Real newbie questions for G4

[Petoffen]

I like the whole 'lifecrafter' thing, following my magician (read pet summoner) in Everquest (see name).

 

Anyway, on to my newbiew quesitons:

 

- Does it make sense to blow all my gold on training 'upgraded' creatures? (I'm guessing I should concentrate on 1 or 2 types of creatures, probably magic and/or fire)

 

- Is it harmless of costly to unsummon a pet (er, creature) and resummon others to see them and experiment? I notice the creature has exp points, adding to his attributes, so I'm concerned that getting rid of it will lose that.

 

- How do I know what items to keep for future crafting, and which to sell for gold? Some are obvious like sell unneeded weapons and keep herbs, but things like rings, bars of iron, trader equipment with the description vaguely alluding to 'useful for people doing research'... maybe it's for someone to use to research a creature.

 

Most games seem to make a point to give you an idea about that, and those that don't are often infamous for frustration (how many EQ players had bags full of 'just in case' items early on?) They eventually added a 'used in crafting' tag on items. World of Warcraft, in contrast, used the 'gray/white' name convention to distinguish.

[Dikiyoba]

1. Maybe not all your gold (you'll want spells and a few items too), but yes. If you can can get three levels of a creation, you can then create an upgraded version of it. Some of the upgraded creations are lousy, but others are really good. Battle shaping creations are lousy, so focus more on magic and/or fire shaping.

 

2. Creations level up if you have them around for a while. So an artila you've had for a long time will be stronger than an artila you just made. But eventually higher-tier creations will be stronger than lower-tier creations you've had for a long time. That said, it's very possible to keep the first creations you make throughout the entire game.

 

And experimenting is always good, though you might want to keep a backup save in case you want to go back and do something differently.

 

3. Synergy's Forging List. Spoilerific, but extremely handy. You'll also come across these recipes in-game by reading books and talking to people. You'll also want to hang onto research notes, swamp herbs, and melted glass.

 

Dikiyoba.

[The Ratt]

Where's the research notes quest? I've never been able to find it.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

You'll also want to hang onto research notes, swamp herbs, and melted glass.

Dikiyoba.

You forgot to mention the cake quest. You should probably collect cakes as soon as you see it, cause there's only 3 or 4 in the game, and I could neer remember where.

Edit: Typo

[Petoffen]

A general comment on game design:

 

Two approaches are both valid, one where 'quest items' are clearly noted as such for the player, and another where there's a problem-solving/exploration/mystery element to figuring out how to use items for crafting.

 

But the approach that doesn't work for me is when you have far more items than inventory space, and no way to discern which ones to save other than arbitrarily guessing and having to not keep some items that are useful while keeping some that are useless, until you find the quests and can use the information when you replay the game.

 

I find that an exercise iin frustration and futilty. Not aiming the comment at G4, but just expressing an opinion on the issue.

 

Thanks for the responses. I'm still a bit fuzzy on the pet with experience versus the new model pet tradeoffs.

[Sudanna]

A creation you've had for a long time will be better than one you just made, unless you drastically improved your Shaping skills, but a new creation of a stronger type will be even better. In other words, if you've had a Fyora for a long time, don't get rid of it for a new Fyora, Thahd, or Artila. Do get rid of it for a new Cryoa.

[Randomizer]

Items can be stored anywhere on the ground, so excess items can pile up in a convient spot to be retrieved when you need them.

 

This is really necessary when your backpack fills with charms.

 

Research notebook quest is the guy in the southeast corner of the inn in Dillame.

[Dikiyoba]

[Edit: Randomizer, boo! ]

 

Originally Posted By: Petoffen

But the approach that doesn't work for me is when you have far more items than inventory space, and no way to discern which ones to save other than arbitrarily guessing and having to not keep some items that are useful while keeping some that are useless, until you find the quests and can use the information when you replay the game.

