alhoon

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Jeff takes about 5 months to do beta testing of a game, so that would mean starting in early September. He usually has part of the game that he is still filling in items at this point so he seems to be on track for a release at the end of January 2021. He's already done the dialogue heavy zones except probably the Geneforge and a few other zones so it should take less time for the next 30 ones that are mostly combat.

And here I was thinking the "mostly combat, empty zones" are a thing of the past and that every zone will have a mini-story or something, instead of being a filler "you go from A to B, but here's a trainer and a canister"... 

I got an email about the July update! 

First thing I noticed, about Glaahks: 

"Glaahks are terrifying magical creations. From a distance, they support their allies with magical fields that bless and curse. Up close, they paralyze their foes, leaving them helpless. Beware." 

😕

Wait, what? Since  when could  they do that? That's Vlish territory. 

Also, do ALL magic creations start from the Artila and go from there? It seems so. 

Now, of Jeff talking about GF1: 

"Original Geneforge had very few terrain types and we weren’t used to creating huge quest lines and complicated game environments. A lot of the sections were really plain, and a lot of storylines were patchy and incomplete. "  
That's true and one of the reasons I stayed out of GF1. 
While GF2 was interesting and had nice things, I started the games in GF4, then went to GF5, then to GF3 and finally to GF2. 
While I liked GF2, it was indeed "simpler" than GF4-5. I am glad that Jeff feels comfortable to increase the complexity. 

And the not-so-good news: 

"We are going through every location, every item, and every bit of dialogue. Editing. Rebalancing. We are reworking the text to make it read better (which mainly involves removing a lot of unnecessary words). All quest and faction dialogue has been expanded, adding more lore and useful information. "

yeah, I am conflicted about that. While Jeff says they're adding more lore and "useful" information, I am not sure that both I and the developer see eye to eye on what "useful" information is. For me, a lot of things are useful and interesting information. 
After all, I come from the Wheel of Time series, where there would be half a page to describe a dress or a fireplace or a ceramic figurine etc. That certainly doesn't seem to be Jeff's style. So, words like "Servile_13 smells like a wet dog, showing his fellows don't take good care of him" is not unnecessary words for me. It is better (albeit longer than) "Servile_13 smells bad". 

"We are still hoping for Geneforge to be ready by the end of January, 2021."

Good. But that seems to be slowly etching further into "wishful thinking" territory. 

And the best news: 

"the angry, rebellious Taker faction from the original game has had its dialogue doubled.  "

Yeaaaaaaaazzz!!!!

(PS, my avatar is the Taker flag from GF2)

So... theKian, if I understand you correctly, you argue that "Shaping, like cloning creates a basic something that is then affected by life experiences and nurture growing to be different". 

I.e. that a every Cryoa level 15 made by Bob the Shaper would be the same, a clone of a "pattern learned" by the Shaper (through training or canisters), correct? 

I would respectfully disagree. A 15th lvl Cryoa made by Bob the Shaper with 5 intelligence is inherently different than a 15th lvl cryoa made by Bob the Shaper with 5 str. One is smarter, the other is stronger. And this is directly built in their genes, unlike the "free" upgrades as they grow more experienced and train etc. As such, they are not truly clones but mutated beasts that are sometimes the same but sometimes different. 
And then, there's the issue that if Bob the Shaper dons his belt of +4 to Fire Creations, his Cryoa would be smarter, more cunning, more agile and more durable than what he could make without that belt. 

All in all, Shaping may resemble genetic engineering but it is a magic, supernatural process that doesn't follow the laws and rules of our world. (<=== In my opinion)

6 hours ago, The Almighty Doer of Stuff said:

I think the whole original point of this discussion was whether or not upgrading a creation was feasibly possible within game lore for roleplaying purposes, not whether it actually is shown to happen. As you stated, Slarty, although the idea has no real evidence behind it, the concept is not clearly ruled out through any available evidence either, making that style of Geneforge roleplaying valid. There's no evidence that recreating an old creation in a new body is impossible or even difficult, just that it's not indicated. Would you say that's been established?

I would disagree. There is strong evidence that it is nearly impossible. As mentioned in GF5, there's a whole quest about a brain in an ornk and how complicated it was. 

So... I shouldn't have blown 1000+ on spells, got it. Good think I reloaded.  

Man, that game needs a guide. I would be completely lost without you guys. 

