Ideologies of Geneforge (4)

[Suspicious Vlish]

Lord Safey:

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Why accept diplomacy when your wining?

We observe why in GF4. When one side is taking heavy losses, it will resort to more dangerous and desperate measures. The Shapers could easily have averted such a disaster by merely being diplomatic. Perhaps instead of sabre rattling, the Shapers could have tried to arrange a truce. They held all the cards, after all.

 

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Did the rebels try to engage in diplomacy when they where wining?don't think so. It was all crush the horrible

shapers.

Attempts at diplomacy were made by the serviles, which were ruthlessly crushed. Time and time again, the Shapers have shown themselves to have no respect whatsoever for dealing with independent humans or creations.

 

When the very act of being an independent and free thinking creation/human is a crime to your opponent, its a little hard to open negotations with him.

 

Rebel servile: "I think that we should sit down and talk about this before..."

 

Shaper: "No! You're not allowed to think for yourself, creation!" *fireball*

 

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Don't think they are so horrible considering I have met more refugees complain about the rebellion then the shapers.

A lot of Americans complained about the North during the civil war. Some complained bitterly about resistance to the Nazis, because it created chaos and disorder, and provoked collective punishment. The anger observed by some civilians in GF4 is misguided. The chaos is a product of the Shapers. Merely because the Rebels are fighting back does not make them responsible.

 

A rape victim who fights back is not responsible for the black eye she receives.

 

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People miss the stabilty and way of life shapers provided,

Some do. Some don't.

 

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all the rebelion has brought was destruction

I'm going to be honest, and make an admission. I used to think the way you do. Merely check out my posts in the Geneforge forums less than a year ago. I was a staunch loyalist supporter, and used the exact same arguments you are. The Shapers brought order, the creations and rebel humans were a bunch of trouble makers, how dare they rebel.

 

However, I then had a 'quantum leap' in ideology. The Rebellion is a product of the Shapers. The Rebellion continues to exist because of the Shapers. The destruction rife throughout the land is of Shaper origin.

 

Everything bad that has occurred in Geneforge has its root in Shaper arrogance, intolerance, and decadence. I can't go into the details now, as its getting late, but I suggest you think back through the series. Why did the serviles originally rebels? What about the Drayks? Do they have a legitimate cause? Have the Shapers responded justifiably to their grievances?

[Lord Safey]

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Everything bad that has occurred in Geneforge has its root in Shaper arrogance, intolerance, and decadence. I can't go into the details now, as its getting late, but I suggest you think back through the series. Why did the serviles originally rebels? What about the Drayks? Do they have a legitimate cause? Have the Shapers responded justifiably to their grievances?

Who unleashed the unbound? Who tried to rebuild the geneforge? Who keeps growing more arrogant with each generation? Who escalitates the war? Who sends out countless rouge creations? When did the current rebellion or their predecccsors (takers in genefore 1) try for diplomacy? Shapers have made their mistakes but they are learning from them mabey not to your degree of satsifaction but they have some. You can aruge that the creation side fights for survial but couldn't you make the same claim for the shaper. The rebellion is mess the shapers made true but that would make it their duty to clean it up and if that means by crushing it so be it.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

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Waylander:
Would it be reasonable to expect a Jew to 'diplomatically' approach the Germans during the Holocaust?

They did.

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Time and time again, the Shapers have shown themselves to have no respect whatsoever for dealing with independent humans or creations.

Intelligent serviles are considered rogues and are thus also barred from existence. The fact that the Shapers approached a rogue servile (the PC) shows that they are willling to forgive their former enemies. The fact that no drakon has ever approached a shaper shows that they have no interest whatsoever in peace, and that they have no intention of stopping until all Shapers are dead. The drakons are clearly the bigger barrier to peace here, not the Shapers.

[Retlaw May]

All the rebellion is doing is justifying the conservative hardliners among the Shapers. When the Shapers win the Rebellion causes them to take a firmer hand and more controll. Evolution of a society cannot always be forced. I believe that the Shapers were taking small steady steps as more among them felt a need for gradual change, but the Rebellion knocked them all back so the hardliners could say, "Hey look, we are totally justified!"

[Suspicious Vlish]

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Who unleashed the unbound? Who tried to rebuild the geneforge? Who keeps growing more arrogant with each generation? Who escalitates the war? Who sends out countless rouge creations? When did the current rebellion or their predecccsors (takers in genefore 1) try for diplomacy?

