Play-by-Post Rp

[Goldengirl]

I've been itching to play a roleplaying game with Spiderwebbers for a long time. And, Spiderwebbers have been playing them for a long time. RP's with cool names like, "The Bloodstained Sky," have proliferated to good success, from what I've seen.

 

My problem is that I have no real interest in those games. They're a logistical nightmare for me (and I suspect others) who can't make time windows open up at the right moments. Moreover, as a more personal problem, I'm very inexperienced with D&D type roleplaying at all, which would be an added barrier.

 

So, I'm asking about community interest to play a play-by-post RP. This has a lot of precedence in Spiderweb history, for instance with the Mountain of Shadows RP, the World of Avernum RPs, and more. They've worked before, they've fizzled before.

 

One trick that I think could work would be to have a central player (me) act as a kind of GM. One thing that I know has gotten into contention in past RP's, specifically in RP's based on fantasy settings, is the role of research. In a Geneforge based RP, players kept revealing stronger and stronger creations that could overcome everyone's defenses. This got into a rather ridiculous arms race. I remember in an Avernum based RP there was some contention when one character started using cannons, justifying it by saying that technological development had occurred. Godmodding in general is a problem, especially when players are adversaries of each other.

 

I think having a GM to arbitrate disputes and decide certain key elements would work well, without having to get into all of the technicalities and mechanics of dice-based AIMHacks. I think this could help a play-by-post RP work where predecessors haven't before.

 

I also think that having the convenience to post at your own pace is a lot less of logistical nightmare than getting everyone together for an AIM session. The flipside, of course, is that people might become inactive, but that's something I'm hoping 1) won't happen, and 2) can be dealt with by the GM.

 

Thoughts?

[Sudanna]

The problem that I've seen with GMed play-by-post RPs is that people have to either

a ) Consult with the GM a lot, slowing things down to a crawl.

b ) Post everything in very short segments so the GM can make their direction clear, also slowing things down to a crawl.

Or c ) Ignore the GM until they get told to change something, which nobody likes doing.

 

It depends on how much GM involvement there is, but still.

 

Also, there's the problem of forum RPs just not being nearly as popular or sustainable as they used to be. There've been a few tries to start new ones on CR and on here in the last few years, but they haven't caught on. I think forum RPs might be dead.

[Alorael at Large]

I haven't been a prolific forum RPer and, honestly, probably won't be one now, but it's not like forums or RP have changed at all since the invention of, oh, UBB code. Spiderweb culture might be different, but it also can keep changing. The only way to find out is to try.

 

 

Nalyd is onto something about GMs, though. The slower the medium, the more time becomes important. Play by post loses the logistical overhead at the cost of being really, really slow. A GM will bottleneck that even more, and I think that's too big a cost. You could have some kind of executive oversight, but doing that by committee in an OOC thread might work too.

 

—Alorael, who is just opining without basis. Carry on.

[adc.]

Playing as a Geneforge character here on Spiderweb would strike my fancy. If that ever happens, do let me know.

[Goldengirl]

I can see the point you're making, Nalyd (and by extension, Alo). I'm not sure than a committee in an OOC thread would be any faster, though.

 

The ultimate solution may just be to have very clear parameters on what can be done and what can't. That's what a GM would do anyway. I just worry that that takes some of the creativity (which is the fun of RP'ing) out of it.

[Sudanna]

A rigorously-defined setting can be fun. Or it can be restrictive. One thing to do is involve prospective players in the world-building process.

[Slawbug]

I'd like to advocate for the GM idea in tandem with the ground rules idea. The GM has the power to intervene, retroactively if necessary, if someone goes out of bounds. (And someone will. Very, very badly.) But there's no need to wait for the GM to do (or approve) anything, since most posts will be fine, and when a post isn't, other players will mostly realize it immediately. If the GM is committed enough to check the thread twice a day on most days I think that'd be plenty.

[Slawbug]

Also, new idea:

 

TOO MANY COOKS RP

[BMA]

most posts will be fine, and when a post isn't, other players will mostly realize it immediately.

 

What can the GM do when they find an inappropriate post ?