TM Paladin, thanks.  I was running from some ogres to go to that tower of the eeeevil Shapers mages that Shaped made the fungi and all... only to find out I can barely afford 1-2 spells. Load-game, back in the North. Are you sure it was just 8440 for a career mage? The spells I saw were very expensive. 
That boat set me back. 😞 I also bought a sword because I haven't thought of the use-fight-mode "wealth redistribution" scheme. I stole another one in front of the shopkeeper, because I guessed that I can get away with stealing 1-2 items.  

The Trainers? 1200 gp for quick action, 1100 for acrobatics. 4x1200 = 4800 + 4400 for acrobatics. Perhaps I am a bit off so let's say 8500. 
I would wear my fingers raw if I tried to "Iampoor" even half of that and I don't have 4500 anyway. I simply will do without quick action. 

Is there perhaps an equivalent of Canisters books that train you like in GF2? Books that don't ask 1000+ to give you a not-that-good skill? 
EDIT: If I may ask, where can I find this Hrror person that would soon start bleeding me dry?  
EDIT2: And that Etheridge person for tool use?

What about the "wandering monsters"? Are they limited? What I mean is that if I escape an encounter because I have some Cave Lore, would I lose money? Or they respawn? If they respawn... is actually any ones that are worth it? Because so far I have got like 20-40 gold from such encounters if I am lucky. 

Those boards with jobs @TriRodent mentioned, there are some in this game too, do these jobs "respawn"? 

I follow what the NPCs tell me so far to find "proper for my level" areas. If there's a warning "Danger, nobody returned from this path!" I don't go there. If people tell me "for amateurs, perhaps try the caverns here" I go there. 

1 hour ago, TriRodent said:

Open up the character screen & the hp/mana info is listed up near their picture

I was asking about the NPCs. I  wanted to check how many hp the guards have etc, like we did in GF. 

Wealth redistribution and fighting income inequality was of course  my main reason for wanting a character  to go around alone and what you said with the fight mode is what I need. You all say that money is a "little tight" but with 4 characters I really have to focus. I thought to buy the first couple of points for quick action for all my 4 chars. That is, simply put impossible. 
Money is not "a little tight", money is very scarce. I barely could afford to buy a boat and now I regret it. 

OK, how about these, that are maybe different because of the engine change:

- How can  I close doors in this game? I can't seem to be able to click them. 

- How can I move around just a single character and leave the rest in a corner? 

- How can I see the hp of NPCs (right clicking on them has no effect) ?

2 hours ago, TM Paladin said:

Spellcraft does not act like an extra level of mage or priest spells.  It adds to the spellcasting damage/healing/duration multiplier

So, does it increase the effectiveness of daze or not? 

After a big absence from the game (sister's wedding, other things), I returned to it for the past couple of days. I see guides say that dual-weapon is the way to go and that archers suck. 

Well, I want Melee-Archer-Mage-Priest because that's what I like so even if it is suboptimal, I will go with it (normal difficulty). Then I saw some strange things with battle disciplines and such and got confused about how I should make my (already suboptimal) party. Someone here also told me that there's simply not enough cash... so I have to scour and sweep each place for valuables to sell to squeeze money. 🙁 With the new and improved graphics that's a problem since things don't show up as clearly (or I am not used to them) and I miss things. I also find it time consuming and grindy. 

So... a few newbie questions, considering I have a suboptimal party and little knowledge on how to progress my party plus an aversion to reading long guidelines plus an attitude of "That may be suboptimal but that's the way I like to play". 

- Dual wield: Do I need to invest a few points in the trait first? Or for my starting levels I can get away with increasing melee to get that battle discipline everyone talks about, that allows several attacks? 
- Since I play in normal difficulty but with suboptimal party (because of inexperience but also preference), do I need to use guides and stuff to find the best trainers at the right time? 
- Do I really need to sweep the floor for valuables? If I mod the item values to make all of them +100% more expensive (as I sell much more than I buy so far) can I get away with some "Oh, wait, let's open that barrel there to see if it has crystal... nope, trash. How about that box? Nope, blankets" tedious searching? Or there are items I need to buy so that x2 price for selling/buying will bite me in the rear end? 
- Does spellcraft works like in GF? I.e. if I invest there would it make my daze spell more powerful? 
- What are the "soft caps", if any? Divided by 2 after 10? 

Also, I think (not sure) that my stats increase a bit weirdly. Is that a glitch or they go up even if I don't put points on them? 

1 hour ago, Ess-Eschas said:

But that’s why we have spoiler tabs!
 

Well, in the endings of GF4... 

