alhoon

Thinking more about the previous one, it should be possible, without tremendous effort to add a "new" creation that is a bigger graphical version of another creation. I.e. the big drakons of the Awakened in the something-of-winds. 
I.e. you could have Learned-something (awakened boss) send a letter or something to the guys there and get them to shape for you a huge drakon and assign him to you, and with the right scrips here and there, the drakon could even say his thing, say when facing the Takers or something. 

Since adding a creation in the game is too much effort, your best bet, without huge effort, would be to have them give you a boosted-up creation. 

Reward-wise, if you want artifacts etc, it's much easier. You could make an item as imba as you like in the scripts and then insert it as a reward in the game at the end of a quest chain. Say, you could have the Banite guys ask you to steal important staff from the Awakened, then from lying Zakary the Deceiver, bring them a ton of essence pods and staff and Zaaaaaaap the item you've scripted so that you could get it as a reward from text. 

1 hour ago, Aleister said:

Re-Doing a play through of Geneforge 2 and I'm wondering if anyone can help me with mods/cheats that make the game feel less clunky such as:

->  Ways to play around with scripts or cheat codes to add money (none I've tried work) 

-> changing the thing where it takes 5AP to be able to attack etc. 

-> Graphic mods?

-> And overall anything else I can use to make the game extra fun that hasn't already been linked in the strategy peripheral.

Greatly appreciate any help! 

 

 

1) Yes, that is easy. I don't have time right now, but it is very easy to do so. 

2) That can't be changed I think, what I did in geneforge 3 was to give extra APs to melee creations so they could move further and attack. It is probably possible in GF2 too.

3) The graphic mod I used is... somewhere in the site. However it made it very hard to spot a certain lever or two. Use with care.

4) Depends on what you mean by "fun". If you mean adding extra zones, that's waaaay too much work. If you mean adding text-based quests or descriptions that end up giving you stuff, then it is possible and quite easy. If you mean mods on the bosses to make them act differently or have more Zap powers etc, that is possible but it takes more effort. If you mean mods that try to bypass the bug with the strength-to-creations items that is also possible. If you mean adding more items that do stuff, it is possible but takes some effort. 

It is probably possible to have quests to add different people in your party, like those serviles you get etc. I.e. you could make a quest chain or something to get say the Barzites to give you a drakon or Rotdhizon for your party from those that sit around in their base - essence free. 
It is also very easy to modify the level of someone in a zone, so effectively you could go to Tuldaric, have a text-based quest chain, have him ZAAAAAAP to power a servile dude to say level 30 with bonus hit points and attacks and then assign him to you. 
It may also be possible to have those guys speak like Greta and Alwan do in GF3, but I haven't tested that. 

What... is that the locked level that Litalia got the key? 

25 minutes ago, benzidrine said:

GF5 is in the middle of gigantic conflict that is tearing apart the world. I remember the GF2 ending being that you are imprisoned by shapers then get freed in a prisoner exchange and spend the rest of your life fighting shapers in a conflict where neither side can progress. I meant co-exist as in peaceful co-existence.

Well, with both sides being able to spam soldiers at a moment's notice, soldiers that haven't been lovingly raised by parents for 15-20 years etc, tends to me this hard. I would frankly think the Trakovites are right in this regard: As long as you have Shaping, you will have conflict simply because casualties don't matter. And if you start shaping shapers like the rebellion? heh. Then it won't matter if Shapers die. You can always create more. 
The Monarch kinda got on this train hard. Why have anything else, if you can make loyal servants and hordes of non-hostile soldiers? Simply kill everything and remake the world as you like it. 

20 hours ago, TheKian said:

I would also like to point out that giving up a ninth level spell slot (that would otherwise contain, say, meteor swarm) for a creation cannot be compared properly in terms of damage, simply because the creations are permanent, and are attacking each round. Meanwhile, the spell is only cast once for not just the entire battle, but until the end of your next long rest. Just saying.

