alhoon

Instead of opening a new thread any time I wonder about something in the Geneforge world, I decided to open a thread to throw most of the "not-that-important" questions or remarks in.

I will start with:

Can Shapers replace severed legs and arms? Can they cure blindness? I mean, they can actually create a whole new creature and change people (even if it's not allowed). But can they create (and attach) missing body parts? I'm 90% sure they can Shape a -new- functioning pair of eyes on the top of one's blind eyes (since the Barzites shape bulging muscles on their Guardians and turn them to hulking brutes) but what about a legal procedure that wouldn't turn a blind person to a multi-eyed freak?

I will continue with:

Kyshaaks, Wingbolts, Wartralls. They're introduced in GF4 and aside of a line or two here and there, we get little info on them. Sure, a war trall is a bigger Alpha that throws rocks. A Kyshaak is... ? what? Wingbolts are probably modified Vlish (similar to Gazers) but is there any confirmation on that?

Exlpoding Kyshaaks make me think they are a powered up version of the Roamer.

EDIT: GF5 screens and GF4 screens say that Kyshaaks come from reptiles and Fyoras and Wingbolts from Artillas.

And another one:

Servant minds. Fascinating pieces of Shaping. Who needs a computer when you can Shape one? OK, the Shapers haven't shaped creations that can mass produce items like a factory could, so no industrial revolution. But the servant minds could probably be as good as the computers of the 60s or something in making calculations and storing data. And they would present a similar risk if competing Shapers (I'm looking at you Rawal) sent an Agent lackey to interrogate and steal data from them.

In any case, mainframes that need nutrients instead of power to work aside...

Servant minds are occasionally given the task to control simple creations, I think. The servant mind in the school of GF3 has some control over the turrets and many servant minds control doors. A few are in control of other defenses, even a few creations. Yet, Alwan's control cores with servant minds directing creations in battle, are controversial and near-illegal I believe. So there's a line somewhere but it is blurry.

The question here is "What's the (blurry) line on what a Servant mind can and cannot control legally?"

EDIT:

What about Shaper ranks?

I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor

Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply.

I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters.

There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper.

The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective.

I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers.

My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

EDIT2: Living tools.

How non-Shapers use them? I bet that's somewhere in GF1.

For Batons, we know that when their tail is pressed, they shoot a thorn. But living tools do more complicated jobs than "fire!" They have to twist their tentacles in specific ways etc. A Shaper could just control the tool and tell it what to do, direct it on what to do. An outsider?  

EDIT3: Disruption damage and wands.

Do Gazers even have that luck bonus? Cause they're also said to have +20 intelligence in order to NOT run out of energy...

And the reason I'' stop at magic 8 is because of the soft cap: I would hate to waste 7 or so skill points to NOT get anything out of it. So I was thinking to boost it to 10-11 with items.

Yeah, initiative frankly doesn't concern me. I don't consider it crucial. Sure, it's nice, but not a dealmaker. (For me, I realize some of you will disagree)

Do Rots still cause acid (or poison, I forget; very rarely used them) on hit? Cause if they do and they deal a lot of damage with physicals, I may go for them. The Drakon you present still seems underwhelming.

But frankly, I'll probably go for Gazers cause I like them and Rots because they add variety to my attack routine; little to do with damage and actual power.

I am playing on easy; sure, not strategically and avoiding parts I find non-enjoyable, but still I believe I can do everything with 1 gazer, 1 more tier 4 and 4 high level Vlish.

Nice!

If I may ask, the recipes work similar to my warrior mod, you have to find them for the option to come up, or, similar to Gamerman's mod, you just need to find them to figure the items needed etc and if you find them (or if they're in the spoilers or somewhere else) you can have the items crafted as soon as you show up?

Leaving all those aside for a moment, unless Drakons are much higher level than the rest, the strength bonus of the Rot and the ability to spam kill at high levels of the Gazers seems to place them above Drakons as far as player creations go.

Also, don't take this wrong but similar to the advice you give me on my posting habbits, I also have a suggestion.

Perhaps you should try to make your posts seem less aggressive. TheKian did some tests that you don't find useful but instead leading to wrong conclusions.

However, he did them on his own free time. I understand your frustration, but the above post does seem too accusatory, at least to me. He was trying to help, and probably didn't remember that enemy levels may change. It's not the end of the world.

Apologies... I'll be adding a bit more content. It will be ready in the weekend, at the latest.