I'll repeat this again: Diplomacy was tried twice by the Awakened, and they were crushed. Why do you think Learned Pinner, the former leader of the Awakened, joined the Rebellion?

And I don't exactly see how a Drayk or Drakon could engage in diplomacy. They are forbidden to exist. How do you negotiate with an enemy who forbids your very existence? It didn't work out so well for the Jews, did it now? Watch 'Uprising', and then get back to me.

As to the Rebellion having Shaper roots:

1. Shaper carelessness allowed powerful knowledge to fall into the hands of its Creations.

2. Shaper callousness directly resulted in the formation of independent serviles, many of whom had a dislike/intense hatred for Shapers, and justifiably so. These serviles were the seed of the Rebellion.

3. Shaper genocide caused a logical progression of the Drayks allying with the serviles.

4. The Shaper's inability to negotiate, despite the fact that they hold all the cards, merely encourages more desperate acts by the Drakons.

Those are some of the biggest blunders that the Shapers have made, just off the top of my head. The Rebellion is a direct product of the Shapers.

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Who unleashed the unbound?

The Drakons. Why did they release them? Because the Shapers want to wipe them out of existence. Once again, a rape victim isn't responsible for her black eye if she struggles.

If the Shapers had merely accepted the existence of Drayks and Drakons, would the Drakons needed to have unleashed the Unbound? I'll let you ponder that one.

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Who tried to rebuild the geneforge?

Why did the Drakons need to build the Geneforge? To become strong enough to survive against a genocidal regime. Again, if the Shapers had merely accepted the Drakons, and negotiated with them as equals, then there would have been no incentive for the Drayk to Drakon to Ur-Drakon to SuperDrakon push.

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Who keeps growing more arrogant with each generation?

What does arrogance got to do with this? The Jews also tended to be elitist, andlook down on the 'Goyim'. Does that mean that they were responsible for WW2? Does that justify their genocide?

Arrogance isn't a crime. And the Drakons are arrogant precisely because of the Shapers. The Drakons have been forced to reshape themselves to survive Shaper genocide.

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Who escalitates the war? W

Again, the Rebels are doing whatever they can to survive. The SHAPERS escalate the war by being completely unwilling to negotiate a truce, or even remotely consider the terms of the Rebellion. Once again, a rape victim is not responsible for her black eye when she fights back.

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ho sends out countless rouge creations?

There would be no need to send out rogue creations if the Shapers weren't on a mission to wipe all independent, sapient life off the the face of the planet.

If the Shapers truly had the peoples' interest close to their heart, they would negotiate with the Rebellion. They would attempt to establish equal rights for humans and creations alike. However, they refuse to do this, because the well being of their citizens in incidental.

The Shapers are on top, and they want to stay there. They are selfish, greedy, elitist, power-hungry megalomaniacs. They make the Drakons look like angels.

[Goldengirl]

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Originally written by Retlaw May:
All the rebellion is doing is justifying the conservative hardliners among the Shapers. When the Shapers win the Rebellion causes them to take a firmer hand and more controll. Evolution of a society cannot always be forced. I believe that the Shapers were taking small steady steps as more among them felt a need for gradual change, but the Rebellion knocked them all back so the hardliners could say, "Hey look, we are totally justified!"

Funny how all evolution towards creation rights, and general evolution as a society, has happened during the Rebellion. Also, to add to last response of Suspicous Vlish's, the Shapers also released rogue creations, like on the Forsaken Lands. Poor spies the Shapers thought were Rebel farmers.

[Lord Safey]

Shapers at best influence the rebels moves. No one but you can force your hand. If I remeber correctly the takers try to get you to assiante the leaders of the awaken in GF1 the only group in the entire game that want diplomacy what where you saying about the shapers refuseing diplomacy? The Rebellion wanted them dead more so then the shapers.

Granted the shapers became complacent and if wasn't for that the rebellion wouldn't exist. However this rebellion only proved what the shapers said all the long. Every bad thing that the shapers said would happen if outsiders gained signigficant shapeing abilities has happened.

They messed up (no one is perfect) and they got a bloody nosed for it but they will clean up the mess they made by crushing the rebellion

[Suspicious Vlish]

Lord Safey:

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Shapers at best influence the rebels moves.

I'm afraid I don't agree. The reaction of the Drayks, Drakons and independent serviles is both highly predictable, and completely understandable. If a superpower deemed that you didn't have a right to exist, and underwent a campaign to exterminate your kind, wouldn't you fight back by any means necessary?