2 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

All I’m trying to do here is to argue for plausibility. I’m not trying to say anything concrete, or state that this is definitely what takes place in the game world to the exclusion of other ideas. The aim of my argument is simply to try and demonstrate that a Vinlie-style approach to the game – thinking of creations as evolving when they are absorbed and recreated as a new creature type – is possible within the confines of the game lore.

I realize that friend, I am just idly making conversation here. 

2 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

or that each new creation produced is always a blank slate

Well, in the ending of GF4, the finale, we're told that. But I won't give spoilers. 

24 minutes ago, TM Paladin said:

I think I agree with alhoon.

 

It's not hard to imagine what Ess is describing.  It's also technically not what the game mechanics or in-game descriptions say.  Maybe it's plausible that it could be done, and I certainly have no problem imagining that happening with a sequence of player creations for RP purposes... but that's very different from suggesting it is regularly possible in the game world itself.  There's nothing to indicate that.

Yeap. In GF5, with the smart Ornk (the quest I have not managed to do in three playthroughs but I read the scripts) we see that the Shapers are in the beginning of experimentation with "brain development". Lifecrafters botched it with the Gazers as we learn in GF4-5, to the point of being reluctant to use them. The servant minds the Shapers love to use are also very complex creations that the shapers cannot copy-paste so they make them long-lived as they are data-bases. If they could copy-paste brains, they would do so with Servant Minds, instead of sending us fixing them in nearly every GF game I have played. 
As such, we have strong indications that while "brain preservation" or "brain-copy" could be theoretically possible, it is not feasible at the state Shaping arts are at in the games. Perhaps with many Shapers researching that it could be possible in the future after years or decades of dedicated research, but we don't know that yet. 

What we do know is possible is to ... stick your conscience in a golem. Not the brain. Those demon thingies and Shades that are in some games. I have not done the Demon quest in GF2 but from the top of my mind, in GF5 there is a "Barred" place where this has happened (at the end of Astoria's chapter without giving many spoilers) + the "entity" in the prologue of GF5, where it zaps out from creation to creation. 

No brain transfer - pure magic. 

In GF3, Litalia leaves a copy of herself to troll the player here and there.  I think Khyrik does that too in some game. I think GF4. 

So, in short: Brain transplant hasn't happened, but illegally putting a soul in a golem with necromancy or undead shades or Shapers\Lifecrafters sending ephemeral copies of themselves to say stuff and troll people is totally possible. 
As such, I don't think the Shapers are in any great hurry to find ways to make brain transplants of creations. And it's not most Shapers would go that far for their Creations anyway. 
"The Creations are our Children" mantra is pure rubbish they tell themselves to feel better.  Down with the Hypocrites! All power to the Rebellion!  

Yeap, the first Drakons were Drayks that were geneforged to Drayks. In a way, Litalia in GF3 is not the same person as she was before the ton of canisters. Or the Bazrites, some of which went bonkers failing to adapt. Or the protagonist of GF4 that is Geneforged. 
Heck, the protagonist of GF5 lost his memories through the Geneforge and they have to be unlocked step by step. 

BUT. 
Those Drayks were never re-absorbed. Same with the Bazrites. Same with the GF4 or GF5 protagonist.
It is different to transmute the Fyora to a drayk, or to mutate yourself to get the ability to shoot fire or become smarter etc, and different to so perfectly copy the brain, as to copy the (whatever biochemical thing keeps the memories). 
So far in the games, the player doesn't have the ability to "improve" a Fyora to a Drayk, just to increase the Fyora's abilities through Shaping (Adding modifiers). Nor he or she can improve the Drayk to a Drakon. Drakons have the ability to mutate Drayks to Drakons, but not the PC. 
You can make a cryoa but you can't turn your Fyora to Cryora by paying a cost. 

Eass in GF2: It is very clear in GF2. Everyone tells you what the Drayks did. They even call them "Drayks" even if they are Drakons. In later GF games, they also tell you how the Drayks turned themselves to Drakons. They didn't SHAPE drakons, they mutated themselves to drakons. 
 I met him, talked with him and I killed him. Did I feel good for killing the boss of the Takers? Not really. But I was pro-awakened. I still am (Despite the Avatar, which is the Taker's flag from GF2)

1 hour ago, The Almighty Doer of Stuff said:

What if you didn't absorb the fyora's brain at all, and just replaced the body around it, reshaping the brain to suit the new body but otherwise retaining the memories and personality, rather than absorbing its whole brain and its mind and then recreating them?

