Missile Conclusions.

[Delicious Vlish]

In this thread, we touched on the physical resists and the need for ancillary effects in game.

 

I have decided to release some of my conclusions on missiles. While I haven't yet finished the game with a missile using Agent, I have noticed a pattern developing, and figured out why my Bullseye Shaper seemed to do so much better than my Hunter Guardians.

 

I have determined that no class benefits the most from missiles.

 

What huh?

 

No, really. No actual class benefits more than any other from missiles. At least not on Torment.

 

Creations are what benefits most from missile support. And the reason why the Bullseye Shaper seemed to do better than the Hunter Guardian was because the Shaper is better at shaping, and has strong magic support. But in the end, it boils down to the Shaper having stronger creations than the Guardian. I believe it also explains how my Bullseye Shaper felt so much stronger than a regular battle magic using Shaper... His creations were regularly kicking hiney, mostly due to missile support, and with many creations, that is a wide array of applied damage.

 

Creations get the most out of ancillary effects. The ancillary effects amplify greatly any strengths that any creations have, including the oft ill spoken battle creations.

 

Submission batons and their ability to stun really level the playing field, along with additional ancillary support from creations like Vlish. Multiple sources of stun and slow allow complete and total control of the battle. Acid / venom batons wear down enemies just enough that creations tend to get the killing blow... Especially true in battle creations, which just may be arriving on the front lines after the initial volley is fired. By the time the front line errupts in to battle, the peppered enemy has already been weakened. With Ensnaring Crystals and Null Wands, you can effectively neutralise hostile resistance and allow your creations to deliver the beat down in complete safety.

 

In short, missiles allow your creations to become the star of the show.

 

It is not that the Guardian is weak, it is that his creations tend to be somewhat underpowered compared to a comparable Shaper, and when you build a Shaper to use missiles, the true strength of the Shaper class, the creations, really shines through.

 

I am noticing my missile using Agent, while a lot of fun, doesn't have the same oomph as my previous attempts, and it took me a while to sit down and figure out why. On paper, with all of her support magic, she seems like a better choice... She has more dex, more support magic, she seems to have all of the right factors to be the best in terms of damage with missiles, but we failed to take in to account creations. Creations make a huge difference, and here is where the Agent must step out of the lime light and allow the other two classes to shine.

 

In light of this information, I am pondering a rebuild of a Guardian, only this time with a stronger focus on shaping skills, but only one type of shaping skill to get it to a high level. I realise the Shaper still wins hands down because of strong support magic for his creations, but I think I am on the verge of something great with how the Guardian is played... I believe he will be rewarded for specialisation. I am still unsure of which creation type to jack up... Fire or Magic.

 

I believe that if done right, the Guardian has a lot to offer with his melee skills, as cheap as they are, as a means of creation support. And instead of focusing more on damage items, I plan to focus more on support items. With a highly specialised and focused build, combined arms support, and a bit of luck, I am betting I can release the real power of the Guardian as a class... As a Guardian for his creations.

 

I suspect something that may tilt the board in his favour.

 

Agents seem to benefit from spellcraft with their buffs... Blessing and protection and such.

 

Well, with dex and missile skill making wands and what not more powerful, it stands to reason that if more rods of battle were crafted, more rods of defenses, rods with haste and what not, that the Guardian could use his considerable and cheap melee skills to good use to really ratchet up the multiplier effect on these items, as they do have a base effect listed. A very high missile skill and dexterity could very well turn these sorts of items in to very powerful tools when used in the right situation.

 

I don't know how well this would work, but I suspect that it would be fun trying.

[MagmaDragoon]

A good idea. The Guardian can support creations better than other classes, IMHO.

[Aoslare]

I'm not convinced. Missiles and Dex are as expensive for a Guardian (2, 4) as Magic and Spellcraft are for a Shaper. You don't have to specialize at all among battle/mental/blessing items, it's true, and you get better weapons skills; but your creations are also weaker.

 

Also, I don't think Dex and Missiles increase the effects of pods, spores, and rods. I could be wrong, but I haven't noticed it, anyway.

 

I think I am actually coming around to SoT's disposable creations model. At least that way you get flexibility.

 

...you know, what with the three of us rambling on like this, and our differing opinions as to what strategies are the best ones, it occurs to me that we mirror in some ways the Shaper/Guardian/Agent trichotomy...