[Slawbug]

Dictate the reality of the RP as they see fit, in order to avoid the problem -- just like a GM would in an in-person game.

 

But I mean seriously, all you need to do is replace "that guy who kills everyone" with "TM's rakshasa" and Too Many Cooks basically is a SW RP

[Actaeon]

Alternatively, perhaps the GM wouldn't intervene so much as be brought in when there's a complaint. That is, another player could appeal a move that seemed out of line (like running across an Ur-Drakon canister right off the bat). They wouldn't be obliged to make judgement calls on every post, but would be appointed the final arbiter in disputes.

[Goldengirl]

Too many cooks may spoil the RP, Slarty, but they have basically every setting...

 

My image of the GM is someone who is used sparingly. Basically, having a preset authority figure that everyone defers to for questions of fairness. In my experience, godmodders have almost always been able to argue some way that they're fair, to the point where everyone else just gets frustrated and quits. That, I think, is undesirable. Not saying that that extreme solution would crop up, but minor issues inevitably will.

[Blxz]

Blxz finds every cool canister, wins the internets. Roleplay over.

 

 

Although, I'd be cool doing a geneforge thing. It is by far the most engaging setting for me out of all the spiderweb scenarios. Something in it just resonates with me. Maybe it is the politics?

[Dintiradan]

Nioca and I were brainstorming a potential RP back in (checks PMs) early 2012. It never got past the early early planning stages, but here are a few things we discussed about how it would be managed. I've generalized them to not be setting-specific, maybe they will help:

 

- Have players submit their character/faction/whatever on the OoC thread for communal approval before the RP even begins.

- An emphasis that disputes are handled via the OoC thread, rather than starting an arms race in the IC thread. Some voting or veto system would be required. Of course, this becomes simpler but more dictatorial once you have a GM.

- A setting that encourages player-controlled characters/factions/whatever to interact with each other, rather than players building their own supporting casts and focusing solely on them.

- To keep the plot moving, IC would be divided into 'chapters', each chapter having its own theme. A prompt, basically. Players would have to incorporate the theme into their writing for the chapter. This is the only idea we had that required a GM, though there's probably a way to do it with voting or something. Also, time limits (albeit generous ones) for each chapter, to ensure that the entire storyline does eventually end.

- Some form of posting limit. Having some players post double or triple the amounts others did has been a problem in the past. Exactly how do this and make everyone happy, and foolproof the system against dropouts, would be tricky.

 

Bringing RPs back here is something I've wanted to do for quite a while, but there's a lot of things I want to get around to doing, and there's always been one reason or another to put it off. Also, each time I revisit the idea, I rethink how I want to implement it. For instance, after reading the rules for Ben Robbins's Microscope, I starting thinking about how to repurpose the rules for an RP here. Maybe start RPs off with players creating a Palette?

 

(Of course, there's also the question of "Why not just play Microscope itself, or something like it...")

 

Anyway, bit of a late night ramble, but hope this helps.

[adc.]

Blxz finds every cool canister, wins the internets. Roleplay over.

 

stop right there criminal scum

 

The unmistakable effects of canisters. Or just blame it on the fluffy turtles.

[Alorael at Large]

Microscope becomes not very fun if you have a huge group, at least in my experience. It would be fun and interesting to have several Microscopes going at once in groups of 4-5. The game works great online except for the actual roleplayed scenes, and I'd imagine those are no worse than any regular RP. Bonus points for reasonable rules to limit stupidity and an overarching structure that makes it not matter so much.

 

—Alorael, who could also see a couple of bad apples really making Microscope not fun. Sure, you can ignore apocalyptic catastrophes destroying everything you've built, even if they're recurring, but eventually it gets old to know that every history you make ends in fire and ruin because someone likes kicking sandcastles.