 

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If I remeber correctly the takers try to get you to assiante the leaders of the awaken in GF1 the only group in the entire game that want diplomacy

I do remember the attempted assassination, although I don't remember the justification. Either way, it's important to note that the Awakened's attempts to negotiate with the Shapers failed. Their demands to be treated with equality were laughed at.

 

So in the end, the Takers were right.

 

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Granted the shapers became complacent

Complacent isn't the right word. Idiotic is more appropriate. Generating hatred amongst two intelligent races (the serviles and drayks), and then abandoning them on an island with forbidden technology, is the very height of stupidity. It doesn't take much foresight to guess what will happen.

 

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However this rebellion only proved what the shapers said all the long. Every bad thing that the shapers said would happen if outsiders gained signigficant shapeing abilities has happened.

You're only looking at half the scenario. Shaping has been used by outsiders in such destructive ways because they are trying to fight off Shaper aggression.

 

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They messed up (no one is perfect)

You seem to forget that their 'messing up' isn't an isolated incident. They messed up in GF1, GF2, GF3, and GF4. They not only started the fire, but continued to add fuel.

 

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and they got a bloody nosed for it but they will clean up the mess they made by crushing the rebellion

And you've entered a bloody cycle. They may crush one Rebellion, but what about the next? And the next? War may build Empires, but diplomacy is required to maintain it.

 

The fact of the matter is that the idealism of creation autonomy has caught on. Serviles have realized that they can function as independent and free beings. The humans have realized that they can rise up against their former masters.

 

You can't unring a bell. You can't reverse an ideology, even with the most extreme violence.

[Lord Safey]

No but the empire is learning the shapers must mantian a sense of strength. They need to use a shoot first ask questions later. DEstroy the rebellion then find out why the rebellion came to be and the solve the problem.If you read the shaper ending it shows that they learned from their mistakes.

The attempted assation by the takes only proves to me that the rebellion wants peace no more then shapers do if they did they would have least have let the awaken alone but no they were as desperate as the shapers to destroy them. The drakons consider the shapers on the same level as food do you negotiate with your food? I don't deny the shapers don't want diplomacy neither does the rebellion espically since they did as much to crush any part that wanted diplomacy as the shapers did.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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If you read the shaper ending it shows that they learned from their mistakes.

And there was peace... until the next rebellion.

 

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The attempted assation by the takes only proves to me that the rebellion wants peace no more then shapers do if they did they would have least have let the awaken alone but no they were as desperate as the shapers to destroy them.

The Takers do not exist anymore at the time of G4. The one previous Taker you meet at the Freehold is old, tired, and broken. The situation in G4 is not what it was in previous Geneforges.

 

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The drakons consider the shapers on the same level as food do you negotiate with your food?

The drakons do not consider Shapers as food. They see them as enemies. Eating slain foes is a lot different than eating ornks. The drakons would probably negotiate if they held a position and a reason do to so.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Retlaw May]

When the Shapers win the Rebellion, all the Rebellion did was make the Shapers move backwards to the way that the original goal of the Rebellion.

 

Waylander, a rape victim isn't responsible for their black eye, but they are responsible if they go out and rape innocent people as a reaction. The Unbound project rapes innocent people. And I may have forgotten but I don't remember Learned Pinner in G3 or G4 (I'm not sure), but if she wasn't, how can you be so sure she went to help the Rebellion? Oh and arrogance isn't a crime, but the actions that the Drakons commit atrocities because of it are. And if the Rebellion truly had the well being of the people in mind, they wouldn't commit so many attrocities.

[Lord Safey]

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Originally written by Dikiyobot:
Originally by Lord Safey:

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If you read the shaper ending it shows that they learned from their mistakes.

And there was peace... until the next rebellion.

Oh and what are the dryaks doing? Haveing tea parties. Their is a reason the rebellion is crumbling under pressure. when the same pressure was applied to the shapers they held strong.

