alhoon

The Barzites being good for power gamers... no, I can't say it is a huge plot twist. 

The "Servants" (man I hate that name...) that proudly bend to kiss the feet of Shapers being bootlickers pushovers... again, not surprising. 

The Awakened should be less rewarding than the Takers though; the Takers are also about power. 

I am pretty sure there are several ways to take that token, one of which is pacifist. I could remember wrong though. 

54 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

Take a deep breath

 

I think it's a rogue thahd you can do it to in the second zone. Most rogues can't be pacified with leadership though, so he's not really lying in that particular instance. 

He was. He told me it is ill-advised to do so and that young Shapers are allowed to ask this question (whether we can re-claim rogues) only a few times before it  becomes career ending. 

But the deep breaths helped. 

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

I think Nora was always like that. Too bad the game never goes into detail about why she's so loyal to him.

It does, in a way. When I pressed Nora to give me the dirt, I got a message that Guardians often take the "soldier's loyalty" too far. Couple that with the fact that she is a Shaper puppet (i.e. brainwashed), and you get where that loyalty comes from. 

10 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Certain scripted encounters allow you to calm down or control rogues with leadership. It's not a regular skill you can use at your discretion.

Wait, what?! Where? You can calm a ROGUE Fyora? Do you mean a Shaped Fyora that turned rogue, or a fyora that was born the natural way?

I mean, I JUST FINISHED a discussion with Lying Zackary the Deceiver and he told me in no uncertain terms that this is not possible so rogues must be purged. And when I say "I just finished the discussion"  my save game is RIGHT AFTER that discussion! 

I mean, come on!!!!

Something that I don't think there was in the original (Although it may have been and in my naivety failed to appreciate). 

The miserable alchemist explains to me why she thought there was a golden opportunity to come to Drypeaks: 

We have all been there, Alchemist Elili... 

Every. Word. That. Man. Says. Is. A. Lie. 

If I could choose, I would put Leadership as +1 to control any creation, Shaping skill +1 control to any creation. 

I really like the "if you bump Shaping skill by +3, and your creations jump 3 levels up, they are much more likely to break out of your control" but in that case, I would prefer a choice of whether to level my creations or not. 

Again, this quite complex process is my "this is how control would be good to work" without taking into account OTHER aspects of the game like "after increasing shaping I should go to each of my creations and check their levels" 

For a "best type of experience" combined, I would go with Leadership+1, Shaping skill+1 with a warning to not go too far the first time your creation goes to weak control. 

I concur that gaining so much control from Shaping skills + leadership is too much. 

I would like to discuss some quests, some old, some new. 

Question 1: 

I have met Zensital, the young Shaper rebuffed by Lying Zackary the Deceiver and every enemy of Zackary (except Barzahl) is my friend.

He seems the Awakened type BUT I am considering that perhaps I should direct him towards the Takers. Hear me out: He is moderate but very pro-creation. The Takers need more people like him. Of course, if Takers were talking to Shapers, they would be Awakened and there's a very good chance they will refuse Zensital or kill him but I see in his quest "Multiple locations", which makes me think that perhaps it is possible to send him to the Takers. 

Is there a time limit for this quest? Or Zensital will remain there till I discuss with him where to go? 

7 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Yeah that would most likely the case

???

What would be the case? 

28 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Seems likely, if I'm not mistaken the magic in the game of thrones' world isn't exactly powerful compare to what a shaper can do

That's what I mean with the "low magic" world. One of the biggest acts of magic in the books were the red-haired witch that was supporting Stannis Baratheon SHAPING a shade - or giving birth to a shadow demon. And using magic to shape herself young. 

Pffft. I say PFFFT. A shaper would laugh with that n0000b. 

Also, for GoT, let's define some things. 

Do we mean Shaper as in "loyalist" ? Do we mean Shaper as Lifecrafter? 

Because a Barzite in GoT world would act very differently than a Shaper. A Taker would do his or her thing, free from the oppressive weight of the Shapers. An Awakened now... 

that is a hard one. They are not adverse to power and they are pro-Shaper ideas with the exception of Creation rights. An Awakened would probably not be fine with some of the things, the few things, mages do in GoT. I don't just mean Shaping a Shade to kill a competitor, but also what that priest of light did with saving someone from the dead. 

An Awakened or a Shaper now, would also try to deal with that strange disease we saw in the tv series (I have read up to book 4 and not all of it, so some things I saw only on the series which I watched till season 6; not season 7 or 8). 

A taker would probably take the side of the deformed people with the disease that go mad and try to cure them and/or make them into an army so that those dregs of society could Take their Free.

A Shaper would try to contain them first and then, if possible cure.

An Awakened would probably bring a compassionate approach of healing and containment till those going mad had to be put down. I THINK. 

A Barzite would weaponize the disease and try to Shape it in a way that it would give him control of the people affected by it. Because Barzites are mostly evil control freaks. 

Any input here? 