Yes, but there are ways to balance that out. The suggestion is to balance out a creature for 3-4 rounds of battle. Sure, your creation would be attacking in the previous battles too, but then it would get wounded in the big fight, so it comes down to the same thing... theoretically. 
But yes, it is not the same thing. But it is not a bad way to balance it out... as long as the creation doesn't have large area attacks!!!! If you create a drayk and give it a breath weapon that is a cone of 30 ft or something, and the Drayk's breath does some serious damage, then you're off the chart. As simple as that. 

"That for creations to stand any chance against the shapers it would require extreme measures and that living side by side was essentially impossible because free creations could not co exist with a nation of enslaved creations. " 
And yet, GF5 showed us that this wasn't the case. To a degree, even the Awakened GF2 ending did just that for at least some years. 

It is exactly that: In some parts of the Shaper Empire, a few buildings (mainly forts) remain and many people are afraid to mention their history. The buildings in the Shaper cities are mostly constructions of the Shapers or a blend of Shaper-local culture except castles where they often kept good ones they conquered. When you visit places with ghosts etc we are told those days are not taught. In Mera-Tev the local language is all but lost. Storm Plains have been tamed. Derra Reaches is the only place where the locals haven't been strongly assimilated as they are comparatively new additions (or, well, not really additions as the Shapers ignore the desert people). Considering the Shapers are around there for just a few centuries that was quite fast assimilation. Many conquered peoples under other empires usually kept their identity and language for centuries. For example, the Safavids (Persian dynasty) showed up a millennium after the Sassanids (previous Persian dynasty) have been conquered. Many Indian states kept their identity and culture despite being conquered by Turkic conquerors (Timur) and ruled by his successors and successor states + Britain. 

From what we have been shown in the game, at least in my opinion, it is clear that Shapers were a despotic, authoritarian magocracy that viewed very bad anything they perceived as challenge to their right-to-rule, including cultural identity, magic (restrictions on not-shaping magic too) and slightly diverging opinions. However, they had the insane power to spam forces for ever and the ability to create food from nothing (shape ornks) plus workers to take care of modified crops and construction (serviles).

As such, resistance against them was futile. They had endless manpower to support their armies and industries. Aside of that they were also very powerful mages in the Pew-Pew-Boom-boom staff too; a shaper without creations is no pushover. You would either bow down and follow their commands or be crushed and annihilated. That seems to be the Shaper (and Drakon) imperialism.

Hence, I strongly support the rebels, the human side. Greta - Astoria side. 

12 hours ago, earanhart said:

 

I wonder, if the Rebellion had happened without any rebel Shapers, if canisters could not give the ability to Shape, how would the Council have acted? I imagine that at least two of them would have been "Wait, what? Umm, okay. Give us back all of our serviles and ornks. You can buy batons from us if you really want." There would be some war, but at a certain point the Shapers would ask if it was really a worthwhile war. Killing the people who would be paying your taxes. We do know they conquered most of Terrestria through war, but that was centuries ago. Even the "Recently settled" lands have been under Shaper control for long enough that the locals say "centuries ago." And they stopped at some point, because Drypeak Mountains are a "Distant colony."

We have the answer to that. They would brutally wipe out opposition. Di-something, the shaper of Harmony is the exception. 
It is stated in the opening intro texts. It is also mentioned in the later games when they mention "the great rebellion" won't be simply erased from history like other rebellions that the shapers prohibit even discussion of. We also see a taste with the Trakovites (even the peaceful ones) being locked in cages and left to starve to death or other horrible ways of execution not for rebelling (because they didn't till GF5), but simply questioning the wisdom of Shapers. The locals in those settled islands are, as we learn in the games, strongly encouraged to abandon their culture and forget their history. 

The Shapers don't ask for taxes and trade. They take what they want. They don't care much about casualties. What is the worth of a life when you can make more? Soldiers died? Make more battle creations. Farmers, crafters died? Make more serviles. It is also mentioned in the games when you're presented with "the way a Shaper looks at the world" with people as background noise. I think it's in GF4 and GF2. 
The difference between the Drakons and the Shapers is that the Drakons shape themselves too and are less oppressive to creations (while the vast majority of them also think they are above the "lesser races"). 