Find a box or barrel somewhere you have easy access to and store all your extra items there (I use the box near the back exit of Southforge for stackable items and the floor just a few spaces away for non-stackable items). You are not supposed to carry every thing you will ever need with you the whole time. The limit is some earlier games is two hundred items per zone but I think in G4 it's been raised, so storing items shouldn't be a problem.

 

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

Where's the research notes quest? I've never been able to find it.

Fackler, located in the Dillame Inn. He's mixed in with all the drunks, so use tab to find him.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

Creations gain experience only slowly, and it takes a lot of experience to make a difference. So a little experimenting really won't cost you anything significant. But creations that you've had with you through an entire chapter or two will be quite a bit better than brand-new replacements of the same type (unless in between you have raised your creation skills a lot). So you probably shouldn't replace those ones casually.

 

I normally don't have a problem with this. I usually find that by the time I learn a new creation, I have enough spare essence to make one to try it out. Or if I don't have enough spare on hand, it's because I've been steadily investing all my essence in creations, so my last one or two are rather new and can be sacrificed without much loss. Or later in the game it may be best to sacrifice my oldest creations, because they are long since obsolete and are bound to be absorbed soon anyway.

[Randomizer]

Depending upon the Geneforge game, later higher tier creations will have more health and other stats for the same or less essence cost. The best way to check is to have a separate back up save game file so you can see what the differences are before absorbing older creations. You can't always generalize and some players get by with their original creations.

[The Ratt]

See that's why I never found him, I try to avoid drunkards as much as possible. They tend to be violent at most, and rude or unconversational at most.

 

There is cake in the kitchens of Dillame Fortress, which is to the left of the entrance.

 

Also is there someone else who wants cake other than that servile in Khima-Uss?

[Randomizer]

No one else wants cake, but all the cake is in the southern map part in Southforge Citadel, Rivergate Keep and the Western Rise.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

See that's why I never found him, I try to avoid drunkards as much as possible.

True adventurers know random drunkards is where all the real money is.

[Petoffen]

Thanks again. I started a second char concentrating on fire creatures, and have barely started, but the same question comes up pretty quickly - I saved up enough for the first improvement to the first creature (fyora?), but the one I'd summoned I think went up a bit in levels doing the first few quests, so worth it to summoned the 'improved' one? Dunno.

 

To update the above, I did a save and summon and compared them and the new one had better stats all around, slightly.

[Student of Trinity]

What kind of 'improved' do you mean? Making a Cryoa instead of the Fyora, or just 'evolving' the Fyora (boosting its stats a bit)?

 

Cryoas are quite a lot better than Fyoras, but also cost quite a lot more, so you really have to compare one Cryoa to a couple of Fyoras. You might want to just wait a bit, or pump Intelligence to get more essence, so that you can make the Cryoa without dumping your Fyora. Compare them and see which is better bang for buck.

 

Evolving existing creations can be worthwhile, but I usually never bother. You have to spend quite a lot more essence to boost a primitive creation type up to the point where it can compete with higher tier creatures. Maybe it can sometimes end up being more efficient to use evolved low-tier creatures instead of higher tier ones, but when the opportunity to make a more advanced creature comes up I'd usually rather have the new model because it's new and different.

[Dikiyoba]

The cryoa is definitely better than the fyora (unless you run across something cold-resistant), but the fyora does well enough and is so cheap Dikiyoba usually keeps it around.

[Petoffen]

I meant the next step up fyora. The original was level 11, and the new one was level 12.

 

It'd be nice with these names to know in game whether the creatures are fire magic or physical, but I can look it up.

 

This guy's (fyora) a terror and fun! Now to figure out where his stats are best. Currently str>dex>end>int, balancing all.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Petoffen

It'd be nice with these names to know in game whether the creatures are fire magic or physical, but I can look it up.

Each horizontal row on the creation screen corresponds to a class of creations. The row that starts with fyoras is all fire creations, the row that starts with thahds is battle creations, and the row that starts with artilas is magic creations.

[Randomizer]

Cryoa's have a physical damage bite (melee attack) so they still can deal with cold resistant creations. That's how they put the bite on shades in Sandros mine.

