alhoon

I tried to start my brand new and shiny geneforge 2 and I couldn't find my saves from the demo. I had them uploaded on the steam cloud and now I am in a different computer. 

Could this mean that my demo saves are now lost / overwritten as the new computer connected to the cloud and perhaps overwrote what was there? Or I could find them in the other computer? 

And are Demo saves compatible? Will I be able to continue? 

6 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Come to think of it I came across a crossover quest sometime ago, the guy who made this quest had a Shaper being thrown into the Game of thrones world and it's a rather interesting one; which contains intriguing views coming from the shaper's pov, link's down below if anyone is interested.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/a-shaper-of-ice-and-fire-geneforge-got-crossover.6028/reader/

A Shaper in a law magic world would soon be a power center

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

btw are there any other setting where you played as a shaper @alhoon?

Not a Shaper that is indeed a Shaper. Settings where there were mages similar to the Shapers, yes. 

27 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Also any thoughts on this @alhoon?

Depends on the campaign and the god, I would guess. Considering there are gods that encourage clearly blasphemous practices (necromancy etc) I wouldn't expect much blowback from the divine over Shaping.

How the clergy would react, would be a much more interesting question, I think.  

3 hours ago, ultra112 said:

One more day left till release 

Time for me to finish the Demo!!!

I trust you guys that I will be able to use my saves on the full game. 

9 hours ago, ultra112 said:

The Darklord afraid of the shaper, really? Cause I thought they would be more powerful than a shaper could be.

Certainly not all. For starters a Shaper can be very very powerful mage even without the Creations. Think a Geneforge Agent after exploring much of the island. The spells and hp are enough to beat back Drayks. Then, on a character with some serious fighting skills (Guardian) or magic (Agent)... add an army of powerful creations! Think a 12th level D&D character that can simply make a party of 3-5 level 6-8 individuals! Or for a Shaper, a 10th level D&D character that can make a party of 4-6 level 8-10 individuals. As per the "wording" and experience we have from the games, Shaper creations are not pushovers. An experienced Shaper with 3 Battle Alphas and a couple of buffed Vlish is no pushover. Not just because of the creations but because of the fighting (Guardian) or Magic (Shaper, Agent) skills the Shaper has ON TOP of being able to make an army. 

Some darklords are, by design, weak. They survive because thanks to their powers they can have others doing their dirty war. Other darklords are mid-of-the-pack. Powerful enough to hold their own, but not extremely powerful. And some are O_O powerful as you imagine. 

Remember that canonically, most domains of Ravenloft are small or not very populated. A 6th level werewolf cleric with a power to control his cursed progeny is a big deal. And surrounded by several of his werewolf bodies, he's tough. But not enough to challenge a 9th party without strategic planning. There is also another darklord that is not much stronger than the average innkeeper... but he is VERY smart, and he can mind-control people with his voice. A decent spell from a 5th level character would kill him in one strike BUT he survives by NOT being the one a 5th level character would target with said spell. He acts from the shadows. Etc. 

Thinking of it, some darklords would simply want that power for themselves. Said mind-control guy would probably enthrall the Shaper turning her to his pawn. Etc. 

1 hour ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

alhoon, I was responding to your theoretical about "an Awakened-type Rebellion" so yes, "if the Awakened walked out of that mountain as victors" is exactly what was being discussed.

Yes and I explained that when I said that, I had in mind overthrowing the Shapers but not complete eradication, not co-existence. And co-existence is the Awakened goal. So with that in mind you are correct.

27 minutes ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

 

The point is though that the Rebels force you to do this, but the Shapers do not, which is one of the things that makes the Rebels harder for the player to digest.  I see your point on strategy, however, considering how incredibly un-strategic most of the Rebel goals in G3 are -- mostly just a lot of spreading destruction for its own sake -- putting myself in the PC's shoes, it's hard to take that too seriously.

On that, we agree. They burn down the house. And while at it, kill moderates... except the PC. 

You could have sabotaged the Rebels in the first two islands, in fact you do, and it is the 3rd island that makes the switch. 

27 minutes ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

 

I don't see how it would be better for the Awakened.  Khyryk is closer to them ideologically than he is to the loyalists.  If the Rebels did not exist, Khyryk expressing his views would only increase support for the Awakened -- it wouldn't make it seem like they were extreme and crazy.

They were extreme and crazy though. They are the Takers. Yes, if the Awakened walked out of that mountain as victors, Khyryk would be the person they would like to speak with. But as being the remnants folded in a faction that relies on building extremism? You don't want Khyryk on the other side any more than you want Astoria or Learned Pinner. Such things are the crux of the matter in Geneforge 2. The Takers will explain that again and again.

Perhaps I didn't put it very well in my post. 

However, in an Awakened-type victory, Khyryk is sympathetic and would cause people to say "We have enough, let's sit and discuss" instead of overthrowing the Shapers... which I see it now, I see it now, was not the goal of the Awakened. Their goal was to co-exist, not overthrow the Shapers. I admit I am something between a moderate Taker and radical Awakened. I want the Shapers to fall.