3 hours ago, TheKian said:

Experimentally, (for example, in Gazak-Uss, or with my own creations), the drakon always attacks first (again, regardless of whether it is my creation or an enemy), followed by the rothgroth and then gazer.

 

I don't know about absurd strength for rotghroths, but they do hit ridiculously hard (~240 per swing, which is a lot in G2).

 

 

Also, Slarty, from the Geneforge 2 scenario file...

Gazers: //cr_statistic 1 = 20;     cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     cr_statistic 22 = 10; (+25 int, +3 parry, +10 luck, other stats commented out)

Drakons: //cr_statistic 0 = 22;     //cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 6 = 8;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     //cr_statistic 22 = 10;  (+8 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)
Rotghroths: cr_statistic 0 = 22;     cr_statistic 1 = 22;     cr_statistic 6 = 6;     cr_statistic 7 = 3; (+22 str, +22 dex, +6 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)

 

It's obvious immediately that the Drakon has superior quick action to the rotghroth. However, the rotghroth also happens to have an insane level of base dexterity. The question here is (also, luck isn't likely to have as significant an impact on initiative as quick action) what exactly is the base dexterity of the Drakon. It would seem to theoretically be 1, since it imports the base creature. However, since, experimentally, the drakon does have superior initiative to the rotghroth, its base dexterity must be fairly close.

Dex usually is level/2

Ahh... the new zone is a major part of the mod. Have you managed to see it?

Check my edit in the previous post... And keep a mind open for even more allies in the final battle.

You don't get just two party members. You can go with full soldiers.

If they are indeed close to war-trall and not like half a wartrall, I need to tone them down... Except if you mean after you level them up they come close to a freshly minted war-trall.

Kayar's Spire if you get your allies and tell your lieutenants to weaken the base should be easy to the point of those non-party soldiers being redundant. Also keep in mind, the power of the defenders scales partially with party size and partially with your own power (not just level; your combat abilities).

As a note, she's not a sorceress, she's an incantatrix. She can't shape, hasn't used canisters and hasn't use the geneforge.

As for the Spire (while the other option is still viable) I was going for the feeling "The Rebellion is at your door and we will trash and crash the place"

Before you go to Endgame:

Have you finished the questline of the Fort? There's a huge reward in the end if you're loyal to Greta. Including of course,

Also... the mod ends in the endgame.  While I boosted the Drakons there, you should have no problem steamrolling them.

And research notes and shaper equipment also increase the Combat effectiveness if given at the right time to the right NPC.

Also: doing a specific quest and then giving Shaper equipment and notes to the right NPC, will lead to your character being able to Shape more powerful creations while at the base.

Ohhh... right.

In Drypeak mines? I don't remember that, except veeery foggily.

Then why have a servile act as a servant mind? Strange.

I'm not reading the spoiler since I haven't found the way to open the $%#^! gate yet. Probably have missed a lever somewhere in that huge maze.

I do give my vlish 2 intelligence, like all my creations. Of course, by now all my creations are Vlish and a Cryora.

Here's another perhaps needlessly long post... It has some observations of mine about the story.

I went to the Crystal mines near the Awakened. I found a Spawner (as expected) but there was no text about it.
After several in-and-out to heal, I found a Taker Drayk that is completely unharmed by the magic of the place that causes me to evacuate every minute or so.
After calling me a fool and telling me to go see Syros in Zhass-Uss so that he can toy with me, it told me he doesn't know why it is unharmed by the air and told me it placed the Spawner here to attack the Awakened.

Why difference of opinion on what to do once the Shapers come is a reason for war is beyond me. The Takers think (rightly) that the Awakened will be attacked by the Shapers. So... why start a war with them? If they dislike them as much as the Shapers (strange in itself), why waste effort to attack them? The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.
For all I've found the different factions fascinating, I still haven't figured out why their differences had to lead to war? OK, Barzites were obviously horrendous. But Takers and Awakened? I can understand animosity but spending resources to put up monsters to kill the serviles cause they have a different view on the Shapers?
I guess that one goes back to GF1...

Following that, a tough decision (that was kinda made for me).
In a place called Darian's refuge, there's a servile that misses the oppressive hand of the Barzites. He is sad and wants to spend his life as a self-aware living baton.

But it's his choice. Freedom kinda comes with the freedom to choose what I don't like.