 

 

[Petoffen]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Petoffen

It'd be nice with these names to know in game whether the creatures are fire magic or physical, but I can look it up.

Each horizontal row on the creation screen corresponds to a class of creations. The row that starts with fyoras is all fire creations, the row that starts with thahds is battle creations, and the row that starts with artilas is magic creations.

I guess I meant at the trainer in his menu, too.

Well, I got a cryoa, good stuff.

And now the tradeoff is getting less clear after I got an improvement to it.

My original cryoa is level 20, 130HP, 12/12/12/10, 10k exp.

My new croa is level 16, 118HP, 13/13/11/11, 15k exp.

So the new one has better stats (by 2) but 4 fewer levels, 5k less exp, and 12 fewer HP.

I guess the old one is better.

[Gandalf the Purple]

A cryoa is the better. Trust me.

[Evnissyen]

Plus the fyora's stats eventually max out so it won't be getting any stronger. It won't be able to compete against higher-level foes later in the game.

 

[Dikiyoba]

I rarely increase a creation's stats beyond the 2 intelligence. A few points if I see they really need it and I have the essence to spare, but that's all. Even with maxed stats, a fyora is never going to be a major damage dealer (or absorber), so the essence would be better spent on a new creation to help the fyora out.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Gandalf the Purple]

I agree with dikiyoba.

[Petoffen]

I may have to try for 2 cryora's soon.

 

He's doing very nicely, but there was one enemy, an undead guarding a belt, and it was strange.

 

He'd regularly only do 1 damage the first attack, maybe 0 the next; ok, then I'd think his attack just doesn't work - but later he'd start doing 39 damage and 41 damage. Weird that it'd be so varied.

 

He's also not as helpful with crowds, since he kills 1 per round.

[Dikiyoba]

Your cryoa has two attacks. The breath attack does cold damage, which the undead is immune to, and the bite attack does physical damage, which the undead is not immune to. Does that explain the difference?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Evnissyen]

So, aside from the likely fact that we all probably have our own ideas in regard to Dikiyoba's peculiar attachment to fyoras... am I to assume that Dikiyoba's fyora (and perhaps Gandalf's?) functions essentially as a kind of non-human Sancho Panza with teeth and combustible breath?

 

[Petoffen]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Your cryoa has two attacks. The breath attack does cold damage, which the undead is immune to, and the bite attack does physical damage, which the undead is not immune to. Does that explain the difference?

Dikiyoba.

It doesn't, because the cryoa was only seen using one attack per round. The damage I described wasn't 0 damage then 41 damage as two attacks in a round, it was like 1 damage in round 1, 0 damage round 2, then maybe suddently 39 damage round 3, 41 damage round 4, and so on.

Anyway, I got the two cryoa's, and that's great, but I went into the mud pit, and that's not so great. Those flowers that eat buds to regen are a problem.

My two cryoas can *almost* kill one, but then it full regens and fears them or wipes them out before long (I found the crystals and summoned two fresh cryoas, but...)

My char sort of stands there twiddling his thumbs after a battle buff, since he does little damage, little in heals, etc. Maybe he should strap on the sword and take a wack.

Maybe this is a set of battles deserving the use of those speed spores...

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Petoffen

It doesn't, because the cryoa was only seen using one attack per round. The damage I described wasn't 0 damage then 41 damage as two attacks in a round, it was like 1 damage in round 1, 0 damage round 2, then maybe suddently 39 damage round 3, 41 damage round 4, and so on.

Yes, it's only doing one attack per round, but it has two attacks to choose from. When it's in melee range, it'll use its bite attack: if it's even a tiny distance away from its target, it'll use its cold breath.

You may as well use speed spores for tough battles if you have them: they'll become mostly redundant once you learn to cast Haste anyway.

[Randomizer]

When you are hasted you can then advance to just in missle range to attack and then retreat against those sporecone plants so they can't hit back. It takes some practice, but it's very effective.

 

Also take out the buds first so it can't use them to regenerate.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Also take out the buds first so it can't use them to regenerate.

