What helps weapon shaping?

[Magenta]

Strength improves melee damage; agility improves missile damage; intellect improves spell damage. Does anything improve weapon shaping?

[Genernumlover]

Melee Weapons and Missile Weapons are the keys to unlocking Weapon Shaping skills. They actually do more for weapon attacks than Strength and Agility.

 

Strangely, the + stat on Weapon Shaping abilities is increased by Intellect, a skill that Guardians usually invest in the least due to not needing it nearly as much as Essence Mastery and Endurance.

[alhoon]

It is magic, I am not surprised int is added. Guardians are Mages that specialize in combat. They are not just warriors that Shape. 

Edited May 23 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

Yes, but Guardians don't use Intellect much. It is the least vital magical skill for them due to how quickly magic recharges. It seems like Guardians have a choice between Weapon Shaping and Shaping. You have to choose one to invest in, as there are only so many skill points to use. Canisters, charms, and items can somewhat help with this though.

 

I wonder if a Guardian using cheaper creations, Fyoras, Roamers, or Iron Clawbugs, would have enough essence to build a decent team and have enough points left to increase Weapon Shaping.

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

Intellect increases the % bonus for weapon shaping status duration, because Intellect is the stat that increases the % bonus for all status durations, regardless of what ability they're on.  (I believe this is actually a change in v1.0.2 -- I could have sworn Quick Action did this for weapon shaping previously -- but I might be wrong on that.)

 

Bonus damage from weapon shaping skills like Guarded Lunge is a function of your regular attack damage -- Intellect has nothing to do with that.

[alhoon]

26 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

Yes, but Guardians don't use Intellect much. It is the least vital magical skill for them due to how quickly magic recharges. It seems like Guardians have a choice between Weapon Shaping and Shaping. You have to choose one to invest in, as there are only so many skill points to use. Canisters, charms, and items can somewhat help with this though.

 

I wonder if a Guardian using cheaper creations, Fyoras, Roamers, or Iron Clawbugs, would have enough essence to build a decent team and have enough points left to increase Weapon Shaping.

 

 

 

But at least from what I see, you don't need a high bonus to most Weapon Shaping skills anyway. Chain Lighting is the one that would benefit the most, IMO from high intelligence and the weapon's damage would still be the weapon's damage as Slarty said. 

[Genernumlover]

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

Intellect increases the % bonus for weapon shaping status duration, because Intellect is the stat that increases the % bonus for all status durations, regardless of what ability they're on.  (I believe this is actually a change in v1.0.2 -- I could have sworn Quick Action did this for weapon shaping previously -- but I might be wrong on that.)

 

Bonus damage from weapon shaping skills like Guarded Lunge is a function of your regular attack damage -- Intellect has nothing to do with that.

 

I just checked that. That's not quite true. I leveled up and put points in Intellect and the + damage was increasing. The damage modifier is determined by Intellect.

 

 

 

[alhoon]

8 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

 

I just checked that. That's not quite true. I leveled up and put points in Intellect and the + damage was increasing. The damage modifier is determined by Intellect.

 

 

For the effect probably, not for the weapon. If your weapon deals 200 damage, is it a problem if the extra damage has +20% bonus instead of +35%? 

[Archaeolagent]

10 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

I just checked that. That's not quite true. I leveled up and put points in Intellect and the + damage was increasing. The damage modifier is determined by Intellect.

 

Guarded Lunge's % bonus does not increase with Intellect.

 

Chain Lightning's will, because it's an energy attack.  This is the same reason the Gazer's "melee" attack gets a bonus from Magical Skill rather than Strength -- it does energy damage.

 

Intellect has no special relevance to weapon shaping.

[Archaeolagent]

(This is, btw, why I wish the tooltips for Str/Dex/Int read "physical melee damage" and "physical ranged damage" and "magical/elemental damage" rather than what they currently say.  But ah well.)

