GF2-I: Shapers and Common

[l33tmaan]

Y'know, if Barzhal hadn't gotten eaten by a drayk then I bet he would've reduced the social gap between shapers and commons. By making everyone canister-crazy. But still!

Edited April 23 by l33tmaan

[alhoon]

24 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

That's fair.  I do think taking down the Shapers is important.  But I don't think it trumps all other considerations.

 

In the Trajkov G1 ending, the Shapers are taken down, and creations are given equality right out of the gate.  That's basically a better outcome for everybody.

 

Trajkov could do that because he wasn't bent on vengeance -- he just wanted to win.  Okay, lots of other reasons too.  But there are better options than the drakon plans.

 

From what I recall, Trakjov's motivation was madness and powerlust. He was like a never-have-been-good Tuldaric or a not-trained-Barzhite in my books. Creation freedoms was a bleep in his radar. 

 

I remember thinking of the Shapers in ... that city I land, as insects. 

Edited April 23 by alhoon

[Aoslare]

alhoon, I love you, but it is really frustrating to consistently have you respond to things with "what you recall" when you could just look it up and discover that you are wrong.

[alhoon]

15 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

alhoon, I love you, but it is really frustrating to consistently have you respond to things with "what you recall" when you could just look it up and discover that you are wrong.

Ehh... I did look for the endings of Mutagen-1 but I didn't see a list. 

[Aoslare]

For the eighteenth time, the endings have not changed.

[alhoon]

1 minute ago, Slawbug said:

For the eighteenth time, the endings have not changed.

ohhhh... so I should have checked the Original GF1 endings. Got it. I will. Apologies. 

 

I will hold my ground on the insects thing, though. I remember seeing the Shapers as insects. 

[oceanes]

4 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

From what I recall, Trakjov's motivation was madness and powerlust. He was like a never-have-been-good Tuldaric or a not-trained-Barzhite in my books. Creation freedoms was a bleep in his radar. 

 

I remember thinking of the Shapers in ... that city I land, as insects. 

Trajikov is one of the key examples of someone handling Geneforge tech remarkably well, better than any other subject, in fact. Of course, from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series, but given that Jeff saw fit not to change the endings for the remake (with one exception, in the loyalist ending), it points to the exact mental effects of the Geneforge depending on one's starting point, physically and mentally. In fact GF4 reinforces this, with the protagonist not being mad despite using a Geneforge, albeit a reduced one, from the beginning. Given this, I have to chalk it up to Trajikov not being a Shaper, either technically or culturally, and thus having a different mindset, just as the GF4 PC was a commoner beforehand. There is something about Shaper training, and its worldview that mixes poorly with whatever heightened mental and physical state the Geneforge and canisters produce. Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use, and giving the subject time to acclimate.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Trajikov is one of the key examples of someone handling Geneforge tech remarkably well, better than any other subject, in fact. Of course, from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series, but given that Jeff saw fit not to change the endings for the remake (with one exception, in the loyalist ending), it points to the exact mental effects of the Geneforge depending on one's starting point, physically and mentally. In fact GF4 reinforces this, with the protagonist not being mad despite using a Geneforge, albeit a reduced one, from the beginning. Given this, I have to chalk it up to Trajikov not being a Shaper, either technically or culturally, and thus having a different mindset, just as the GF4 PC was a commoner beforehand. There is something about Shaper training, and its worldview that mixes poorly with whatever heightened mental and physical state the Geneforge and canisters produce. Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use, and giving the subject time to acclimate.

 

That Trakjov's madness was not blatant, doesn't mean it wasn't there. I agree that he handled it well though. 

As for the "from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series" ... the PC in GF1 becomes more detached than Tuldaric is, a powerhungry psychopath. After you use the Geneforge and go to the continent you see even Shapers as insignificant insects. And the other Shapers that use the Geneforge if you didn't destroy it are the same. Terrestia is ravaged by 12 Monarchs. 

I have not seen the Barzhite ending of GF2-I but I doubt Barzhal becomes as mad as the GF1-M protagonist. I read in the endings that even Goetch the Shaper that the Sholai stole goes ballistic and lands with a huge force and starts tearing stuff up. 

 

Thus... yes, Trakjov seems to the be the one handling it the best from humans. Even the much Lauded GF4 protagonist, that uses a different and lesser one goes mad when he or she downs several canisters. 
The Drakons handle the Geneforge and the canisters better.  

 

  

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Relatedly, there is also evidence from GF2 that the negative effects of canister use can be ameliorated up to a point by spacing out use

 

And from GF4 (Litalia reigns it in albeit remaining irrevocably lacking empathy and being mad to the end of her days). 