[Student of Trinity]

This is what I have been trying with my missile Guardian squad leader. As I reported, he's doing much better at keeping his creations alive than my previous attempts at squad leaders, which were based on melee Guardians. I don't think it's all about ancillary effects, because I haven't used that many, and I've still had a dramatic difference. I think it's that missile specialization makes you a lot more flexible in reacting when your creations get hurt. You can fling some crystals to clear out a mob, and when your missile skill is high they do the job. And you can help out any creation within range, instead of having to run across the battlefield.

 

And if your creations are all missile launchers, then your also being a missile launcher means that you stay with them, where you can heal them easily, instead of charging ahead all the time.

 

I used to think a forward melee Guardian would draw the enemies away from the creations, but that just doesn't seem to work, probably because getting your Guardian four or more AP ahead usually means charging without attacking. This not only wastes a round, it often makes enemies ignore your seemingly passive Guardian and attack your creations after all. A missile Guardian helps keep enemies away from creations by helping kill them before they get close, and this works better.

 

The fact that missile attacks do generally do less damage than melee ones also helps creations, in a funny way: it gives them a use, to finish off things your Guardian can't quite kill. With a melee Guardian I seemed to be doing all the killing in person, so I kept putting skill points in Strength and Endurance instead of Intelligence or Shaping, and this made the comparative uselessness of my creations get steadily worse, until I abandoned them in disgust.

 

BTW, I disavow credit for the disposable creations model. What I want and am trying is the opposite, a Guardian who looks after a few creations and keeps them so they get strong enough to keep pulling their weight -- just never nearly as strong as the Guardian himself. If you don't do this, I think freshly made Guardian creations will be so weak, as the game goes on, that they will do nothing but soak up one attack before dying. I admit that that might sometimes be handy, but even if it weren't distasteful, I think it would get boring quickly. And is the AI really dumb enough to pound harmless Thahds while a Guardian is pumping in Reapers from a few steps away?

[Aoslare]

I seem to recall DeVlish posting that the AI generally attacks the last thing that attacked it. So as long as the Thahds move after you do, then yes.

[Student of Trinity]

If that's true, it's lame. It should be fixed in G4 if at all possible, and if it's not possible, then herding Thahds into the arms of the Rotghroths would still be an unworthy engine abuse.

[Aoslare]

That's not good engine abuse, though. I mean talk about a waste of 11 essence.

 

Engine abuse would be playing monkey in the middle with two ranged attacks. Fyora A shoots Rhotghroth, it goes to Fyora A. Fyora B 6 squares away shoots it, it goes to Fyora B. Repeat.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Vlishnu:
That's not good engine abuse, though. I mean talk about a waste of 11 essence.

Engine abuse would be playing monkey in the middle with two ranged attacks. Fyora A shoots Rhotghroth, it goes to Fyora A. Fyora B 6 squares away shoots it, it goes to Fyora B. Repeat.

I've done this! Had a Fyora go around a clump of trees in the beginning in one direction, and my Guardian go the other way, and we both came out on either side with a Thahd in the middle. He ran back and forth to both sides trying to figure out who to kill, but never actually laid his hairy paws on either of us.

You can also use this same tactic in Avernum 4. Have 2 of your party members come around from one side, and the other two from the other side. All of your enemies will run back and forth between each side, getting slaughtered.

Doesn't always work, but when it does it's worth a demented giggle.

[Student of Trinity]

Can you do it with two enemies, and get them to keep criss-crossing?

 

It shouldn't be so hard to stop that sort of thing, but I guess it might be hard to do so without introducing other problems. I guess with Thahds it might be realistic, and the smart monsters generally all have ranged attacks, so it shouldn't be that bad.

[Aoslare]

The Thahd description does say they have a "sad tendency" to get confused...

[Delicious Vlish]

Creatures with missile attacks can also be rather dumb. I've had a really determined Dryak chase my shaper one time round and round a section of wall. My creations (Cryoas) pelted him with ice breath, but he insisted on trying to take a bite out of my delicious shaper. This happened in the Darkstone Mines, in the area where the Servant Mind is. He chased me round and round that little area, never shooting at me, trying to bite me. Completely ignored my pets. He only stopped once to shape a Fyora of his own, and then resumed his quest to get one delicious bite of Shaper.

 

It was a very surrealistic Benny Hill moment.