THat would be closer but... is it even possible? A Fyora probably experiences the world much different than a (much smarter) Drayk and a Drayk much different than a Drakon. They are different species. 

Well, as far as I recall, Jeff said he will go with a more concrete story progression this time around. I think back when he was making the games he didn't have a solid plan from GF1 all the way to GF5. He didn't know he would return to that saga for 5 games. 

I wouldn't call it an intelligent gamma, unless I  confuse it  with something else. 

Regardless, a fyora that is able to speak  is not the same as a drayk. Also, while a skilled shaper may, with effort, create a fyora that can speak (like that Ornk that could speak), I doubt that shaper could recreate memories, emotions etc in the new fyora. 

If that was possible, then they would simply create Drayks with emotions of strong loyalty and memories that made them loyal. I sincerely doubt it is feasible as nobody was able to shape-out  the need for independence or the greed of the Drayks. 

Simply put from what we have seen in the games, shaping a Creation with a set of memories is impossible, let alone an exact copy of emotions and memories from another Creation. 

10 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

 

Using that analogy, consider a Fyora. Someone absorbs the Fyora, and creates an identical version of the creature’s brain. By definition, that is the same brain, so the same experiences, memories and so on are carried along with it. What body the brain is in, or if it even has one at all, is irrelevant. The brain is the same.
 

I hope that expresses my ideas a little more clearly! It’s hard to really talk about this without being a little confusing, since we’re not used to cloning ourselves in the real world just yet!

Oh, I see... 

But I don't think a Shaper can recreate the same brain. Also, it is undeniable IMO that a Drayk has a different brain than a Drakon and cryoa. 
Now, if the Shaper can put the emotions, memories, training, feelings of the original in the new brain then yes, but is that even possible? I think not. 

4 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Maybe Jeff finally is recognizing the Me First faction where the player character is out to amass the most power at the expense of everyone else. One goal is to kill off everyone else.

Emm... isn't that possible in all the Geneforge games?
And isn't a certain villain in GF4 being exactly that, uniting Rebels and Shapers against him? 

2 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

 

Likewise, think of someone absorbing a Fyora, and then using an identical copy of its brain to create a Drakon (making only those little changes necessary for the new body to function – note, those changes are unlikely to impact personality or memory). Much like the last example, wouldn’t the creature still have a continuous consciousness throughout this – merely suddenly substituting one body for another one? If so, Vinlie’s ‘evolution’ comment is an entirely valid interpretation.
 

As for why this would happen, why would someone absorb a perfectly decent brain, only to create an entirely new one when they made a new creature? That sounds needlessly wasteful – and would probably be more tiring, requiring more effort. Wouldn’t it make more sense for them just to duplicate the pattern they already have in their memory? If so, the scenario I describe above should be common-place.
 

I’m saying this just to show that there are different interpretations of what’s happening here. Poetic or not, unless anyone here happens to be a Fyora communicating to us through a dimensional or interfictional rift, we’re unlikely to know for sure what it’s really like!

I don't think that happens. When you absorb a Fyora, the Fyora is very much dead. When you "teleport" someone their feelings, memories, etc continue. Not so with the Drayk you make after the Fyora. 

In some way, when you give birth to a kid, it carries half of your genes. Not so with the Drayk that replaces the Fyora. 

This is not dismantling a car and using the parts to recreate a faithful copy. This is not even like dismantling a car and making a similar one using some of the parts. Actually, it is not even like dismantling a car and making another car of the same series. 
For Fyora to Cryora it is like dismantling a BMW series 3 and then making another BMW series 4 (without using parts). From Fyora to Drayk it is like dismantling a BMW series 3 and making a Mercedes of e class (without using any parts).

I.e. the Fyora ~> Cryoa are more like cousins than twins, let alone a copy like from a teleporter.  

You could first make Cryoa Yharim along with Fyora Yharim and then after a week, destroy Fyora Yharim to get the essence for a clawbug. 

I find it poetic that you see them as evolving when in truth they are killed, dismantled back to essence and you create the new version. 

iBeast is both clever and funny.

Wizardman, keep in mind that the mod I made is untested. There may be a script error or something there. Keep your gratitude till you verify it actually works!

Hey! I use plated Artillae!

"surrendering to you._";begintalknode 150;"

Hit the lines there, breaking the blocks, as in: 

...urrendering to you._";
begintalknode 150;     
state = -1; 
nextstate = -1;     
condition = 1;    
question = "";
text1 ="At last ... 

EDIT: Or... simply use this zipfile from here. It has instructions on how to install this mini-mod.