciplined by the rest of the shapers.

So... how are Trakovites hunted down for their dangerous ideas but "Taygenites" are just frowned upon?

Because Taygen is a councilor and nobody wants to risk opening another front yet.