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OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac...

Arenax

By Arenax
in Blades of Avernum Editor

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

Posted
Posted

Should I bite the bullet and start figuring out REALbasic in order to port AvScript and AvDialogue to Macintosh?

 

I'm asking for your votes, people. There are pros and cons to both decisions.

 

PROS

-Mac people can use them.

-Uh...Linux people can, too.

 

CONS

-I will have to rewrite virtually everything, in essence starting over at 0.1 BETA.

-The Windows version will suffer in functionality. I'm not going to run two separate projects; both platforms will get the same thing.

-The interface will become crap. I can't use tabbed controls in REALbasic, which are the basis of most of AvScript and AvDialogue's interface. So we'll have a bunch of smaller things crowded onto a single form.

-It'll involve a lot of time on my part and probably cost some money so I can buy the product and actually use it legally.

 

I know others have offered to port it, but I just don't let others mess with code my name could be attached to.

 

So, I'm asking you. Should I? My main problem is that the Windows version will become less useful, which means the people I'm primarily building these for (PC users) become screwed. I'll do what you guys choose, though.

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Dastal
Garrulous Glaahk

Dastal

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I think haveing a sucky interface would make "ease-of-interface" scripting tools useless. I also think TM's data actually contradicts his argument. Since the only currently published authors are Mac users, perhaps the Windows users are not as ready to go hard core on the scripting as the Mac authors have already demonstated they will.

 

Incidentally, there are more than 5 designers, some of them have just published things. Now, in the interests of staying level, I should also point out that a large piece of why there are more Mac authors may have something to do with them having 6 more months to design. The fact that most of the published designers were beta-testers supports that supposition.

 

Now, just looking at your list of pros and cons, there is one, admittedly fairly large, pro (ahm, there is no Linux BoA, so it doesn't really count). On the other hand there are 4 cons. The time and money issue is one you need to evaluate for your self. Crap interface, as I said above seems to make the whole project self-defeating, same thing with making a less functional version.

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Walker:

 

I don't use wxWidgets and a more portable language because of a few things.

 

1) Being forced to work directly with GTK blows hard.

 

2) I don't know how to do GUI programming in C/C++ and can't do something of this depth using Java in a reasonable amount of time. RAD has a purpose. (My knowledge of C/C++ is more or less limited to DirectX, OpenGL, and game logic.)

 

To do this in C++ would take me weeks. In any flavor of BASIC I can do it in under a day. The first version of AvDialogue took me seven hours, and I haven't spent more than ten adding new features and debugging.

 

3) I'm way more comfortable doing file access in BASIC languages, because I can do it faster and more reliably.

 

TM:

 

You "big-name" designers are less likely to use my tools, anyway. These are mostly for less seasoned designers.

 

And for everyone:

 

I've started working on it. The CallWizards idea is already gone, though if I ever port/finish AvScript it'll be there. This is going to be slow as hell to do, but I'm working on it.

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Donald Hebb
Magnificent Ornk

Donald Hebb

Posted
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I'm not sure that I was arguing for/against porting- I was just putting information out. (Honestly, I wouldn't be entirely adverse to a simple, low-bandwidth JS site to do my dirty work.)

 

On the other side of the coin, though, most big-name designers from the BoE era are gone or inactive. So people on both platforms will probably need tools to get them started, since so few experienced people are around. (Not that BoE was any better, but I'd like to think that we could start better this time.)

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:
Um, wxWidgets doesn't force you to do ANYTHING with Gtk+. It doesn't even USE Gtk+ on your target platforms, so I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
The last version of it I checked out required GTK+ installed on even Win32 machines to work.

Quote:
[qb]
I thought you said you were a Python man. Use wxPython; it's extremely mature.
I use Python for web scripting and a scripting language in the game I'm writing. I've never used it for standalone executable programs, and from the problems I had when I tried, I don't plan on it.

And I'm sure you just glossed over that I didn't care to spend weeks doing it, but hey.
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EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Garrulous Glaahk

EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS

Posted
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Jesus. Do you have to be so defensive?

 

In any case, wxWidgets doesn't require Gtk+ on Windows. As far as I can remember, wxWindows was out on Win32 before Gtk+ for Win32 existed.