I think I am spot on the "expected", middle-of-the-pack Shaper and Taker reply to that disease that turned people to mad disfigured people. 

But I am not sure on the Awakened and Barzite response. 

29 minutes ago, TriRodent said:

No idea about the first part of the question as I only save on the computer and not on Steam.  But yes, assuming that you can find them, the demo saves should work/restore to the full game now.

 

Do you still have access to the old computer? They might have saved there locally as well as out to Steam. If it was Windows it would be in Documents/Spiderweb Software/Genegorge (or something similar, once you're in the Documents folder it should be obvious where they are).  Start a new game on the new computer and then overwrite the new save folder with the same folder from the old computer. That 'should' have everything ready to go.

 

Good luck

Yes, it is in my home. In fact this one is the "old computer" and the one at home with the demo is "the new computer". I will backup my saves in the other computer before I install the full game. 

I tried to start my brand new and shiny geneforge 2 and I couldn't find my saves from the demo. I had them uploaded on the steam cloud and now I am in a different computer. 

Could this mean that my demo saves are now lost / overwritten as the new computer connected to the cloud and perhaps overwrote what was there? Or I could find them in the other computer? 

And are Demo saves compatible? Will I be able to continue? 

6 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Come to think of it I came across a crossover quest sometime ago, the guy who made this quest had a Shaper being thrown into the Game of thrones world and it's a rather interesting one; which contains intriguing views coming from the shaper's pov, link's down below if anyone is interested.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/a-shaper-of-ice-and-fire-geneforge-got-crossover.6028/reader/

A Shaper in a law magic world would soon be a power center

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

btw are there any other setting where you played as a shaper @alhoon?

Not a Shaper that is indeed a Shaper. Settings where there were mages similar to the Shapers, yes. 

27 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Also any thoughts on this @alhoon?

Depends on the campaign and the god, I would guess. Considering there are gods that encourage clearly blasphemous practices (necromancy etc) I wouldn't expect much blowback from the divine over Shaping.

How the clergy would react, would be a much more interesting question, I think.  

3 hours ago, ultra112 said:

One more day left till release 

Time for me to finish the Demo!!!

I trust you guys that I will be able to use my saves on the full game. 

9 hours ago, ultra112 said:

The Darklord afraid of the shaper, really? Cause I thought they would be more powerful than a shaper could be.

Certainly not all. For starters a Shaper can be very very powerful mage even without the Creations. Think a Geneforge Agent after exploring much of the island. The spells and hp are enough to beat back Drayks. Then, on a character with some serious fighting skills (Guardian) or magic (Agent)... add an army of powerful creations! Think a 12th level D&D character that can simply make a party of 3-5 level 6-8 individuals! Or for a Shaper, a 10th level D&D character that can make a party of 4-6 level 8-10 individuals. As per the "wording" and experience we have from the games, Shaper creations are not pushovers. An experienced Shaper with 3 Battle Alphas and a couple of buffed Vlish is no pushover. Not just because of the creations but because of the fighting (Guardian) or Magic (Shaper, Agent) skills the Shaper has ON TOP of being able to make an army. 

Some darklords are, by design, weak. They survive because thanks to their powers they can have others doing their dirty war. Other darklords are mid-of-the-pack. Powerful enough to hold their own, but not extremely powerful. And some are O_O powerful as you imagine. 

Remember that canonically, most domains of Ravenloft are small or not very populated. A 6th level werewolf cleric with a power to control his cursed progeny is a big deal. And surrounded by several of his werewolf bodies, he's tough. But not enough to challenge a 9th party without strategic planning. There is also another darklord that is not much stronger than the average innkeeper... but he is VERY smart, and he can mind-control people with his voice. A decent spell from a 5th level character would kill him in one strike BUT he survives by NOT being the one a 5th level character would target with said spell. He acts from the shadows. Etc. 

Thinking of it, some darklords would simply want that power for themselves. Said mind-control guy would probably enthrall the Shaper turning her to his pawn. Etc. 

1 hour ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

alhoon, I was responding to your theoretical about "an Awakened-type Rebellion" so yes, "if the Awakened walked out of that mountain as victors" is exactly what was being discussed.

Yes and I explained that when I said that, I had in mind overthrowing the Shapers but not complete eradication, not co-existence. And co-existence is the Awakened goal. So with that in mind you are correct.

27 minutes ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

 

The point is though that the Rebels force you to do this, but the Shapers do not, which is one of the things that makes the Rebels harder for the player to digest.  I see your point on strategy, however, considering how incredibly un-strategic most of the Rebel goals in G3 are -- mostly just a lot of spreading destruction for its own sake -- putting myself in the PC's shoes, it's hard to take that too seriously.

On that, we agree. They burn down the house. And while at it, kill moderates... except the PC. 

You could have sabotaged the Rebels in the first two islands, in fact you do, and it is the 3rd island that makes the switch. 