I was at an impasse: Should I respect his choice and lead him back to the evilest faction (that I plan to go full-Litalia on later), respecting his choice?
Should I leave him there, "free" but unhappy not respecting his choice? But alive since I will kill the Barzites anyway?
And then he said something that clearly showed me the path: He told me that my party is full so I would have to get rid of a vlish.
Nooooope.
Theeeere you stay buddy. Your choice is respectable, but I will not handicap myself so you can return to your master.

Lack of Servant minds:
I saw a servile in the way to Phariton (which I am told is a mad Shaper, and people the Barzites are calling mad are bound to be interesting). That servile is frankly a servant mind with legs.
Haven't seen any servant minds in GF2.
As a note, I have seen a great many pylons shooting magic at me. With 7 creations that become active the moment I go to battle mode, this place is a nightmare.

Learned Darian
That's a woman that said things to the Shaper that visited Sucia hoping it would lead to less suffering for the Serviles, and she acknowledges it didn't. She thinks this time it may lead to less suffering.
She doesn't know that the world will burn, but realizes it is very possible: "Power to remake the world, or burn it". It will be both Darian; remake the world from the ashes of burned cities. And she's right about the Takers; they are correct on their view that Shapers would not accept free creations without being crushed and that their power will prove catastrophically dangerous.
Heartbreaking insight.

This game makes me sad...

EDIT:

For those that didn't make the connection... my avatar photo is now the Takers flag (I will still probably ally with the Awakened, but that's a very nice, rebel-ly flag).

Thankfully it was not that. By fixing a bug TheKian has found, I introduced another. It has been fixed.

However, what you say is of great interest since I'll start designing zones for my total conversion mod, and I was planning to cram a ton of things near the entrance.

Could you please elaborate a bit more? What do you mean "not enough room" near the zone entrance? Creations? Buildings? Items?

A LOT of spelling mistakes?

The Mera Aegis is a minor artifact that I put there because, frankly, at about that level I needed more spellcraft so my blessings would hold for some time.

Gazers have... luck bonus? LoL. That's a new saying then. "That guy won the lottery. He has a Gazer's luck!" and then I'll bask on the weird looks of people not understanding what I say.

I think there's a soft cap in Shaping 10, right? I assumed I would get a few points that way. I will buy magic the level after the next but I'm not sure it'll see much use. I already have a full roaster. I'll eventually drop my servile follower to get a Gazer, and perhaps a Vlish if I can afford a 2nd Gazer (or I want a rot). But more or less I expect to keep most of my current creations to the bitter end.

And I mostly did. I have magic at 7 and I have found an item that on top of the artifact that nice lady gave me, another one that gives me a +2 to fire Shaping. So While I have bought 1-2 Fire Shaping (it starts at 2, magic starts at 1), I bought so far 5 points in magic shaping. My Cryoa is from the start of the game.

As for variety... resistances of enemies don't seem to be high in this game. I can deal a lot of magic damage to Vlish (and I haven't managed to land a blow to a gazer to see how magic resistant they are...). Cold affects specters (they were near immune in GF5) very well.

So, I am not sure variety is as important.

Thinking of it, Horrorshiver at level 28 costs me ~40 essence more than my Vlish but they have suprassed him in hit chance, despite being 6 levels lower!

Fire creations: What I mean is that I expected with magic Shaping at 7-8 and Fire at 6 with items, Drakons would be well worth it. Well, Gazers are underwhelming so I am not that hopeful.

Do creations have a level cap? My Vlish are going strong at 23rd level so far.

Boosting creations: I haven't done it at the time, since I'm saving my essence to build the good stuff later. I am just wondering if the "good stuff" is actually good stuff.

I plan to have 70-80 essence "Free" to cast spells at the late game. If I have filled my roaster with my end-game creations, I may start boosting the Vlish since boosts are insanely cheap for them.

What do you think?

Yes... but since Slarty has done tests, charts and all, I prefer to defer to his wisdom on the matter since testing that would be tedious and unless I test the creations against several different enemies, it would be inconclusive. It is possible to do it, but there are veterans here. Threads about balance etc. Other pairs of eyes to tell me I forgot something.

Just a few minutes ago, you stepped in and said "Remember; you need 5AP to attack which means just 3AP to move to the enemy" which I had forgot.

I am not being lazy and difficult here; I am just saying that I play this game to save the awakened relax and enjoy. Running 1h tests that would have be go back and forth in the scripts is not exactly my favorite part. I do it for like an hour per day already for a new GF5 mod that I started working on.