Second what are they terms for their to be negotiation their have to be terms thats both sides will accept. The outsider humans, serviles, and dryaks might accept a peace. Though the drakons and shapers never would. They are will to use the same force you critized the shapers to stop their own rebellions. Face it the rebellion is crumbling. While the war was still in their favor did the shapers crumble? They lack cohesion the shapers have. Take a look at the effects of canisters and geneforges. Those same genes are employed in creations mabey at first the rebellion was what you said it was but now all it is a mad crazed mob. Can you walk up and negotiate with an Unbound?No and thats what the the drakons and even some of the other rebellion species want to become. Thats what the shapers fight to stop. Mabey they did cause but thats what they fight now.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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Oh and what are the dryaks doing? Haveing tea parties. Their is a reason the rebellion is crumbling under pressure. when the same pressure was applied to the shapers they held strong.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Could you explain in more detail?

 

My point was actually that the Shapers aren't necessarily learning from their mistakes. Instead, they're making bigger ones.

 

Keeping a stranglehold on everything and killing every creation they don't like isn't the solution--it's what caused the Rebellion in the first place, and it's caused rebellions before this one and will cause rebellions after this one. The Shapers could approach the unhappy humans, independent serviles, and drayks. The Shapers could negotiate with them and make a few compromises. The bulk of the Rebellion is then gone and the Shapers have a much easier time getting to and dealing with the drakons, if they can't negotiate with them.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

What I meant about the comment about the dryaks is that their rebeling from the drakons, at least some are and the ones that aren't don't seem to be to happy about their postion in life. The tribe of cryodryaks that rebeled from the drakons, they sent a force to destroy them. Where is this moral high ground. seems to me that the rebelion is makeing the same mistakes what makes them so morally better. So when I go talk to a drakon "why are you rebelliong against the shapers" He responds with "The wish contiune their oppresive rain and wipe us out" Then i ask "Why are the cryodryaks rebeling from you?" you tell me the response.

 

Some of the shapers have already showed that they are willing to have mercy on the rebel humans. Also in the shaper ending they enter a truce with the rebellion. The shaper ending says that they study the reason for the rebellion , learned from their mistaks, and took steps to prevent another. Which proves your assumption that the shapers will continue to make the same mistakes in the past incorrect.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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Where is this moral high ground. seems to me that the rebelion is makeing the same mistakes

Fair enough. Giving the drakons the moral high ground was never my intention.

 

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Also in the shaper ending they enter a truce with the rebellion.

A temporary one. They intended to go back later, just as soon as they had the resources and willpower to spare.

 

"So a temporary peace was declared...But no one truly believed that the war was over...The rebels never slept easy. They knew that, one day, the Shapers would come."

 

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The shaper ending says that they study the reason for the rebellion , learned from their mistaks, and took steps to prevent another.

It does not say that they learned from their mistakes. It says they learned to be even stricter and more controlling. And it worked for several centuries. But then, there were two centuries between the abandonment of Sucia Island and the start of a rebellion that lost the Shapers half a continent for a while and the Ashen Isles completely (at least until they fight another war to get it back). The Shapers can't control everyone and everything forever--the Shaper ending clearly implies that there is another rebellion. And how big and devastating will that rebellion be, considering that Shaping progress will continue and the creations thrown around will be even more deadly than kyshakks, war tralls, and wingbolts?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

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Originally written by Dikiyobot:
Originally by Lord Safey:

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Where is this moral high ground. seems to me that the rebelion is makeing the same mistakes

Fair enough. Giving the drakons the moral high ground was never my intention.

If that is case the rebellion has gotten away from their ideals then, why join them I find a that to be a level hipocrisy. The shapers at least hold true to their ideals unlike the hipocritic rebellion. If what you say is true about the shapers makeing the same mistakes over and over (which I disagree with you on), at least they can handle said mistakes then the rebellion can (since we agreed they are makeing the same ones).

Second the ending says they unlike other rebellions the shapered remebered and taught it to appretince shapers. If they just became stricter then why teach that? Sure they became stricter but they lost their arrogance and learned new ways of undermining a rebellion or chances of a rebellion. The rebellion is makeing the same mistakes the shapers did (in a since they are becomeing what they are fighting)and lack the stability the shapers do.

[Lilith]

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Originally written by Lord Safey:
The shapers at least hold true to their ideals unlike the hipocritic rebellion.

Only because they haven't started losing yet. See the Rebel ending for what happens when they do.

[Lord Safey]

Do the rebels go back to their ideals when they start winning?