27 minutes ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

 

I don't see how it would be better for the Awakened.  Khyryk is closer to them ideologically than he is to the loyalists.  If the Rebels did not exist, Khyryk expressing his views would only increase support for the Awakened -- it wouldn't make it seem like they were extreme and crazy.

They were extreme and crazy though. They are the Takers. Yes, if the Awakened walked out of that mountain as victors, Khyryk would be the person they would like to speak with. But as being the remnants folded in a faction that relies on building extremism? You don't want Khyryk on the other side any more than you want Astoria or Learned Pinner. Such things are the crux of the matter in Geneforge 2. The Takers will explain that again and again.

Perhaps I didn't put it very well in my post. 

However, in an Awakened-type victory, Khyryk is sympathetic and would cause people to say "We have enough, let's sit and discuss" instead of overthrowing the Shapers... which I see it now, I see it now, was not the goal of the Awakened. Their goal was to co-exist, not overthrow the Shapers. I admit I am something between a moderate Taker and radical Awakened. I want the Shapers to fall.

Or at the very least drastically change.  

Still, in my pro-awakened mind, I would not be comfortable with someone like Khyrik there unless the Ashen Islands were under control of the Rebellion. Allow the Shaper remnants to go to Khyrik. But would that even be possible? The Shapers would not accept it. They do not force the player to kill Khyrik... in the version that they win. If a bunch of angry Shapers were sent in exile to someone under Khyrik, they will call him a traitor like they did with Astoria and try to kill him again and again. 

7 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Damn, those are some real nasty people right there, even though what they say are true in some capacity.

Let's not pretend both of us have not sent creations out to flush out mines or blow up on enemies. Or simply to be next to valuables we would loot once the shop-keeper went away. 

26 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

ah ok then, so what about the party members are they all human or some of them non-human

I remember two gnomes, my sister always take a half-elf so I think that's what she went for... and I don't remember the rest. Six people in total. Reached 8 at some point with the Creations. That the others did not consider party members.  This happened in late 2016 BTW. Or early 2017, but more probably 2016. 

Honestly, if I had to describe the party, they would be closer to Barzite reactions. "Use them and abuse them" approach on Creations. Expendable, dangerous and should be kept on a short leash. There were jokes like "Send Pugsy down that corridor to trigger the traps! You can always make another!" etc. 

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

Oh you shaped a wingbolt and an artila in the campaign, nice.

Now that you mention it, the thing was like an artila! I should have simply called it that, as it was, IIRC ... a big worm that spat acid. I could remember wrong though. 

Also, not a wingbolt. Certainly not. A cute thing with a hairy round body and wings and a devil-like tail with a stinger. 

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Also, I wonder if the Shaper's reactions to her party members in denial would be like "Why is this so difficult for everyone to accept". Oh and btw what creations did you used in the campaign?

 

She was actually expecting them to not believe it, but she was a bit hurt. I am not sure if that was a bit of player-thought tainting how the character would react though; hard to play when none of your fellow characters like you. 

For Creations, I had a bunch of custom made ones. She opted for one flying thing with a poison stinger (similar to pseudodragon, now that I think of it, but the poison didn't put someone to sleep, but did damage) and ... something that was not flying and spitting acid. Not like the roamers though; I don't remember. 

I had more in mind, but they were never Shaped in game. 

10 hours ago, nikki. said:

 

I'm usually Awakened/Rebel – and I clearly don't remember GF3 well because it's been years since I played last – but I didn't mind them in that game? Maybe I just preferred Greta to Alwan and let that make my decision for me 😅.

 

The rebels start by killing out your friends and fellow students. Then, they spread monsters to weaken the people's resolve and trust in the Shapers. In the 2nd island, they succeed. And what do they do with the guys that sit in the mud and say "the Shapers didn't protect us from the monsters that ate our family and friends!" ? They make a guy with anger issues the boss and tell them "We will keep sending monsters after you to eat your friends and families. But, we will give you the power to fight back against the monsters we will keep sending against you." 

It makes sense from the Rebel point of view to create people that cannot under any circumstances go back to the Shapers and also give them "practice" in fighting what is practically respawning monsters to fight the Shapers. 

It is ruthless though. 

5 hours ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

Going Rebel 100% forces you to kill Khyryk in order to progress to the final island.  I think this really epitomizes the problem.  In a game that deliberately forces you to choose between terrible extremes, Khyryk is the lone sympathetic bastion of even-handed reason -- and the Rebel path forces you to kill him, but the Shaper path doesn't.

Killing moderates is understandable, though. It happens in all civil wars: the middle people are killed first. Especially since the Takers are in control, they do not want "Reasonable" people around. They want extremism from both sides. 

We have seen that in recent historical examples. During Arab Spring, extremists would first target the moderates and then they would go after their declared enemies. 

@nikki. I am also usually pro-Awakened but I do have a bit of Taker streak in me. From my point of view... sad as it is, Khyryk has to die. I am not proud about it but it is better for the Rebellion, even for an Awakened-typed one, for Khyryk to die and the Rebels to have control.