[Genernumlover]

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

 

Guarded Lunge's % bonus does not increase with Intellect.

 

Chain Lightning's will, because it's an energy attack.  This is the same reason the Gazer's "melee" attack gets a bonus from Magical Skill rather than Strength -- it does energy damage.

 

Intellect has no special relevance to weapon shaping.

 

That makes sense. So the magical effect modifiers are increased by Intellect for the abilities that have them, but the overall base damage is determined by the weapon itself.

 

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

(This is, btw, why I wish the tooltips for Str/Dex/Int read "physical melee damage" and "physical ranged damage" and "magical/elemental damage" rather than what they currently say.  But ah well.)

 

That would clear things up a lot. Hopefully that is implemented in a future patch or the remake of Geneforge 3.

[Archaeolagent]

11 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

That makes sense. So the magical effect modifiers are increased by Intellect for the abilities that have them, but the overall base damage is determined by the weapon itself.

The base damage range is determined by the ability itself.  In the case of Chain Lightning this does not care about any equipped weapons, it's a separate ability.

 

11 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

That would clear things up a lot. Hopefully that is implemented in a future patch or the remake of Geneforge 3.

Jeff asked me for a few suggested tooltip fixes.  I sent a short list.  He used several verbatim in v1.0.2 (notably for Mental Magic and Blessing Magic), but did not use the ones for Str/Dex/Int, so I assume he prefers the current versions.

[Magenta]

Thanks, Slarty. It was Chain Lightning I was most hoping to improve - it's the only AoE attack my solo Guardian has right now. So now I just have to decide if I should put another point in Intellect or I should hang in there because the skill points would be more useful elsewhere

[Genernumlover]

1 minute ago, ex post slarto said:

The base damage range is determined by the ability itself.  In the case of Chain Lightning this does not care about any equipped weapons, it's a separate ability.

 

Jeff asked me for a few suggested tooltip fixes.  I sent a short list.  He used several verbatim in v1.0.2 (notably for Mental Magic and Blessing Magic), but did not use the ones for Str/Dex/Int, so I assume he prefers the current versions.

 

In that case, Weapon Shaping has its own rules. The ability to use Weapon Shaping is determined by skill in weapons, the modifiers are determined by Intellect, and the base damage is determined by the ability. It seems like it would be easier for Vogel to make the ability to use them and have their modifiers be determined by weapons skills alone. Either that or weapons skills and Essence Mastery, as essence is supposedly the key component of Weapon Shaping.

 

I'm thinking aloud here, but could an Agent theoretically make better use of Weapon Shaping than a Guardian under the current rules? It seems like her modifiers would be higher on virtually all of the abilities due to her need for Intellect to power her spells. I haven't tried a Weapon Shaping Agent yet, mostly because I like melee Guardians so much. But a Baton Agent sounds like she'd be very powerful.

 

Well, it is good to hear that he is asking you for improvements. Hopefully he takes the ones he didn't use this time and uploads them in the next patch.

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

No.  Weapon Shaping 100% does not have its own rules.  This whole thread is a mix of assumptions, and things that are simply wrong.

[Genernumlover]

I mean that Weapon Shaping is different from the other forms of magic in that it is accessed differently. Because it is accessed via weapon skill and its modifiers are increased by a stat that is usually more associated with the magic skill lines as opposed to weaponry or essence, what Guardians mainly use, it seemingly has its own rules even though the system itself is basically the system for magic.

[Archaeolagent]

You keep saying "its modifiers" as if anybody cares about either (1) Intellect, or (2) the duration modifiers for these skills.  +5% to duration isn't relevant to all that much.  Also, in order to use any weapon shaping ability you're using a physical attack.  Which uses physical attack modifiers.  To do actual damage.  Which you probably care about a lot more than an extra +5% duration to war blessing or vulnerability or whatever.