Oh, right... I forgot that as melee they would have to be close to the enemy. I have only ranged attackers in my party.

LEVELING CREATIONS and New Creations:

(Slarty, I could use your experience and insight here buddy. I will write things like "X is like Y" because that's the way I write, but please, see it as the "I think that X is like Y, although I am not sure hence the whole post" that it really is. You have done the math, the tests and all. I hope the way I write won't turn you away here.)

I did the following in Zhass-Uss. There's a door that if you open, a lot of people become angry with you. I Bypassed Syros, letting him deal with my servile friend that follows me (it was a test! I didn't threw his life away in my "main" playthrough. I loaded after it.) and closed the door before Syros pet Gazers started coming through. Then I dealt with two golems (they are very underwhelming compared to GF5 ones) and opened another door. Canister of Gazer! Yaaay!

Made a Gazer. Cost me 125 essence + extra for int.

I remind you all that my Vlish cost 20 essence total.

The Gazer was level 32 or something with 440 hp. Costs more essence as my 3 Vlish and Horrorshiver (terror Vlish) combined. The Gazer's attacks have a better chance to hit, but not that better and although a hit from the gazer hurts, it's as much damage as 3 out of my 4 Vlish pull.  My Vlish combined though have more hp, and having 4 attacks instead of 1 (with the stunning those attacks have) is much better.

At the time of this writing, it would be preferable if I sacrificed Horrorshiver (my terror Vlish which I keep because of his level 28 since he has a better chance to land blows) to get a Gazer. But by the time I will actually get the Gazers probably in like 5+ levels since I will start exploring the rest of the zones now (I had rushed to meet the leaders), Horrorshiver would be at the level the Gazer would be, and while dealing like 1/2 the damage and having 2/3 of the Gazer hp... he would cost like 1/3 of the essence!

From what I see in this game, the "difference" between the various creations seems to be the smaller from the 4 games I've seen (GF5 had the biggest difference).

I made a test and created a Drayk and a Vlish. The vlish costs 20 essence and is level 20, while the Drayk costs 75 essence and is level 25.

Yes, I have "invested" more in Magic Shaping (having 7 instead of 5) and Vlish (3 instead of 2). But two of my Vlish would blow the Drayk out of the water for less essence.

Of course... this may only seem so for Vlish which are not exactly balanced.

To cut to the chase:

Is it even worth to spend 5000+ coins on better creation types? The Drayks have so far been a huge waste of money; huge. Perhaps cryodrayks could redeem that but it remains to be seen.

Should I consider buying 2 levels of Glaahk when I can cough up the huge amount of money? Or by the time I get the money (I have like 500 coins now; I don't pick up a lot of stuff to sell) my Vlish (ranged Glaahks in the game) would be hilariously more powerful, and cheaper?

Battle Alphas were also a waste of money... What about Rots? Drakons? (Gazers I will get anyway cause I like gazers; power is not the only thing that counts)

There was such a severe bug in Bonepeak and I missed it?

Probably slipped in when I corrected a bug theKian found.

Gamerman, thanks man.

EDIT: Ehhh... I don't have that error.  For me, it works like a charm. No missing brackets.

Also, there should not be an extra bracket there.

Could you do me a big favor please? Could you check with the script I will send you for bonepeak? It's the original I have in my computer (and the mod) and works for me.

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EDIT: Alright! I got one of the artifact shields. Gotta say, it's pretty impressive. More armor than a Shaped Shield, bonus to Spellcraft and Parry, Energy and Poison Resistance bonuses... that's pretty good. Here's a hint... if you're a kleptomaniac, the major material you need for this shield is not hard to find.  
 

 

That is not a problem for me.  

Which shield is that? Mera Aegis? That is... the minor artifact shield. The two big ones are "Finality" and "Guardian's Bulwark".

The Mera Aegis is a good example of why this mod is for Guardians\Warriors. An agent\infiltrator\sorceress would not trade that shield for either the Finality or Guardian's Bulwark; this one would feel a major artifact for her.

Frankly, with magic being more useful, most other classes except shocktrooper would find more use out of this early-on shield than the later-on shields.

THE MOD IS OUT The mod is being beta-tested.

TheKian has kindly betatested parts of it, and I have gone through it. I would kindly ask the first persons to download and play this mod to give feedback (but avoid spoilers  ).