 

keep in mind that the shapers where intially loseing the war. Mabey not as bad as they do when the unbound where released but it wasn't a pinic. They still held to their values. Another thing is I pointed out the ending where shapers learn from their mistakes and you blow it off(one of my points). You point out that shapers throw of their values if they get desperate enough by point out the rebel ending. If you blow of my point why shouldn't I blow off yours. To answer your question yes I admit the shapers proably wouldn't hold to their values if they became desperate enough. However the drakons have treated other species like crap since GF2 regardless of the situation despite the fact the claim to be fight for creation rights. The rebellion isn't fighintg for creation rights its fighting for Drakon rights. They have commited every crime the shapers have and they don't do that to maintian stability they do it becasue they want powr. The greed is evident. If I was a rebel human I quite my post, If i was servile or a dryak I would flee. The drakons have made it evident they want to replace the shaper empire with a Drakon empire. To do that they have to kill many innocent people. For what creations (with excption of drakons) won't have their rights they would have traded one master for a harsher master.

[Retlaw May]

This is the arguemen that we proShapers (or at least not pro-Rebels) make, but they never agree. This topic has become the same as so many others that I sometimes wonder why new topics are even formed. They will all end up like this or similar.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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keep in mind that the shapers where intially loseing the war. Mabey not as bad as they do when the unbound where released but it wasn't a pinic. They still held to their values.

And yet they are willing to let the Geneforge-altered, canister-using, independent-minded servile PC live and even give him a position of power after the war (provided you go for the Shaper ending, of course). The Shapers don't believe in self-shaping or independent creations, so allowing the servile PC to live is not holding to their values. And that's while the Shapers were winning.

 

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Another thing is I pointed out the ending where shapers learn from their mistakes and you blow it off(one of my points). You point out that shapers throw of their values if they get desperate enough by point out the rebel ending. If you blow of my point why shouldn't I blow off yours.

Huh?

 

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Do the rebels go back to their ideals when they start winning?

The humans, serviles, and drayks never betrayed their ideals. Only the drakons did. And during the stalemate of the Trakovite ending, the drakons do back down against the pressure from the rest of the rebellion.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Typo.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

If you voted Shaper or Rebel you are wrong. Either of the remaining is correct.

[Lord Safey]

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Originally written by Dikiyobot:
Originally by Lord Safey:

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If you read the shaper ending it shows that they learned from their mistakes.

And there was peace... until the next rebellion.
.

Every time I poin out that the shaper ending shows that they learned from their mistakes you and others blow it off. Mabey they didn't do it in away you find satisfactory. It does state that they did learn from their mistakes. You also stated (think it was you) that the same ending though another rebellion was around the corner. I never saw any thing like that implied, could you show the spcefic text, I lost my file with the shaper ending. Dealing with a alter human/intellegent creation is indeed against one of their rules. They so far remained true to others, like not shapeing something that can'r be controlled, being careful not upset the ecology and so forth. Someone pointed out that drakons are they only ones who don't hold to the values, I though they were the leaders of the rebellion. Why hasn't try rebellion tryed to stop them then?

[Lilith]

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Originally written by Lord Safey:
Every time I poin out that the shaper ending shows that they learned from their mistakes you and others blow it off. Mabey they didn't do it in away you find satisfactory. It does state that they did learn from their mistakes.

You might want to go back and re-read the Shaper ending text: what they "learned" was that they had to be even stricter with their creations, which was what had caused the rebellion in the first place.

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Someone pointed out that drakons are they only ones who don't hold to the values, I though they were the leaders of the rebellion. Why hasn't try rebellion tryed to stop them then?

Uh, they do try. They try and succeed (to an extent) in the Trakovite ending, and they try and fail in the Rebel ending.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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could you show the spcefic text, I lost my file with the shaper ending.

Yes. But first let Dikiyoba point out how hypocritical it is to accuse others of blowing you off when you didn't even check to make sure you had your facts right.

 

[Retlaw May]

But it does imply centuries of relatively peaceful rule. You can't expect for there to be peace for eternity in any large government. Most governments in our world have had a rebellion in some form or another in the last century (yes that includes the US).

[Dikiyoba]

Of course, but you also have to consider what the next rebellion will look like. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on, but here's what I think.

 

This rebellion devastated half a continent, killed or displaced probably thousands of people, and had the potential to unleash a superweapon that could completely destroy the other half of the continent and kill and displace thousands more people with ease. As the Shapers get more controlling, only harsher methods will work to overthrow them. As the Shapers get more shaping skill, even more deadly creations will be used in war. When the Shapers lose control next, the resulting rebellion will be worse than this one was.