 

Agents don't care that much about Intellect.  Agents do care about being able to use their actions to cast spells.  That makes weapon shaping not the first thing they're going to turn to.  Weapon shaping is excellent when it's a mostly-free bonus you tack onto your regular strong attack.  If you're only making the attack in order to use the weapon shaping ability, it's not as good -- most of the time, in that scenario, you'd rather just cast a spell.

[Genernumlover]

16 hours ago, ex post slarto said:

You keep saying "its modifiers" as if anybody cares about either (1) Intellect, or (2) the duration modifiers for these skills.  +5% to duration isn't relevant to all that much.  Also, in order to use any weapon shaping ability you're using a physical attack.  Which uses physical attack modifiers.  To do actual damage.  Which you probably care about a lot more than an extra +5% duration to war blessing or vulnerability or whatever.

 

Agents don't care that much about Intellect.  Agents do care about being able to use their actions to cast spells.  That makes weapon shaping not the first thing they're going to turn to.  Weapon shaping is excellent when it's a mostly-free bonus you tack onto your regular strong attack.  If you're only making the attack in order to use the weapon shaping ability, it's not as good -- most of the time, in that scenario, you'd rather just cast a spell.

 

True, +5% isn't that much. On the other hand, +20% is a lot. Given that spamming magical attacks requires several levels of Intellect, that stacks up over the game. I'm curious as to how the stat and focus differences between classes influence different skills and strategies.

 

On that, we agree. Weapon Shaping is good in its role as a bonus to attacks you are going to make, but it doesn't really outright replace the alternative spells due to the way it functions. For example, Lifedrain is a good bonus, but it isn't as good as Regenerate. That's comparing Weapon Shaping to Healing Craft, but it is one of the more blatant examples.

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

50 minutes ago, Genernumlover said:

True, +5% isn't that much. On the other hand, +20% is a lot.

I'm not saying "5 percent isn't much."  Sometimes, 5 percent is a lot.  I'm saying that adding duration to these statuses, whether +5% or +20%, doesn't matter.

 

Getting 6 turns of War Blessing instead of 5 has zero impact on whether or not any character ever wants to use a weapon shaping skill.  Especially not when you compare it with the big cost for a magic-oriented character, discussed above: needing to use a physical attack rather than a spell.

 

Extra duration on statuses really only matters when all of the following are true:

- The initial duration isn't long enough for what you need

- Reapplying the status is a non-trivial task

- The status is strong

 

This describes something like Dominate.  This doesn't describe much if anything that weapon shaping does.

 

Just because a bonus exists, does not mean it matters.  Just because a bonus has a large number, does not mean it's strong.  Context matters.

[Hyperion703]

I'm with Generumlover on this. While I get the rationale on why Intellect boosts the effectiveness/duration/whatevs of Weapon Shaping magical effects, it seems pretty dumb. It really does seem like the game is providing guardians some abilities that only get better if you pump a skill that only agents realistically pump. It would be like if Firebolt's damage only got better by pumping Missile Weapons or something. Yes, a firebolt is a missile, just like chain lightning is a spell. But would we really expect agents to pump MW to make Firebolt better when it is nigh useless to them otherwise? 

 

My solution would be one of simple semantics. Instead of "Chain Lightning" (which has elemental magic connotations), I would change it to something like "Deflective Strike" or "Barbed Projectile." That way, it would keep the effect, lose the elemental reference, and gain a mechanical/weapon tinkering or physical skill effect. Voila - improved by Strength (or Agility), or Combat Skills instead of Intellect.

[Genernumlover]

19 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

I'm with Generumlover on this. While I get the rationale on why Intellect boosts the effectiveness/duration/whatevs of Weapon Shaping magical effects, it seems pretty dumb. It really does seem like the game is providing guardians some abilities that only get better if you pump a skill that only agents realistically pump. It would be like if Firebolt's damage only got better by pumping Missile Weapons or something. Yes, a firebolt is a missile, just like chain lightning is a spell. But would we really expect agents to pump MW to make Firebolt better when it is nigh useless to them otherwise? 