Best of luck to you and glad to be of service. 

As for our different perspective, it is what it is. I am leaning more towards the "A Shaper is an army" to be sincere and a more complicated and tweeky system. I want smart players that micromanage upgrades and stuff to make good and imba creations like flying snakes that shoot poison darts. 

Still, I have to say this: from my (somewhat limited experience) having a lot of creations doesn't overshadow the other players.
When I tried to do something similar, the Shaper herself was underwhelming. Yes, she had a group of creations but by herself she was worse than the rest of characters. And when I did this, I wasn't taking the Shaper's actions for control the creations. 
If your fighter hires 2-3 CR3 veterans to come with him, does the fighter himself overshadow the other players? Because that was what it felt like in my experience. My answer to that would be "nope". Consider that instead of money (which for the levels you're mentioning is not a problem) would take spell slots and actions.

BBetas if memory serves were like bumped up alphas with nothing extra. I tried to use them in GF4 and they were very disappointing. Same for GF5. Perhaps they have more quick action to make a 2nd attack more often or something but in general they seemed like Alphas with more levels: Melee meat-shields that were not very good or memorable, themselves like very powered up thands but I expected something from a 3rd tier creation. Battle Gamas, that we couldn't make, had that scythe attack that hit everyone around them. 

240 damage for a single target in a spell with 4 40-ft radius spheres is a lot more than single-target. Working with averages because I am more comfortable with them, it's 140 damage to a lot of people with 70 damage to few people. Usually, you will deal 300-400 damage with this spell to enemies you actually care about (sure, you would cook a lot of 25 hp minimums that are around, but they wouldn't really be a problem anyway)
As mentioned, a good rule of a thumb is to assume the battle will go on for 3-4 rounds. Since we're talking several people involved, let's assume 4-5 rounds. So the army should reliably do ~80 damage per round on average to be equal to a meteor swarm spell. That ~80 damage should include miss chances. Assuming 1/3 attacks would miss, we're at ~120 damage on average.

However that doesn't take into the equation the "support" these things give. I.e. enemies that attack them instead of the PCs or simply the ability to hide behind them etc.

So I would say ... different functionality. An army worth as much as that 9th level spell would probably need ~300 hp between them and deak 70-80 damage on average (so that they would actually deal about 50 damage). So 4 battle betas with ~75 hp each that have two attacks with each attack dealing 1d8+5 damage, would be IMO comparable to meteor swarm.

And again: That takes into the equation an army of creations compared to the single most powerful damage spell.  Simply put, I don't think Meteor Swarm is a good comparison as it's huge area makes it unyieldy and they offset this with a large damage. Meteor swarm is an army killer. I believe there are more fair spells to compare your army of creations with.  

But if mid-tier creations like battle Betas are 9th lvl spell, what about Kyshaaks, War tralls, Rotdhizons etc? 

On 4/17/2019 at 7:43 PM, earanhart said:

Alhoons method with having drafted up a few different subclasses is a different answer to this problem than my system, and it comes from a different theory of gamecrafting than I do. At a glance it sounds functional. but also sounds like more effort to implement than mine, 

Yeap. One of the main reasons I did what I did, was to have a complex, dynamic system. 
Another reason is... Guardians are better in Shaping than Agents but they suck at magic. Agents are better spellcasters than Shapers but they suck at Shaping. Locking it down by spell level means that a "fighter Shaper" would have to be a good spellcaster. With your system, for the Guardian to be able to have access to battle Beta, the Fighter would have to be able to cast 9th lvl spells... and he could decide to not have a battle beta. 
Of course, you could limit his "spellcasting" to Shaping spells from a list etc. I am not saying there are no work arounds. 

In the end as we both agreed, what works best for the group to have fun, works best.
Frankly, on my table bringing 12 more NPCs (which means a balanced battle would have a lot more enemies on the other side) requires special rules to deal with this stuff quickly. You may want to look at something like that too because from my experience once Shaping enters the party, the numbers of combatants start to raise very quickly. 