 

But if the Shapers weren't so arrogant and controlling, the next rebellion wouldn't be as bad. How many humans would actually take up arms against the Shapers if the Shapers listened and responded to their complaints instead? How many serviles and drayks would choose to fight the Shapers if they could coexist peacefully with them? Not nearly so many, and the rebellion would be much smaller and less devastating.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Waylander - Could you please change your PDN? It is confusingly similar to our esteemed moderator Delicious Vlish. Several times now I have been on the verge of PMing him in response to some asinine comment, only to notice that it was you, rendering the comment moot.

 

Also, I'm amazed at the level of compliance and submission demonstrated in this thread. Unless this is just a matter of defending a random position, it doesn't bode well for the future. Well, unless you are in the ruling class. Then you have a huge flock of sheep to dominate.

[Men are from Slars]

I had no idea that was you, Waylander.

 

That said: Salmon, don't make me change my PDN to Nutritious Vlish.

[Lord Safey]

Empires will a lways experince rebellions. You have nothing to prove that the next rebellion will be anywhere near as effective. Name me a nation/goverment/orgination that makes everyone happy. Shapers as indiviuals are strongly opposed to accepting you. Lots of them can't stand you and their are some who don't attack you based on orders alone. The drakons as a soceity had no qualms at creating the unbound. Their orginal super weapon was the geneforge. That apparntly wasn't enough for them. They got their super weapons and they still want more. The shapers built a geneforge 10s if not 100s of times more powerful. Yet they turned it down, if they hadn't turn down such power where would your rebellion be. One personw ho used the geneforge had the power of a whole generation of unbound. Had they shapers shared power like you say (the orginal geneforge) where would be now. Check the GF1 ending one where you leave the geneforge intact. Thats what the shapers want to prevent and thats what the rebellion brings. You seem to have the mistaken impresion the rebellion brings freedom.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

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You have nothing to prove that the next rebellion will be anywhere near as effective.

And you have no evidence that it won't. I do know, however, that war tralls can kill more people than thahds, and that whatever comes next will be able to kill more people than war tralls.

 

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Name me a nation/goverment/orgination that makes everyone happy.

There aren't any. But other nations/governments/organizations have ways for unhappy people to express their complaints and have something done about them besides taking up arms than the Shapers' current regime, let alone the Shaper society in the Shaper ending.

 

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The drakons as a soceity had no qualms at creating the unbound. Their orginal super weapon was the geneforge. That apparntly wasn't enough for them. They got their super weapons and they still want more.

Why do they do that? Why does the rest of the rebellion let them get away with that? Because it works. Without them, the rebellion would have been crushed. Since the Shapers continued to be stricter and more controlling, the next major rebellion will feature people and/or creations exactly like that or worse because it's the only way they can make progress.

 

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Shapers as indiviuals are strongly opposed to accepting you. Lots of them can't stand you and their are some who don't attack you based on orders alone.

So? There are plenty of rebels who still fight for creation rights and greater freedom. But because of the drakons, you've dismissed the entire rebellion. Enough Shapers have decided to accept the servile PC that Shapers as a whole have accepted an independent creation.

 

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You seem to have the mistaken impresion the rebellion brings freedom.

The rebellion at least has freedom as a goal. The humans, serviles, and drayks are doing a fairly good job of sticking to that, too. The drakons were doing an okay job of that as well until a few months before the PC arrived, when the drakons realized how badly they were losing. The Shapers (except for a few exiles) don't care about anything besides themselves and their ways. Ever.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

I need to object to the notion that Drakons have a collective agenda known as a society. There is no evidence in the games that they have anything more than a rough agreement to do battle against a specific enemy, and they use all resources to combat that enemy with extreme prejudice. If there is any resource extraction or refinement to be done, it is farmed out to servants.

 

Perhaps I missed the part in the game where it describes Drakon society, so please enlighten me.

[Retlaw May]

Dikiyoba, how can you condemn someone for pointing out that the next Rebellion was never pointed out in size, and then go on asuming that it is big? Also, the rebels didn't allow the Drakons to form the Unbound. They didn't know about the Unbound project. Even when you reveal it, only a few of the human leaders know of it at that point and they are the fanatically invested in the Rebellion.

 

You've got Litlia who "relearned" emotions (I got the feeling it was basically learning how to react to certain things) and Greta who is possibly one of the most hypocrytical characters of the game. Even if I had origanally had Rebel intent at the begining of the game, a person holding to true Rebellion ideology would not allow the Unbound to be made.