[JustifiedGlory]

Also, new idea:

 

TOO MANY COOKS RP

no one can help us now

[gem helper]

to be honest, i don't know how much GMs contribute to forums RP. either way, the problem that needs to be solved is someone playing to win, or in bad faith, or in a way that creates a hostile environment - basically one person having a different take on the goals and rules of the whole thing than most or all of their fellow posters.

that's a problem that needs to be solved by that person being made to back off and accept the consensus view, or by the consensus view changing to accomodate them, or at worst by removing them outright. all of those are things that are solved as easily by a crowd as by a single person; having a single person just obligates them to be the one who does the yelling when yelling needs done.

and when you're on a moderated forum like sw, the whole "gm who's only called in to punish major infractions of the unwritten rules" thing is the case by default - someone being a jerk is cause for normal forums moderation to be called in, and is already part of that person's unpaid job. functionally, the mods/admins already behave this way, and probably more objectively than anyone involved in the action could.

 

also, it warms the cockles of my heart to hear that sprinting up the (nonexistent) tech tree is still the problem to beat with faction-based forums rp, not gonna lie.

[Slawbug]

and when you're on a moderated forum like sw, the whole "gm who's only called in to punish major infractions of the unwritten rules" thing is the case by default - someone being a jerk is cause for normal forums moderation to be called in, and is already part of that person's unpaid job. functionally, the mods/admins already behave this way, and probably more objectively than anyone involved in the action could.

This is not actually the case. Mods can't really help with the sort of disagreements that will come up in an RP. If someone spazzes out and starts insulting other players or spamming, sure. But I think that's unlikely on SW today... If someone disrespects the player group consensus on some issue, or does ridiculous things with their tech tree, that's not really something mods can respond to. Mods can't make anyone listen to reason within the context of an RP.

 

In theory a GM and player consensus should both have similar impact, but in practice, player consensus is messy and slow. If you have the sort of players who are going to do ridiculous things in-game, they are probably also going to argue their case a lot, not accept a "player group consensus" when just a few people have weighed in, etc. Alternately, even good faith disagreements with good faith discussion can really derail things if you have to wait for a consensus among people with different posting frequencies.

 

In other words, the main reason to have a GM (or designated disagreement-resolver) is to keep the flow of the game going. Interruption in flow is probably the #1 reason RPs die early. I think that's worth guarding against.

[Lilith]

This is not actually the case. Mods can't really help with the sort of disagreements that will come up in an RP. If someone spazzes out and starts insulting other players or spamming, sure. But I think that's unlikely on SW today... If someone disrespects the player group consensus on some issue, or does ridiculous things with their tech tree, that's not really something mods can respond to. Mods can't make anyone listen to reason within the context of an RP.

 

well i mean we could in principle tell people to play nice or else not post in a thread any more but outside of extreme cases i am not sure if anyone actually wants to put in the time and effort needed to enforce that consistently and endure the inevitable bad blood that would result, by which i mean probably nobody would be caught dead doing that

[Slawbug]

Outside of extreme cases that's pretty tricky. In theory there are things that could be done, but in practice the restraint that we attach to using moderator powers means our ability to use them will not always line up with what the RP needs. So, yeah, it's not that mods are irrelevant, but we definitely aren't a comprehensive solution to the stuff that will come up with an RP.

[Alorael at Large]

I now intend to use administrative tools to meta-godmode. I can not only flout the will of the majority, I can modify posts and even accounts to back me up!

 

—Alorael, who can't believe he's been missing out on this prime example of abuse of power. And he's sure everyone else is excited too, because if anyone isn't that's easily rectified with a little bit of enhanced interrogation post editing.

[Actaeon]

I would support moving ahead with a character based Geneforge RP hosted on Spidweb and moderated by Goldengirl.

[Slawbug]

I support that IFF all her moderation actions are written as if performed by the Hunters.

[gem helper]

This is not actually the case. Mods can't really help with the sort of disagreements that will come up in an RP. If someone spazzes out and starts insulting other players or spamming, sure. But I think that's unlikely on SW today... If someone disrespects the player group consensus on some issue, or does ridiculous things with their tech tree, that's not really something mods can respond to. Mods can't make anyone listen to reason within the context of an RP.

 

In theory a GM and player consensus should both have similar impact, but in practice, player consensus is messy and slow. If you have the sort of players who are going to do ridiculous things in-game, they are probably also going to argue their case a lot, not accept a "player group consensus" when just a few people have weighed in, etc. Alternately, even good faith disagreements with good faith discussion can really derail things if you have to wait for a consensus among people with different posting frequencies.

