What exactly are slith avatars?

[Crowley]

Judging by how slith avatars tend to appear from out of nowhere near their dead, at first I thought they were some kind of spirits. However, that doesn't hold water since the repel spirit spell doesn't work on them. What are these things?

[WiKiSpidweb]

Avatar (अवतार in sanskrit) refers to a physical manifestation of a divine being.

 

EDIT: Interestingly Jeff seems to have borrowed several other terms in his game from Sanskrit, including Rakshasa (रक्षस) and Naga (नाग).

[Student of Trinity]

Rakshasas and Nagas were brought into the collective FRPG bestiary years before by AD&D.

[Randomizer]

The slith avatars are a powerful type of guardian spirit. Similar to demons, but not affected by repel spirit.

[Dintiradan]

Almost nothing in the fantasy genre is original. Think about it: very few creatures in the Avernum series are truely unique. Chitrachs are just big praying mantises, and the Vahnatai fill the role elves usually do (to be fair, JV should be lauded in his choice to go with cat and lizard beings rather than going with the overused elves and dwarves). Try as I might, though, I can't think of any equivilent to the GIFTS.

 

And what D&D monster is truely unique. There are only a handful; beholders and illithids are the only ones I can think of at the moment. A beholder can be described as [CENSORED], with [CENSORED]. The illithids, also known as [CENSORED], are a race of beings known for their [CENSORED]. However, WotC has not released these creatures under the OGL, so I cannot provide further details.

 

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You mean the Mind Fla-

DON'T say it! It's trademarked!

- OotS

[Lazarus.]

I was under the impression that Slith Avaters were resurrected slith heroes, who pretty much hang around by their own grave. The important thing to know is that they are quite liberal with the dishing out of pain.

 

Pretty much everything in fantasy games or novels isn't original. It mostly is founded in either myths or builds off of previous books (LOTR alert).

 

I had thought about this in relation to the avernum series and concluded pretty much what has already been stated. The sliths/nephils/vahnatai are the only races that are new (although cat men and lizard men isn't exactly revolutinary.) Pretty much anything original in the game comes in the strange way that creatures act (like the GIFTS, *shudders*), not that similar creatures haven't been seen before.

[Alorael at Large]

Read books by China Miéville. There may not be anything new, but he really, really tries. Anthropomorphic cacti are among his more normal creations.

 

—Alorael, who considers slith avatars generic power slith defenders. Which they are. Which means he's right!

[Student of Trinity]

Blichh. He tries much too hard. The easiest thing for any author to do, when the anxiety of influence gets too strong, is go sick. It's easy, in the sense that it lets you stretch a spoonfull of inspiration with a gallon of perspiration, and it will reliably generate stuff that ain't like Tolkien. But it ain't good, either. Maybe sick doesn't necessarily mean bad, but easy does. And, sad but true: trying too hard is too easy. If only mere effort made art.

 

I'm judging only by Perdido Street Station, but I found several of the many things that were raised in a paragraph and dismissed to be more interesting than the main menace, whose power failed to convince. I couldn't help feeling, from half way through, that the only reason slake moths were so bad was that the author was going to insist they were, because they were his "different" bad things. And the only reason those alien hyperspiders were so capriciously malign was that the author realized they would otherwise be fairy godmothers; so he has them torture a few red shirts to death for no reason, and that problem is solved. Slather on some sick and the readers will never think "Wizard of Oz meets Charlotte's Web".

 

And so on. You can sense the author prodding every chapter into novelty, usually by adding gratuitous gruesomeness. This we don't need.

[Alorael at Large]

I view the plot of Perdido Street Station as an excuse. It's among the most overused plots of fantasy mixed with a little gothic horror. It's just a pretext for the author to show off his handlingers, Weaver, automatic electrical sacrifice ritual machine, and cameo by traditional RPG adventurers.

 

As I've said before, I prefer a good world to a good plot a lot of the time, and New Crobuzon is a very good steam-gothic-fantasy-Oz world. Its elements aren't unique, per se, but it comes together to be something not quite like anything else I've read.

 

—Alorael, who actually likes Miéville's insistence on dropping references to other places and things without further elucidation or use. Torque is horrible (and a thinly-veiled reference to nuclear weapons), but it's not relevant. A city full of the undead is mentioned in passing (and more than in passing in a later book), but it's never central. It helps keep the books from falling into the trap of heroes saving the world and making everything perfect and boring.