 

I think what pissed him off was that I hit him once with a really high damage Searer.

[Student of Trinity]

Well, that at least means that the rule of attacking the last attacker isn't universal. It might not even be so dumb, since if the Drayk gave up chasing you to squish a Cryoa, he'd get another Searer. Smartest would just be to run away and try to ambush, but that would take a really hard AI, and you could argue the Drayk was too megalomaniacal to retreat.

[Delicious Vlish]

Just a really fun screenshot I like to call "Creeping Death."

 

 

The real value of venom batons... Sniping something, cast terror, runs away and dies. Might take a few turns of standing around and recharging your energy. As you can see, I am in no real danger here. However, everything around me is in extreme danger.

 

In that picture, I had nailed two roamers with terror, and then plugged them both with a thorn. They ran away and I ended combat. I stood around waiting for a while, regaining my energy, checking out the scenery, and letting the poison do its work.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

A missile Guardian with 5-7 in MS would probably work. At first just use a buffed thahd and Alwan while sniping away with whatever missile. Then hit Harmony and start making Vlish. After get a buffed Glahk and Alwan to hold the front line while shooting the enemies down with Vlish and you.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Bobby Pendragon:
A missile Guardian with 5-7 in MS would probably work. At first just use a buffed thahd and Alwan while sniping away with whatever missile. Then hit Harmony and start making Vlish. After get a buffed Glahk and Alwan to hold the front line while shooting the enemies down with Vlish and you.

Alwan, on Torment?

I have news for you friend, and anybody that has played Torment can back me up on this, Alwan dies the moment something even looks at him funny on Torment. He is as useless as lipstick on a hog. He is not a viable part of strategy, except maybe as a decoy so you don't get killed. He can't even do enough damage to deal with the regen rate when he starts out.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Exactly. He's a decoy. And someone that finishes of the enemy when its about to finish of you.

 

It works. I've tried it on torment with a melee Guardian and Alwan. He can take a hit. he can take two or three if you first invest in Str & End. By the end if you go by the kill before you get killed with a melee Guardian you generally try to kill things in around 3 turns. If not don't attack with him until your enemy won't survive to attack a 4th time.

[Aoslare]

Because clearly, investing in Strength makes you better able to take hits.

 

I liked you better when you just ranted about minotaurs.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

No, strength allowed you to do damage enough to have the finishing off strategy work.

 

Why don't you, since you clearly don't like me, not talk to me. You do not know everything, you are not the greatest, stop thinking that.

[Randomizer]

I tried a Missle Agent in GF1 in Torment mode. At missle weapon 10 the crystal damage was between half and two thirds of spell damage at battle magic 18 and spellcraft 12. This makes sense since crystals start at 6d6 level and spells start at 1-3d? depending upon training. Even better swarm crystals hit 4 creatures versus maybe 3 with searing orbs. When you factor in AP 3 for crystals versus AP 5 for spells a missle capability is great.

 

I'm trying out a missle agent versus a missle shaper in GF2. Specializing in one shaping class makes the ones you get more powerful.

 

Since you usually get fire based creatures first it makes sense to use them and save magic shaping for the area after the demo for the next group to be used. Thrads make nice shields, but I prefer range attacks when possible. Wasting AP to close with a monster is a good way to die with so many range attacking monsters.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Delicious:

Quote:

Alwan, on Torment?

 

I have news for you friend, and anybody that has played Torment can back me up on this, Alwan dies the moment something even looks at him funny on Torment. He is as useless as lipstick on a hog. He is not a viable part of strategy, except maybe as a decoy so you don't get killed. He can't even do enough damage to deal with the regen rate when he starts out.

I disagree. Alwan isn't fantastic, but he can hold his own.

[MagmaDragoon]

Alwan is "precious" because you can use him like a "target": you can gain at least 1-2 attacks before he die. I think.

 

Also, he is immortal. This can be useful in one-versus-one battles (because you gain the two bonus attacks; in big battles is a little useless).

[Suspicious Vlish]

Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

In short, missiles allow your creations to become the star of the show.

Perhaps, although mental magic is far more effective, and less likely draw fire to your frail Shaper. Ever since G2, I've stuck by the belief that the most versatile and powerful shaper is the one who supports creations with blessing/healing/mental magic.

 

Added to which, mental magic can do the greatest potential damage to a single target.