 

Regardless, even the Unix port doesn't make you do anything directly with Gtk+. That's why it's a cross-platform library.

 

wxPython and XRCed together make a very fine rapid development platform. I see no reason why trivial applications like yours would take more than a week or two to implement with them.

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Wham Bam Shizzlezam
Garrulous Glaahk

Wham Bam Shizzlezam

Posted
Posted

OK, I am having problems opening AvernumScript. I download it from your site, unzip it to a new folder on the desktop, and I double click on the icon "AvScript v0.2 BETA". I then get a message saying this:

 

Run-time error '339':

 

Component 'COMDLG32.OCX' or on of its dependencies are not correctly registered: a file is missing or invalid

 

What is this?

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Sticky
Rotghroth Rhapsody

Sticky

Posted
Posted
Quote:
OK, I am having problems opening AvernumScript. I download it from your site, unzip it to a new folder on the desktop, and I double click on the icon "AvScript v0.2 BETA". I then get a message saying this:

Run-time error '339':

Component 'COMDLG32.OCX' or on of its dependencies are not correctly registered: a file is missing or invalid

What is this?
Means you don't have the correct file library
I posted the place to get the file in the thread for the AvScript

Or I or someone else can email it to you
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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by KernelKnowledge12:
Quote:
Originally written by Arenax:

And I'm sure you just glossed over that I didn't care to spend weeks doing it, but hey.
If you're not going to do it well, don't do it.
...Can you read?

Let's see what I said. I said I can make it in a few days with a RAD tool or spend weeks doing the same thing with C/C++ or something.

Are you guys actively trying to get me not to do this?
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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:
Jesus. Do you have to be so defensive?
If you're going to be offensive, then, why, yes.

Quote:

In any case, wxWidgets doesn't require Gtk+ on Windows. As far as I can remember, wxWindows was out on Win32 before Gtk+ for Win32 existed.
Maybe so--but I've had hell with Gtk+ and was unsure when starting this mess whether it was necessary to port.

Quote:

Regardless, even the Unix port doesn't make you do anything directly with Gtk+. That's why it's a cross-platform library.
Fair enough.

Quote:

wxPython and XRCed together make a very fine rapid development platform. I see no reason why trivial applications like yours would take more than a week or two to implement with them.
Because I'd have to learn it, and picking up new stuff takes me a while.
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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by KernelKnowledge12:
Quote:
Originally written by Arenax:
Are you guys actively trying to get me not to do this?
If you don't want any help/suggestions, than make your program any way you see fit and stop wasting people's time.
"Don't do it if you're not going to do it right" isn't a suggestion nor help.

So grow up and get a brain.
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EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Garrulous Glaahk

EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS

Posted
Posted

Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.

 

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.

 

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.

 

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:
Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.
And I quote:

"Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?"

Sounds rather offensive to me. Oh, wait--I don't always use the Holy Grail of computer languages, so I must be wrong.

Quote:

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.
I held no issue with you in the other thread; that was one I enjoyed. But attacking me for daring to use a language you find fault with (which is what that previous quote was, in case you didn't notice) is reason enough for me to bring it up a few levels.

Oh, and IIRC, the e-mail I sent pertained to an inquiry as to features and other user-centric facets of a program--not the code itself.

I'm not a person who believes in turning the other cheek. So sue me.

Quote:

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.
Strange, I wasn't attempting to be arrogant--I've simply stated facts as I see them and refused to put up with crap. People who remember me from then will probably tell you that I was always this way. I listen to reasoned opinions; I ignore those who aren't.

Quote:

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.
"Those who can, do." I do what I can, and I don't put up with crap from people who I don't respect. You're okay, I'll give you that. I respect you to a degree, probably moreso than most because you know what you're talking about.

There's no way in hell I'm going to be anything remotely close to polite with those who beg for tools to make BoA scripting easier and then whine when they get the tools "because they're not done right" in some indefinable way.

I get along fine with TM, Kelandon, Khoth, and a number of others--because they can do things (and do do things) and have earned my respect.

And were you anyone else, I'd tell you to get a clue--but I do think you have one and simply can't quite find it at the moment.
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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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I'd like a straight answer to a question, if I may.

 

Last I checked, I have offered to port my stuff to the Mac. This is a chore that brings me no personal benefit whatsoever. I'm also considering making it open-source, an ideology to which I do not hold, for the benefit of all of you people.