If he has two cryoas that are blessed and hasted, Dikiyoba suspects it's possible to take the spinecore out in a single round. No need to get shot at. Might take some careful positioning to make sure the cryoas are getting two attacks per round, though.

[Petoffen]

Thanks; I would but don't think my guys can take the hits from the main flowers while killing the buds.

 

So, new plan, I'm gonna use those blue ice crystals along with the two cryoa's, that should kill them in one round.

 

The haste and move back would probably work too, but I have more crystals than haste:)

 

Compliments to Jeff for coming up with the fresh monster, we've played enough games that you don't see a lot fresh:)

[Sudanna]

Fresh monster? Cryoas are old, at least from G2. Spinecores are from G3 at least.

[Petoffen]

Originally Posted By: ~Nalyd~

Fresh monster? Cryoas are old, at least from G2. Spinecores are from G3 at least.

How can you call our Cryoas monsters? I'm referring to the flowers that use those 'buds' to regenerate.

[Sudanna]

Yah, Spinecores.

[Dikiyoba]

Spinecores are in G2 as well.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Petoffen]

OK, I mean fresh to me from other non-Spiderweb games:)

[Gandalf the Purple]

What?!? There are other types of games besides Spiderweb games? There is a life besides Spiderweb games?

[Sudanna]

Don't try to impress us with fanboiness. It's like the pot saying it's blacker than the kettle.

 

*Sigh* And, as always, that particular - What? Idiom? - sounds vaguely racist.

[Synergy]

C i v i l i z a t i o n .

 

It's virtual crack.

 

-S-

[Gandalf the Purple]

I was just joking Nalyd. I have no doubt that ya'll are all much bigger fans than I am.

[Sudanna]

Ah, world maps in Civilzation. Nalyd get Eurasafrica, and the other player gets the Americas. . . Good times. . .

[Gandalf the Purple]

Crap, now I'm consumed by the need to play some Civilzation.

[Garoth]

Originally Posted By: Petoffen

Thanks; I would but don't think my guys can take the hits from the main flowers while killing the buds.

So, new plan, I'm gonna use those blue ice crystals along with the two cryoa's, that should kill them in one round.

The haste and move back would probably work too, but I have more crystals than haste:)

Compliments to Jeff for coming up with the fresh monster, we've played enough games that you don't see a lot fresh:)

If you can take the Spinecore (that's the central "flower") out in one round, the buds can't do squat. Focus on getting rid of the Spinecore, then take out the defenseless buds later for exp.

Cryoa are the best early-game creations, though I tend to play as a solo character until I can train in Create Vlish from Rivergate Keep (Lifecrafter runs excluded, of course). The Vlish then become sweet, followed by Wingbolts and (if you're using canisters) Drayks. Kyshakks and all battle creations are pretty meh. Wingbolts are more essence-efficient than Gazers, and Ur-Drakons are generally more useful than Eyebeasts.

[Gandalf the Purple]

I disagree about drakons and eyebeasts. I find the eyebeasts to be generally stronger.

[Petoffen]

On the 'if you're using cannisters', I've seen nothing in game so far to say there's any disadvantage to doing so.

 

If that's not the case, I'm not looking for spoilers, it'd just be a note that maybe the game should warn you (maybe it does).

[Gandalf the Purple]

Several shapers note that you have been using many canisters during the game, and canister use or not changes your ending considerably.

[Sudanna]

Canisters warp your mind and body, making you very mentally unstable, addicted to canisters, and possibly giving you very negative physical side effects, like radioactive flesh. Only the first effect has in-game consequences, though. Using them also makes the Shapers hate you.

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba thinks Gibbons in the Ilya Safehouse makes it pretty obvious that you will get even more angry if you continue using canisters (and end up having to fight in a few situations a non-canister user wouldn't have to). Of course, you're probably not that far yet.

[The Ratt]

Let him use the canisters. It's fun being required to fight an eyebeast or two, each with twenty or so slaves.