Or at the very least drastically change.  

Still, in my pro-awakened mind, I would not be comfortable with someone like Khyrik there unless the Ashen Islands were under control of the Rebellion. Allow the Shaper remnants to go to Khyrik. But would that even be possible? The Shapers would not accept it. They do not force the player to kill Khyrik... in the version that they win. If a bunch of angry Shapers were sent in exile to someone under Khyrik, they will call him a traitor like they did with Astoria and try to kill him again and again. 

7 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Damn, those are some real nasty people right there, even though what they say are true in some capacity.

Let's not pretend both of us have not sent creations out to flush out mines or blow up on enemies. Or simply to be next to valuables we would loot once the shop-keeper went away. 

26 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

ah ok then, so what about the party members are they all human or some of them non-human

I remember two gnomes, my sister always take a half-elf so I think that's what she went for... and I don't remember the rest. Six people in total. Reached 8 at some point with the Creations. That the others did not consider party members.  This happened in late 2016 BTW. Or early 2017, but more probably 2016. 

Honestly, if I had to describe the party, they would be closer to Barzite reactions. "Use them and abuse them" approach on Creations. Expendable, dangerous and should be kept on a short leash. There were jokes like "Send Pugsy down that corridor to trigger the traps! You can always make another!" etc. 

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

Oh you shaped a wingbolt and an artila in the campaign, nice.

Now that you mention it, the thing was like an artila! I should have simply called it that, as it was, IIRC ... a big worm that spat acid. I could remember wrong though. 

Also, not a wingbolt. Certainly not. A cute thing with a hairy round body and wings and a devil-like tail with a stinger. 

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Also, I wonder if the Shaper's reactions to her party members in denial would be like "Why is this so difficult for everyone to accept". Oh and btw what creations did you used in the campaign?

 

She was actually expecting them to not believe it, but she was a bit hurt. I am not sure if that was a bit of player-thought tainting how the character would react though; hard to play when none of your fellow characters like you. 

For Creations, I had a bunch of custom made ones. She opted for one flying thing with a poison stinger (similar to pseudodragon, now that I think of it, but the poison didn't put someone to sleep, but did damage) and ... something that was not flying and spitting acid. Not like the roamers though; I don't remember. 

I had more in mind, but they were never Shaped in game. 

10 hours ago, nikki. said:

 

I'm usually Awakened/Rebel – and I clearly don't remember GF3 well because it's been years since I played last – but I didn't mind them in that game? Maybe I just preferred Greta to Alwan and let that make my decision for me 😅.

 

The rebels start by killing out your friends and fellow students. Then, they spread monsters to weaken the people's resolve and trust in the Shapers. In the 2nd island, they succeed. And what do they do with the guys that sit in the mud and say "the Shapers didn't protect us from the monsters that ate our family and friends!" ? They make a guy with anger issues the boss and tell them "We will keep sending monsters after you to eat your friends and families. But, we will give you the power to fight back against the monsters we will keep sending against you." 

It makes sense from the Rebel point of view to create people that cannot under any circumstances go back to the Shapers and also give them "practice" in fighting what is practically respawning monsters to fight the Shapers. 

It is ruthless though. 

5 hours ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

Going Rebel 100% forces you to kill Khyryk in order to progress to the final island.  I think this really epitomizes the problem.  In a game that deliberately forces you to choose between terrible extremes, Khyryk is the lone sympathetic bastion of even-handed reason -- and the Rebel path forces you to kill him, but the Shaper path doesn't.

Killing moderates is understandable, though. It happens in all civil wars: the middle people are killed first. Especially since the Takers are in control, they do not want "Reasonable" people around. They want extremism from both sides. 

We have seen that in recent historical examples. During Arab Spring, extremists would first target the moderates and then they would go after their declared enemies. 

@nikki. I am also usually pro-Awakened but I do have a bit of Taker streak in me. From my point of view... sad as it is, Khyryk has to die. I am not proud about it but it is better for the Rebellion, even for an Awakened-typed one, for Khyryk to die and the Rebels to have control. 

8 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

so how did the party react to the capabilities of her powers

From "burn the witch" to "she is lying! SHE IS LYING!!! Only the gods can create life!" 

They never trusted her, even before they found out. They were an untrustworthy bunch. One character tried to shoot her in the back (I was playing Ravenloft with 17th century tech) because of... I don't remember. Somethng with splitting the loot and her being superior while he was a slave or something. 

The in-game disagreement turned to an out-of-game disagreement and contributed to the game ending early. Also the mistrust didn't go just towards the Shaper's character. Half the party didn't trust the other half. They were working together because they had to, not because they wanted to. 

I don't remember much but many of the characters were from a world where a large nation was deep into rebellion with Monarchists against Republicans. Not French Revolution, not exactly; the sides were mostly on equal footing. Regardless, the monarchists didn't like those that were pro-Republic. Another outlander was from a military dictatorship (Kinda - think like early Rome / Sparta). And the Shaper was from a magocracy. 