[Crowley]

It's clearly safe to say that this thread has gone horribly off-topic. All I wanted to know why a creature which by all means appears to be a spirit is not affected by repel spirit. If you want to continue the discussion about traditions, clichés and originality, could you please do it somewhere else?

[Alorael at Large]

Threads are communist. From each according to his ability, and then they belong to the people.

 

Note that ability means ability to produce good threads, not ability to press the New Topic button.

 

—Alorael, who has another theory. Slith avatars are actually slimes created by Rakshasa. In disguise! And they have plasma blasters in their spears!

[Dintiradan]

By Crowley:

Quote:

All I wanted to know why a creature which by all means appears to be a spirit is not affected by repel spirit.

Easy enough. Each creature is nothing more than a mass of statistics. One of them classifies what the creature is. You choose between human, nephilim, slith (or is it lizard?), undead, demon, vahnatai, etc. You can only choose one creature type. Seeing that there is no 'slith undead' slot, I'm guessing JV decided the Avatar fit better under another heading other that 'demon' or 'undead', possibly the slith (or lizard). The one way to check exactly which one is to read the BoA docs to find each groups strengths and weaknesses, then spend a few minutes narrowing it down.

 

So yeah, the Avatars are neither undead nor demons because JV typed in a different number. Pretty anticlimatic, eh?

 

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Help! A character sheet is attacking me!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
slith (or is it lizard?)

I believe the politically correct term is Anthropomorphic Reptile.

But anyway, it makes sense that the Avatars would be Anthropomorphic Reptiles instead of undead or demons, since they need to retain their flame-resistance (since zombies are famously flammable). That, and if they're incarnations of heroes, I'd think that they could resist a little wimpy Repel Spirit anyway. That could make a case for them being demons, though, so that only level 3 affects them...

But I'm analyzing it too much.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Seeing that there is no 'slith undead' slot

BTW, why? Anybody ever seen and undead except a human one? I don't consider Vahnatai spirits and all sort of demons to be the 'undead' by definition. Does methabolism have to do something to make it impossible to raise a nephilim (read non-human) from the dead?
Away from "no slot in a constructor" variant, what is the reason?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:

Quote:

Seeing that there is no 'slith undead' slot

BTW, why? Anybody ever seen and undead except a human one? I don't consider Vahnatai spirits and all sort of demons to be the 'undead' by definition. Does methabolism have to do something to make it impossible to raise a nephilim (read non-human) from the dead?

Well, there are Vahnavoi, which just seem to be Vahnatai zombies, not spirits like the Crystal Souls are.

[Aran]

It's been some time since A2 for me, but I seem to remember Vahnavoi and Hraithe could be hit with undead-repelling magic. Does that mean that they weren't classed as Vahnatai at all (in favor of Undead)?

 

Anyway, I currently have this weird idea that in BoA you could set a monster to be affected by Undead spells without giving it the Undead creature type. It's probably just wishful thinking though.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Meeshka:

 

Quote:

Does methabolism have to do something to make it impossible to raise a nephilim (read non-human) from the dead?

Dikiyoba seems to recall there being mention of nephil and slith bodies ready to be turned into undead in the ruined nephil fort in Avernum 2, but it's been too long since Dikiyoba has played it as well.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Dikiyoba seems to recall there being mention of nephil and slith bodies ready to be turned into undead in the ruined nephil fort in Avernum 2, but it's been too long since Dikiyoba has played it as well.

It was nephilim only, I believe, but yes. Some of the generic undead that one finds are actually nephilim undead, not human undead.

Aran: Yes, vahnavoi are undead, not vahnatai. In BoA, the only way that I know of to make a creature vulnerable to Repel Spirit is by setting its cr_species to 7 (Demon) or 8 (Undead), and vahnavoi are definitely set to 8 in corescendata.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Dikiyoba seems to recall there being mention of nephil and slith bodies ready to be turned into undead in the ruined nephil fort in Avernum 2, but it's been too long since Dikiyoba has played it as well.[/QB]

Were there? Hmm, I have to play it again then. I can not recall anything of that sort mentioned.
"ready to be turned into undead"? No sir, no spark of light in my memories, except the same things in TES3 series, but that's not from here.
As for Vahnavoi, those were the creatures I think to be more ghosts (sorry, not the spirits of course). May be I am wrong.
And it may seem that my sclerosis is playing tricks, but also I can't remember any necromancer met or even mentioned. Along with such type of magic. Were all the undead made by demons or cruel fate circumstances (the dark pit E1/A1)? May be I'm a bit too scrupulous with Avernum, comparing its magic stuff with some magic schools canons from other RPGs?
As for giving a Repel Spirit vulnerability to any creature - why not give such to Slith Avatars?