 

Greta (at Southforge):

text1 = "_Do not be a fanatic. Don't close your eyes. Don't make up your mind before you see both sides of an issue. And don't think there can be only one route to any goal._";

text2 = "_Someday, the rebellion may take the wrong course. And then we will count on the fresh and young, like you, to correct us. That is all. Now, back to your mission._";

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Retlaw May:

 

Quote:

Dikiyoba, how can you condemn someone for pointing out that the next Rebellion was never pointed out in size, and then go on asuming that it is big?

Because I attempted to give some reasons for why it will be big.

 

1. Those who can shape are getting better and better at it. As they get better, they can create a larger number of creations easier and make bigger, stronger creations. More creations and better creations means more people will get killed in future rebellions, unless both sides launch very specific, controlled attacks. We did not see either side caring too much about entire zones being blocked by mines, pylons, or unwatched creations in this game, so there is no reason to assume they will do so later.

 

2. The Shapers are so entrenched in their ways that they are ruthless to anyone who opposes them (even moreso after the rebellion). The only way to win victories against them is to be ruthless back. Spawners, Unbound, machinery, anything that creates a large number of creations to destroy everything in sight--they work. The human side of the rebellion, using more conventional tatics, was destroyed. The surviving rebels consider that army weak.

 

As Pirik says, Illya was lost "Through the brute force and brutality of the Shapers, and the softness of the humans." Pirik says the last word as if it puts a foul taste in her mouth. "The rebellion in the south was always mostly humans. They lack the strength of the creations, of the drayks and drakons. And the courage. Their army was routed and destroyed outside the ruins of Thornton, to the north."

 

Releasing powerful, mad rogues seems to work pretty well as a battle tactic, while "fighting fair" doesn't. The Shapers will spend the next several centuries putting down minor uprisings that don't go anywhere and then a group with the power and without the moral considerations (or with "higher" moral considerations) will start another continent-spanning rebellion.

 

Dikiyoba.

[yuma_bill]

People in positions of power usually strive for more power. The Shapers engage in harsher crackdowns. The Rebels (the Drakons at least) are prepared to unleash doomsday devices. This has all been discussed extensively on this thread.

 

But there's an alternative in GF4 that's not being discussed....and that's disarmament. Which is the position of the Trakovites.

 

People have said it's unrealistic since no one wants to give up the power of shaping. But really, only a handful of people hold the power of shaping...those trained in it, and those touched by the Geneforge. This is where the Trakovites have their foothold: the huge majority of the population gains no real benefit from shaping. And those are the people who might be willing to listen.

 

I like the gist of what Drewry said: "we may be naive, but we want people to believe in the strength of these ideas." Thing is, powerful ideas can change the course of history.

 

People in this thread have said that no one's going to give up their shaping power...but it was also said, in the past, that people who owned slaves wouldn't give up slavery. Well, times change, and they do so because people hear different ideas, think about them, and, sometimes, change their minds. There will always be resistance to change, and there will always be conflict...but when the dust settles, sometimes you have a established a new way of doing things.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by yuma_bill:
Words.

That's some mighty powerful stuff you said. You might be careful, sanity ain't too popular in these parts.

It's funny to me how we've moved from the original question "Which ideology do you agree with most?" to explaining to the Shaper worshippers that failure to greet the Shaper with open arms doesn't mean Rebel-puppet. Necessarily. I am sure there are some who enjoy strife for the sake of the fresh bodies daily generated. But most rational intelligent humans prefer to see a level playing field, where advantages are shared and disadvantages mitigated. I agree that removal of Shaping, in all forms, and those creatures that have been newly made, must be erased. Serviles may continue to exist, perhaps out of sentimentality since they so closely resemble my species. But the rest is unbalancing to nature.

Introduction of foreign fauna to an established ecosystem is a recipe for disaster, as has been proven time and time again. For the Shapers to have done so despite the outstanding evidence, or without doing small-scale independent research to determine the effect of each creation on nature, writes a true tale of their ability to make rational decisions.

While they may be technically able, they lack the ability to make decisions that have any long-term beneficial consequences to either themselves, or their surroundings.

Ah yuh.