Battle Beta would be a 9th lvl spell? Isn't that insanely advanced? Your world, your rules, but IMO that's in the very end of the spectrum. I have seen very few campaigns that reached beyond 10-11th lvl. My usual campaigns go for 40-50 sessions and reach 10-12th lvl or something.

Regardless, even with blocking slots, in my opinion Creations will still not be balanced. Even if you manage to find the razor's edge of making Battle Beta powerful enough to compete with Meteor Swarm (which is tougher than it sounds) for a party of 4 people, it will be an uphill battle for the rest of the creations. And you have to take into account the reduced versatility from losing the slots. However, all these calculations would grow out of sync when the party grows from 4 to 10 PCs and creations as a single extra won't be balanced for a party of that size.
I am not saying you shouldn't do it; your table your rules. I just don't think there'll ever be a way to make this balanced.  

I think in GF4 it is a requirement for an increased reward, but I am not sure. I have heard people say (but never confirmed it) that luck is supposed to affect drop chances and the money you get from killing baddies. 

We don't have "prestige classes" in D&D next. It is more of a class specialization. 
The way I do it, is that there's a Shaper subclass for sorcerers and wizards, an Agent subclass for wizards and a Warrior Subclass for fighters. I also use a very different spell list than the traditional wizards. In fact I use a modified druid spell list. Shaping comes outside the spellcasting. Each shaper depending on whether he or she is Shaper \ Agent \ Warrior have a different potential for creating creations and adding modifications to them, similar to essence.

More than one Shaper in the party and it clugs down significantly during combat. Although, you can have players run one of the Creations of the Shaper each along with their character so they don't have to wait for long with nothing to do.

Is it balanced? Nah, not really. When one character has control over 3-4 serious beasties, there's no notion of balance anyway and the Shapers have their "default" class abilities and spells anyway. 
Is it fun? Yes. Which is the purpose of the game.  

Banish affliction should do it, I think. 

Well, the way I am doing it in my games is that Shaping is a subclass. Instead of the various bonuses evokers, diviners etc take, the Shaper gets "essence points" he or she can use on creations.

Yeah, but can be done anyway with manipulating the datasets from the txt and image files

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 6:35 PM, gosho said:

Hi alhoon thanks for your great job!!

 

Can you up load the blade of geneforge editor? Does it work with geneforge 1

Sorry for the delayed answer. I can't upload the files from here but perhaps theKian can. However, as mentioned it doesn't work for geneforge 1.

Also, to be clear, the map editor allows you to make actual changes in the zone (or even add zones) not cosmetic effects. I.e. the map editor would allow you to add a new building in a map, not make building walls brighter or something.

Sea caves have some important loot. Go for it, even if it means having to do a bit of an effort. I found it worth it.

Unfortunately, those can't be edited easily. I think the costs are "locked". You can make a cheaper creation better though. 

PS. Generally, it is advised to not post in very old threads.

I think intelligence in the game that starts at 1 doesn't mean that a person is smart or foolish. 

Remember: A non-sentient rogue Fyora of level 6 would have int 3. Does that mean that a Fyora is smarter than the player character at start? I don't think so. I think it's just meant for mechanical reasons to give you your essence and spell energy. 

Emmm... none other than load function.

Toroth is really not "necessary". He is necessary only if you want to blow up that captain and complete the quest mechanics-way.

Also, even if you fail that quest, Greta will still send you new orders later. She will be angry and your reputation with her will take a hit. Your end-of-the-mod rewards will be lower. She will be more reluctant to help you in the future. But... having somewhat less than full reputation with Greta may not be that bad for future quest options. If you are 100% Greta, the Drakons start to dislike you.

Remember that in many GF games, the extra strength from items on creations, while it shows up in their stats doesn't work. I don't know if it is version-specific or only for steam version PC version GForge. 

Those include the Trakovites though 😛