In hindsight, it was a recipe for disaster. 

28 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

I dunno, I think it makes a lot of sense to kill her, and the player certainly has a vested interest - it's not like she's leading the Rebels. You said loyalists shouldn't be able to kill Rahul, but the Rebel equivalent of that is Akari Blaze, right? Not Litalia.

Indeed but Litalia is #2 in Geneforge 4. 

34 minutes ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

Khyryk is the one who becomes a Trakovite, though...

yes. 

Allow me to clarify my position: 

You want the Rebel ending? DO NOT kill Litalia! (Or Akhari Blaze)

You want the Shaper Ending? DO NOT kill Rhaul. 

You want the Trakovite Ending? DO NOT kill Khyryk.

"but alhoon, there's no Trakovite ending..." My answer is "I hope there will be one! But to get it, you should absolutely not kill Khyryk." 

10 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

You know scratch that, perhaps what would happen if a shaper got thrown in the world of Ravenloft?

I can tell you that, because I have run such a campaign in Ravenloft.

Long story short, the Shaper has insane power. Thus, either the Shaper choses to hide it, or the Shaper uses it.

- If the Shaper uses it, he or she attracts a ton of attention as most places in Ravenloft view magic as inherently evil and that is before an outlander with a superiority complex starts throwing monsters out.  Thus, the Shaper will either have to become progressively more violent to defend himself/herself or the Shaper will be swallowed by the fear he or she causes - to the evil creatures of the domain or the Darklord or even the not-bad populace that sees the nose-in-the-sky, pro-magocracy guy as a threat. 

- if the Shaper decides to hide the power to avoid the above, the Dark Power (or the DM) would throw increasingly more tempting curveballs to the Shaper's way, trying to push the Shaper to reveal his or her great power and go the other route. If the Shaper uses magic to heal, then priests would consider that Shaper a cleric of a bizarre deity. Again, that's dangerous in many places but honestly, it is perhaps the safest route. 

Now, in my campaign, the Shaper in question was pretty weak. She decided to keep the power hidden. Lasted for a session and a half before the party she was in needed "a bit of extra help" after they got injured and isolated in a room within a cursed house. She tried to pass the Creations she made as summonings but after the first two creations died and she was exhibiting sadness and anger over her creations dying - and summoning does not work in the usual way in Ravenloft - the others figured something was amiss. Furthermore, the dead creations left behind their bodies. And the two creations that survived didn't dissipate. 

Well, one turned rogue later and she killed it immediately, without any regrets, calling it "a rogue". By that time, the other characters (not they players, they were aware) were really mistrusting her and confronted her about it. The character, not accustomed to dirty non-Shapers questioning her had a negative reaction and eventually pompously explained what she could do. 

Then, not much later, the party learned of a cursed lake that was spawning what she called rogues. The Shaper was pretty sure that was an essence pool that someone was misusing. Not completely correct but not 100% wrong either; it was a cursed pool that evil druids were using to augment animals under their control and turn them evil. Like awaken animal but with some boost on the stats. Nature versus civilization kind. 

Eventually the short campaign ended without resolution as life got in the way. 

4 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Or at least a way to kill Litalia even if you join the rebels. Like how you can kill Stannis even if you join the Barzites.

I strongly disagree. Killing Litalia for the rebels and Lord something for the shapers should NOT be possible. 

Or killing Kyrik for the hopefully-new Trakovite ending. 

Let's hope the rebels will get some love... GF3 is the only game that I wanted to stay with the Shapers, evil and oppressive as they are, because somehow, the Rebels were quite worse. And they kill all my friends and bully me in the opening. 

17 hours ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

In Mutagen, when you shape a creation, you don't just pick a creation, you have various options to augment it.

 

One could imagine the same sort of thing for spells.  Commit essence to improve a particular spell in different ways -- maybe it costs less energy, lasts longer, does more damage, hits a bigger area, adds a chance of a secondary effect, changes its element, changes its effect entirely, etc.

 

While this could be done on a per-cast basis, what I'm imagining is more like with creations: you spend the essence once, and that essence is committed -- augmenting that spell in your head -- until you release the essence (just like until a creation dies or is absorbed).

Interesting. But do you believe such variations should be tied to self-shaping? I think they should be tied to different in-game mechanics, like an option to cast the spell with an increased energy cost or an increased essence cost. 

1 hour ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

I meant more customization, just like shaping for other things.

I don't understand. What do you mean? We have three schools of magic (+ healing) 

Still, the ability to create living tools, improve our batons and shape thorns would be useful, especially for Agents and Warriors. This is close to "weapon shaping" that has been suggested. 

You are not wrong with that... But I do feel the plants should be in a different category. Honestly, Cockatrice for magic seems fitting. 

So, I will change it with "plants" For all those trees and turrets and the bushes that make ... 

wait, we need one for living tools, mines, doors, machinery etc. 

They are grouped together but they are not a class; Cockatrice is magic, ornk is battle, Thornstalk is... I don't know. 

"Special" class for Cockatrice, Thornstalk and Ornk