[Lord Safey]

Adimtly the shapers might have another rebellion to deal with in a few centuries. However the war isn't even over and the Rebellion is already experincing its own rebellion. First off for a war to be big (like you mention) both sides have to be strong enough to be a significant threat. True the shapers will have more dangerous creations. However I doubt a new rebellion could get those shapeing abilities whole sale. This rebellion was pratically given shapeing abilitys by the shapers. Giveing drakons the ability to shape was the biggest mistake ever. In geneforge 3 the guy mines a forest on hamrony isle pays well for papers you consider trival. The shapers also undergo some reforms. They banned creation dueling and torturing creations. The also keep the ecolgy in mind when makeing new creations. So saying that the shapers don't keep people in mind at all is incorrect. Possibley they don't listen too outsiders as much as they could afford too. However I don't a petition would go over to well with the drakons.

 

P.S. I consider drakons a society because they have a set of rules and ranks.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lord Safey:

 

Quote:

Adimtly the shapers might have another rebellion to deal with in a few centuries.

My original point was, if the Shapers provoke another rebellion for the exact same reason as this one started, then they haven't learned anything. All they've done is repeat the exact same mistake over again, only worse than before.

 

Quote:

First off for a war to be big (like you mention) both sides have to be strong enough to be a significant threat. True the shapers will have more dangerous creations. However I doubt a new rebellion could get those shapeing abilities whole sale. This rebellion was pratically given shapeing abilitys by the shapers. Giveing drakons the ability to shape was the biggest mistake ever.

Right. No matter how hard the Shapers try, they are eventually going to slip up. And when they do, all of the people and intelligent creations they've oppressed over the years will take full advantage of that. Look how many and how quickly people jumped sides from Shaper to rebel when the option opened up. There were plenty of humans in the Awakened and Barzites of G2.

 

And even if the next rebellion is small, there will have been hundreds if not thousands of deaths of people and intelligent creations like the serviles Litalia had to kill, anyone who attempted to learn Shaping, anyone who ended up in a Barred location, anyone who questioned the Shapers laws too deeply, any Trakovite, and any drayk, gazer, etc. that the Shapers came across during the centuries of "peace". Is that the sort of society you want to live in?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:

And even if the next rebellion is small, there will have been hundreds if not thousands of deaths of people and intelligent creations like the serviles Litalia had to kill, anyone who attempted to learn Shaping, anyone who ended up in a Barred location, anyone who questioned the Shapers laws too deeply, any Trakovite, and any drayk, gazer, etc. that the Shapers came across during the centuries of "peace". Is that the sort of society you want to live in?

[/QB]

Its better then the alterntive. Which is either dead or drakon rule. Despite their faults amy of their laws are made with a good reason. You can claim the awaken or the traokvites fight for freedom but the rebellion is a differn't people group all together, they fight for vengence survial is mearly an excuse. The Drakons, dryaks, and even serviles fight for vengence. Vengence, no matter how justified, is nothing to base a nation on. The shapers fight to maintian order.

Second I see no justification for the Drakons unbound. They completed not one but three geneforges (drakon, north, and south) they still lose. Sure the intially lose some ground at the begining of the war due to suprise and introduction of new shapeing. However they made a come back despite the suprise and the advantage the geneforges was suppose to give them. The unbound is just another super weapon like the geneforge it will intially cause the shapers to lose some ground. They still have a whole another contient and western terretria (I western terrestria was ddevestaed not lose not sure about that though). The shapers will recover.

[Retlaw May]

I really don't get where you get that "many people jump sides quickly to the Rebellion" deal. As far as I know, the majority of the intellegent beings are still on the Shaper side. Just because they don't actively fight for the Shapers doesn't mean anything. The Rebellion is a minority with passion. I would argue how weak many of the human convictions are against the Shapers since more were willing to switch over to the Shapers once they saw the Rebels were losing.

[rantalot]

Can anyone provide quotes of shaper oppression of humans? They don’t rescue them sometimes, but that’s not really oppression. A human can’t start a fight with a shaper and expect to get the same punishment as fighting a normal human, but same goes in any liberal country if you fight a policeman. There are restrictions on freedom of speech, but even USA has restrictions and that’s like…the FIRST amendment. Shapers put down riots THE SAME WAY ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES. With force.

 

I am by no means trying to say that shapers are good. Odds are that if I lived in Geneforge world I would ***** about shapers day and night, I don’t however think they are bad enough to start a HUGE war over.

 

Everything written above is only true if you are a human. Yes I would fight tooth and nail if I was a drakon and odds are I would send out the unbound way before they did.