 

 

There is also ample evidence that Shapers are not having a full house up there to begin with. Think of it: 

They are arrogant, extremely powerful, can create life with a whim and they are reigned in by a very rigid set of laws. 

 

Then, Canisters / Geneforge. 
That's already breaking the laws. So, a Shaper that is ready to do it (Rawal) has already removed the "breaks" (obedience to one of the most sacred parts of Shaper Law) before he even takes his first canister. And he or she does that ... for power. So, again, we already have an individual with the afomentioned traits removing the breaks in the quest for power.

Then, we have the progressive lack of empathy and cannister addiction. Addiction makes people do things they wouldn't do and take risks they wouldn't take. 

Lack of Empathy on someone that can create life with a thought will sooner or later translate on "Life is expendable, cause I can replace it". The thought of "Oh, a car killed your dog? I will replace it with a better dog!" but for people. 

 

All those are there BEFORE the madness begins for Shapers. 

 

Edited April 24 by alhoon

[oceanes]

2 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Thus... yes, Trakjov seems to the be the one handling it the best from humans. The Drakons handle it better.  

I wonder if that is because they are creations? After all, it is possible to upgrade your own creations after making them without apparent ill-effect. Perhaps beings fashioned from essence are more adaptable, less likely to lose themselves? It depends on just how Sucia-tech and its process differs from traditional Shaping. Also, drakons are born with the ability to manipulate essence. I wonder if in humans, that runs in families, or if it is a purely learned skill?

[alhoon]

3 minutes ago, oceanes said:

I wonder if in humans, that runs in families, or if it is a purely learned skill?

 

If it run in families, there would be very few Shapers left, as they strongly look down on families. You create life though magic, not through nature! 

So, I think it is not purely inherent talent because then it would have been "bred out" of the population. 

 

PS. I edited my post above after you posted. 

Edited April 24 by alhoon

[ultra112]

To be fair though, I always thought that Trajkov being able to handle the Geneforge is rather unrealistic, even shapers could go mad when they use the Geneforge, how long can Trajkov keep it together before he too suffers the same fate

[oceanes]

3 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

To be fair though, I always thought that Trajkov being able to handle the Geneforge is rather unrealistic, even shapers could go mad when they use the Geneforge, how long can Trajkov keep it together before he too suffers the same fate

You know, this is something of a lore anachronism, but given the new lore concerning Sholai oath-magic in G2I, one could hypothesize that Trajikov's behavior is being moderated by the terms of certain oaths he took before his expedition. One would expect his superiors would want to hold him to certain rules of behavior, assuming the geas described can be used in that way.

[oceanes]

20 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

If it run in families, there would be very few Shapers left, as they strongly look down on families. You create life though magic, not through nature! 

So, I think it is not purely inherent talent because then it would have been "bred out" of the population. 

 

PS. I edited my post above after you posted. 

Doesn't Lord Rahul in GF3 have a Shaper wife? I thought it was marriage to a common that was looked down on, as with Taygen, for info-sec reasons.

Edited April 24 by oceanes

[ultra112]

23 minutes ago, oceanes said:

You know, this is something of a lore anachronism, but given the new lore concerning Sholai oath-magic in G2I, one could hypothesize that Trajikov's behavior is being moderated by the terms of certain oaths he took before his expedition. One would expect his superiors would want to hold him to certain rules of behavior, assuming the geas described can be used in that way.

Could be, unless the Geneforge is powerful enough to flat out nullify the oath magic, then there would be truly no stopping of Trajkov 

Edited April 24 by ultra112

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

Doesn't Lord Rahul in GF3 have a Shaper wife? I thought it was marriage to a common that was looked down on, as with Taygen, for info-sec reasons.

I don't remember anything like that and from what I remember from Taygen's info, it is deep romantic connections that are frown upon. 

[oceanes]

18 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I don't remember anything like that and from what I remember from Taygen's info, it is deep romantic connections that are frown upon. 

You could be right, though I could have sworn Lord Rahul's wife was one of the primary loyalist trainers in GF3. I'm not in a position to really check though.

[Aoslare]

Lord Rahul's wife is Lady Anjali.  Yes, she is a Shaper.

 

It is really not hard to google these things.  Fifteen seconds.

[oceanes]

1 minute ago, Slawbug said:

Lord Rahul's wife is Lady Anjali.  Yes, she is a Shaper.

 

It is really not hard to google these things.  Fifteen seconds.

Thank you, I'm glad google works for this. I didn't try that because I was under the impression that the Geneforge wiki was incomplete/dead, but I guess not. That makes the detail work for this a lot easier.