 

My solution would be one of simple semantics. Instead of "Chain Lightning" (which has elemental magic connotations), I would change it to something like "Deflective Strike" or "Barbed Projectile." That way, it would keep the effect, lose the elemental reference, and gain a mechanical/weapon tinkering or physical skill effect. Voila - improved by Strength (or Agility), or Combat Skills instead of Intellect.

 

I'm thinking aloud here, but tying the boost to Essence Mastery might work as well. Both Guardians and Agents need it, but it Guardians need it more. That'd mean they get a slightly stronger bonus in the long run, fitting the lore of the game and the idea that Guardians rely on Weapon Shaping.

 

Plus, essence is referenced directly in the description when Shanti teaches your character Guarded Lunge. It'd drive home that Weapon Shaping is using essence and magic in a different way, but it is primarily a Shaper's skill and not a mage's technique.

[Archaeolagent]

In practice, Intellect doesn't boost weapon shaping in a meaningful way.

 

In practice, skills that improve physical attacks do make weapon shaping better -- it's an indirect effect, but it's meaningful.

 

I understand the complaint about the % bonuses, but this is basically about flavor, not balance.

 

If anything, I think my vote would be "replace Evasion with a dedicated Weapon Shaping skill."  Then it could work exactly the way e.g. Battle Magic works.  The "sum of Melee/Missile weapons" thing feels like a weird holdover from Avernum's Battle Disciplines (which, in their original incarnation, were incredibly similar to weapon shaping in other ways, too).  Evasion itself is an odd skill -- it's the only skill whose effects are a complete subset of another skill's (Dexterity), and while it scales differently from Dex, it's not ultimately a very effective skill.  Plus, it pretty clearly ended up there just as a less-vulnerable-to-imbalance version of Parry.

 

(re Essence Mastery, the Guardian/Agent analysis leaves out Shapers, who like Essence Mastery as much as or more than anyone else, so I think that would feel pretty weird)

[Hyperion703]

20 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

Evasion... is not ultimately a very effective skill.

I had 16 points in it (inc. bonuses) and was barely touched in Benerii-Uss. Try as they might, almost nothing landed. 

 

There are also not as many enemy MT attacks as I initially presumed. Most attacks are ST. 

 

I'm a big fan. 

[alhoon]

33 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

 

 

If anything, I think my vote would be "replace Evasion with a dedicated Weapon Shaping skill." 

 

ooohhh... a dedicated Weapon Shaping skill! That is very smart! I would love that. I am not for changing Evasion though, just adding another skill for Weapon Shaping, and put that skill in combat. 

After all, healing that is effectively magic is in Shaping. So weapon Shaping in combat skills would make sense, I think.

[Archaeolagent]

9 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

I had 16 points in it (inc. bonuses) and was barely touched in Benerii-Uss. Try as they might, almost nothing landed. 

What difficulty?

[Hyperion703]

23 minutes ago, Drayk Armitage said:

What difficulty?

Vet... I mean, Normal. 😞

[Randomizer]

I used Evasion on torment difficulty and got the chance over 50%. It is useful in the early and middle game where you face more single target foes. By the end it isn't as helpful when facing more area effect attacks that become their default.

 

Intellect helps weapon shaping in allowing you to spam more high spell energy choices. You don't have to wait rounds for recharge.

[Archaeolagent]

Yeah, evasion can be pretty different on different difficulties.  First because of the chance, but also because of what happens when a hit does make it through -- if that's a light hit, and you evade most of them, you can just ignore it, you're unstoppable.  But if it's a 1HKO, 80% evasion probably counts as "not good enough."

 

Taking a step back, though, it's a non-interactive game mechanic, with the problem that it becomes dramatically more valuable the more you have of it.  If you go from 90% dodge to 95% dodge, you cut your incoming damage (and statuses) in half.  But going from 50% to 55% is much less impressive.  The build strategy thus becomes "all or nothing."  And it's almost impossible to make it interesting, because you don't want it to break the game if somebody goes all in on it.