 

In other words, the main reason to have a GM (or designated disagreement-resolver) is to keep the flow of the game going. Interruption in flow is probably the #1 reason RPs die early. I think that's worth guarding against.

i mean, i agree that the way i stated that suggested the idea of a moderator getting involved outside of extreme circumstances and that's incorrect, but as far as i'm concerned a GM getting involved outside of extreme circumstances is going to generate bad blood pretty quickly anyway. i dunno; i think forums rp working and sustaining itself is always on some level a crapshoot and other than having firm and collectively respected rules and standards there's not a lot you can do to help that.

 

like, a few things do help to maintain a permeable but stable core group of active players and help keep barriers to entry relatively low, but they're sorta things that can be done in a relatively anarchic and community-based fashion just as easily as one with an established power structure. i'd suggest that a formal GM rather than just an informal cartel introduces a related problem: things can be stalled by GM interest or ability to engage, and switching out GMs sort of collectively weakens the action in a bunch of little ways. like, it's doable, but plan around it causing some problems.

 

i've seen forums rp work and not work equally well with a formal gm and no formal gm, and with formal rules and no formal rules, and i don't think any of them is exactly a magic bullet or poison. my own experience leads me to favor no gm but fairly hard rules, established both in advance and on the go, but i don't think i'm convinced that always works or even that it works markedly more often than with a gm and no rules (or a gm and rules, or no gm and no rules). i guess it comes down to what exact kind of bad blood you prefer to deal with.

 

to be perfectly honest, if there's one factor that has always been a major one for forums rp that i've been part of, it's schedule compatibility. you want the biggest collective amount of free time in a forums rp to come about a third of the way into its lifetime and last about half of its lifetime. (in other words, the climax of things should come during a time at which people generally have spare time, but represents the last point at which delays are going to kill the action.) this is why a core group of players generally define things - they include people who not only have the most interest but whose schedules are the most flexible.

 

finals seasons and crunch times are going to be lulls in the action, and breaks and slow periods are going to be peaks of potential activity (and that can actually sink you worse - an rp where nobody involved has more than an hour a day is rocky but an rp where everyone with time has nothing to do sinks like a lead balloon). if there's anything that causes me agita about the idea of a gm it's that a gm is an individual person with an individual life, and their time commitments can go a ways towards defining everyone else's potential time commitments. it's something that can trivially shear off a little knot of european or australian players if you're not careful. maybe two or three people with one doing most of the gming under normal circumstances might be better?

[Slawbug]

things can be stalled by GM interest or ability to engage

that's definitely never happened, no, nope, I never did that and definitely not here

 

um... yeah, good point

[gem helper]

that's definitely never happened, no, nope, I never did that and definitely not here

 

um... yeah, good point

it can be really hard for someone GMing to accept that they need to hand off power for a little while, for perfectly understandable reasons (don't underestimate people's unwillingness to look flaky as a source of flakiness + sort of proprietary mama-bear feelings about other people's ability to handle the world), and the result of that can be it being too little and too late. it's something i've succumbed to myself, and something to look out for. and, again, a good reason to have people to pick up slack - that way it's not an obligation on the GM to keep perfect tabs on their own schedule and level of commitment, which is very stressful

[Actaeon]

Spider bus, spider bus, goes wherever a spider bus goes...

[Goldengirl]

Here's my summation of thoughts.

 

There will be a play-by-post RP. The voters were fairly mixed as to the setting, but Geneforge seems to be favored a bit, and it being a character RP seems almost universally favored. So, I'm going to think about the specifics a bit more, but it will be set in the Geneforge-verse. It won't be in the direct plotline of the Geneforge RPs (it'll be either really far in the past/future or in a really separate area) but the general gist will be the same.

 

To keep it fair for the non-Geneforge people, I'll post the basic lore for the universe in the first post of the thread.

 

I'll be the GM, with this following stipulation,

I support that IFF all her moderation actions are written as if performed by the Hunters.

 

My intention is to be pretty hands-off, though. I'll post some handy rules of thumb in the OOC thread to help in that regard.