[Alorael at Large]

Undead generally come in three varieties: decaying, skeletal, and ghostly.

 

One decaying corpse probably looks much like another. Sure, it might have some fur or scales coming off in patches instead of bare skin, but only if you're staring. Note that the games rarely (never?) describe the zombies you encounter. They could be any race, but in fact that's irrelevant because they're undead.

 

Skeletons are much the same. Nephil, slith, human, and vahnatai skulls might not look the same but that's not really important when you're being assaulted by a bunch of bones with a sword.

 

The spiritual undead like shades tend to look like utterly generic, apparently green humanoids. The race of a shade is impossible to determine.

 

There are definitely a few places where goblins in graveyards become zombies (despite the Encyclopedia Ermariana's entry), and there are some nasty undead in vahnatai crypts that can only be vahnatai corpses. I vaguely recall a few undead nephils, but I'm not sure about sliths.

 

Hraithe and vahnavoi both seem like undead with flesh that don't suffer decay like zombies. I'm not sure what that makes them. Mummies? Is preservation the only difference between vahnatai who become the vahnatai-specific undead and vahnatai who become generic undead?

 

—Alorael, who concludes that if the undead only share having returned from death and slith avatars are not undead, they must not have died. Maybe especially valiant sliths are magically ascended to avatarhood before death in a ritual analogous to vahnatai and Crystal Souls.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Accidental Malice:
Undead generally come in three varieties: decaying, skeletal, and ghostly.

Vampires are which one then? And here I can see the first type can transform into second, after it "decays" to the end? I've never heard of such thing in necromagic.
And just for example, an elven vampire holds another name. I won't make a list, but the names of the "undead" of different races differ, I think, due to some racial traditions . May be not on Ermarian space, though.
Still, the argument that we just can't make a concrete conclusion which race this or that undead came from is rather serious. I think that's what I wanted to hear. Still it makes fighting animated flesh (summoned ghost) a bit dull. I hate undead, they are all the same

Edit: missed an interesting phrase. Yes, the games and the books describe undead as a rule. Avernum was, I think, the first game, where necromagic is not explained.

[Alorael at Large]

Vampires become vampires by being bitten, not by being magically animated. Diplomacy with the Dead strongly implies that this is true in Avernum as well as mythology.

 

Although Avernum doesn't weigh in on the subject, zombies are generally animated flesh that keeps decaying and and skeletons are fleshless bones animated and held together by magic. As zombies decompose, they fall apart because magic isn't used to hold them together. If they reach a skeletal stage, they're effectively out of commission because they have no coherency (or ability to move) any more.

 

Applying D&D to Avernum is a bad idea. There are no elves, and the only race-specific undead are the vahnatai varieties.

 

—Alorael, who can think of plenty of games and books that don't bother to explain the undead. Even those that do usually just say that dark power keeps the dead ambulatory and leave it at that. What exactly isn't explained in Jeff's universe that needs to be elucidated?

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Accidental Malice:
What exactly isn't explained in Jeff's universe that needs to be elucidated?

Who makes them.

Are Vampires "undead"?

Why is it a bad idea to try to apply any issue of D&D to Avernum since there ARE Dungeons and Dragons present?
That's what should be explained, I think.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:

Quote:

Originally written by Accidental Malice:
What exactly isn't explained in Jeff's universe that needs to be elucidated?

Who makes them.

Necromancers, generally. You get to meet many of them. You kill most of them, too.

Quote:

Are Vampires "undead"?

Yes. I'm not sure this is ever stated outright, but the keep company with the undead, they're affected by all the anti-undead spells, and they figure prominently in Diplomacy with the Dead.

Quote:

Why is it a bad idea to try to apply any issue of D&D to Avernum since there ARE Dungeons and Dragons present?