 

So why, exactly, did you begin by piling on me because I "wasn't doing it right"? I fully expect all of those who have complained not to use my software--they're insisting it's done badly sight unseen, so obviously they won't try it--but I want to know--why?

 

Why are you attacking me for doing y'all a service that I personally could do well without?

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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"Use a decent language" is just a wee bit of an attack in my book, especially considering I've explained why I didn't want to use C/C++ or Java.

 

EDIT: Oh, and BTW--the entire issue is rather moot. I've offered to do something for the community that will not benefit me in the slightest and it seems a number of people are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Criticism is fine--if it's constructive criticism that can be leveraged into something useful. "Use a decent language" when the project is already mostly completed is not constructive, now, is it?

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Originally written by but babey u make me so sad:
So you missed the "Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?" and "Then you wouldn't have to port anything." parts of his post?
Not at all. But I explained why that didn't work and he continued in the same vein. The program was already mostly done, and is about 60% done after two days of work (whereas in C++ or Python it'd be somewhere around 5%, but that's another story), and he continued along the lines of "use a decent language."
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UA
Garrulous Glaahk

UA

Posted
Posted

Mr. Blacken, various groups of programmers would generally consider RAD tools to be extremely inferior. In fact, I beieve they're more scripting, than programming.

 

Generally speaking, if you're patient enough, you can come up with a better and more reliable program in C[++] than if you used RAD.

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Kelandon
Magnificent Ornk

Kelandon

Posted
Posted

I think that last post was the first one that even hinted at a "If you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all" mentality. That's just something you made up, Arenax. Go back and re-read.

 

Moreover, no one attacked you until you started insulting Djur. Djur may not be a big-name designer, but he's our friend.

 

Also, I think the "use a decent language" comment was more intended to deal with the "cons" in your original post than it was to attack you. Stareye said much the same thing: there's no hurry. If there's some question about whether you'll make it, we'd rather something than nothing, but if you're going to make it, you might as well make it well.

 

If it's almost done, then I guess there's no point in talking about it anymore. If you weren't going to listen to us anyway, I'm not sure why you asked our opinion. And don't pretend: you said yourself that the program was already mostly done by the time Djur suggested to use a different language, which was less than four hours after you first posted. If you were too far along in the process to listen to anyone after four hours, you weren't going to listen to anyone at all.

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EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Garrulous Glaahk

EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS

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How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

 

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

 

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:
How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.
1) The program was already written in VB; all that was necessary was porting. I have stated that previously. The only thing I asked was whether I should port to Mac, given the problems.

2) It actually does support tabs; you've just got to look around. I hadn't found that in the system's controls.

3) "Use a decent language" is not a form of criticism that assists development of a better program, especially considering how I had said that I was using RB for reasons already outlined.

But of course--Djur must be right. How dare I question him. :rolleyes:
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EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Garrulous Glaahk

EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS

Posted
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Yes, it is. If you said "I'm using INTERCAL to develop my new office suite!" anyone would be justified in saying "INTERCAL sucks, use a real language."

 

Regarding tabbed controls -- I was working off what you said. I progressed beyond VB and its ilk in 1999, so I have no idea what RB supports except what you said.

 

Why do you ask "Should I rewrite my tools in language X?" if you're not interested in hearing criticisms of that language? Are you the only person entitled to an opinion in the wide world of computer science?

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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:
Um, part of that decision is the decision whether REALbasic is sufficient. You said as much.
Quote:
Originally written by Arenax:
Should I bite the bullet and start figuring out REALbasic in order to port AvScript and AvDialogue to Macintosh?
I'd argue that'd be a secondary clause myself (sort of like "use a decent language"), but that's an argument of semantics. I'm too tired to argue at the moment; I'm too busy using my AvDialogue2 beta to make a dialogue script for my scenario. laugh
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Arenax
Kyshakk Koan

Arenax

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Status update (though why I'm bothering is beyond me):

 

The port's status is at about 75-80% workable. I had a HD problem that seems to have nuked the most recent version, which was almost releaseable.

 

Thanks to Thuryl for helping me out on something regarding it.

 

I should have a working version by Friday, as I've planned.

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