 

This is essentially what happened with the original incarnation of Parry, in OG2.  This was a common balance issue in mid-era SW games.  In Avadon 1 IIRC, putting all your stat points into Dex and wearing evasion items resulting in almost never being hit, even on Torment.  So evasion was nerfed in Avadon 2, and you could no longer get it up to a consistent level at all.

 

21 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Intellect helps weapon shaping in allowing you to spam more high spell energy choices. You don't have to wait rounds for recharge.

This is a little silly.  The energy costs of weapon shaping skills are 10, 20, 15, 15, 20, 20, 25, and 15.  Those are quite low -- your per-round energy regain will pass most of them pretty early on.

 

Also, Intellect does not improve your rate of recharge, only your max energy.

[Genernumlover]

1 hour ago, Drayk Armitage said:

In practice, Intellect doesn't boost weapon shaping in a meaningful way.

 

In practice, skills that improve physical attacks do make weapon shaping better -- it's an indirect effect, but it's meaningful.

 

I understand the complaint about the % bonuses, but this is basically about flavor, not balance.

 

If anything, I think my vote would be "replace Evasion with a dedicated Weapon Shaping skill."  Then it could work exactly the way e.g. Battle Magic works.  The "sum of Melee/Missile weapons" thing feels like a weird holdover from Avernum's Battle Disciplines (which, in their original incarnation, were incredibly similar to weapon shaping in other ways, too).  Evasion itself is an odd skill -- it's the only skill whose effects are a complete subset of another skill's (Dexterity), and while it scales differently from Dex, it's not ultimately a very effective skill.  Plus, it pretty clearly ended up there just as a less-vulnerable-to-imbalance version of Parry.

 

(re Essence Mastery, the Guardian/Agent analysis leaves out Shapers, who like Essence Mastery as much as or more than anyone else, so I think that would feel pretty weird)

 

True, I was hoping that the lack of actual skill in weapons would balance Shapers out. I mean, even if he dumped all of his skill points into weapons, a Shaper is not going to be very good with them due to their cost. Guarded Lunge with a Baton could get to be pretty strong, but the cost would roughly equate to a Guardian trying to focus heavily on Battle Magic or an Agent trying to focus heavily on Shaping.

 

Separating Weapon Shaping into its own skill is a good idea. The catch I can see is that you'd have to invest more points in another stat as opposed to investing in one you already have, like Essence Mastery or Intellect. For a Guardian, that'd be two weapon skills, say Melee Weapons and Weapon Shaping, Endurance, some Essence Mastery, Blessing Magic, Shaping, and Healing Craft, as well as Leadership and Mechanics. Do you think it'd work if Vogel just renamed Melee Weapons and Missile Weapons to Melee Weapon Shaping and Missile Weapon Shaping and had them increase the ability modifiers? It seems like a simple fix, and it'd make investing in Weapon Shaping less complex compared to magic, but I'm wondering if it would go over well with players.

[Archaeolagent]

No, I think that would also feel weird.  Since your initial complaint is basically just thematic, not great to solve it by making the thematic elements in other parts of the game unintuitive.

[Genernumlover]

Thematic and based on how intuitive it is for players. I mean, this is supposed to be a Guardian's most fundamental ability besides whacking something, but what enhances Weapon Shaping is a stat he really doesn't use all that much.

 

How would a new skill work? I'm curious as to what you have in mind.

[Archaeolagent]

"this is supposed to be a Guardian's most fundamental ability besides whacking something"

 

Where does it say that?

[Genernumlover]

Weapon Shaping is a skill that supplements weapons, and weapons are a Guardian's strongest skill. Because of that, it is intuitive that Weapon Shaping is a natural fit for Guardians to use.

 

This is also the skill that Shanti teaches Guardian characters, not Shaping, regular weapon use, or magic.