This doesn't even deserve a response, but it will get one in four words: elves, dwarves, sliths, and nephilim.

—Alorael, who realizes quite well that his last response is absurd. So is the question, though.

[Kelandon]

For example, the plague of undead in A3 on the island south of Gale is caused by Zkal. People like him make undead.

[Meeshka]

Question on D&D was no doubts an absurd one. But the answer... Enough to say, I've put that question not expecting any answer. Thanks for replying, though.

Next life I'd prefer to be a slith to have a mere opportunity to become a mighty avatar ina "afterlife", then to be a Vahnatai and become a Crystal for any achievements at the end.

Still I know I'll be an oak tree. Too dumb, I guess.

[Crowley]

Actually I've been paying some attention to what causes undead in the Avernum (or Ermaria) universe recently as I've been playing the games. I find it rather interesting and varied. Necromancy is one way, possibly coupled with a magician turning him- or herself into a lich. Another thing seems to be that when people die with an all-consuming emotion (or maybe just hatred?) in them they can't quite let go of this world and become undead, possibly exterting influence to the surrounding area as can be seen in the cave northeast of Mertis. A bit more mundane instance seems to be that when you are simply walking around in a graveyard the dead rise to fight you. Seems like simply disturbing someone's final resting place could result in retaliation.

[Lilith]

Getting killed by demons also seems to result in a higher-than-usual chance of becoming undead: both Fort Remote and the Tower of Magi pick up a couple of ghosts after being destroyed.

[Meeshka]

Seems like necromancy is the default option, unless you are lucky to die in Avernum in peace, your relatives around.

Die hard in torture or violence - you become a zombie (or a ghost).

Die in grief and sorrow you become a ghost.

Die from a hand of evil magician you become a zombie or a skeleton

Die from a hand of a demon, and even that demon won't be sure about who you transform into.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:
Die hard in torture or violence - you become a zombie (or a ghost).

Not usually. How many battlefields do you come across in Avernum with no zombies? A lot.

Quote:

Die in grief and sorrow you become a ghost.

Also not quite. Die in rage, especially at betrayal, and you come back as some kind of spirit. Die with unfinished and important business and you're even less likely to lie quietly in your grave/pile of rubble.

Quote:

Die from a hand of evil magician you become a zombie or a skeleton.

How you die doesn't matter here. Where your body ends up does. Necromancers like collecting corpses to raise. If that means collecting living people and killing them, so be it, but it's not the manner of death that creates zombies.

Quote:

Die from a hand of a demon, and even that demon won't be sure about who you transform into.

One demon doesn't usually do the trick. Massive demonic invasions are more useful, and even so most ghosts appear because they have unfinished business or important work to do. You know, little things like stopping demonic invasions.

—Alorael, who wonders what made the Alien Blade so important to the previous owner of Hawke's Manse. (And was his name Hawke?)

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Branchist v. Clubist:
—Alorael, who wonders what made the Alien Blade so important to the previous owner of Hawke's Manse. (And was his name Hawke?)

Typical rich kid, I expect. Got a huge inheritance, got the Manse, and bought the Alien Blade just because it was "exotic". Probably never even used it.

(Side note: I imagine that the sword would make a terrible vegetable cutter, what with the poisoned blade and all)

Alternately, Hawke could've been a famous adventurer who hid his most valuable weapon away in the house awarded to him by a grateful and freshly-rescued mayor of Lorelei. That would be awesome.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

How you die doesn't matter here

Now I'm scared. What did you mean by "you" and "here"?

Edit: I hate undead, I really hate undead. But more than that I wanna be ba-a-ad. And necromancers I hate more than poor undead.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Meeshka:

 

Quote:

Now I'm scared. What did you mean by "you" and "here"?

It means that it doesn't matter how a person dies in Avernum. Alorael wasn't refering to you. Unless, of course, he sees you walking down the street one day.

 

Dikiyoba.

[*i]

Alorael is stalking you...

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Meeshka:

Quote:

Now I'm scared. What did you mean by "you" and "here"?

It means that it doesn't matter how a person dies in Avernum. Alorael wasn't refering to you. Unless, of course, he sees you walking down the street one day.

I am sorry for making Dikiyoba confused. Quesion about "me" and "here" was actually a nonserious one. And scared I was for Avernites. Too many ways to scare those who you loved after you die and come as undead.