GF2-I: Quickest path to Drayks?

[alhoon]

I am a bit lost. Similar question I had with Mutagen, which is the quickest way to get Drayks? Tuldaric? 

Edited April 7 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

You can learn to create drays from both the Servants and Awakened. Servants have fewer quests and zones needed to get it.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

You can learn to create drays from both the Servants and Awakened. Servants have fewer quests and zones needed to get it.

You are right. 

The question should have been: Fastest way to a Drayk for someone wanting to join the Awakened (or the Takers). Not the Servants or the Barzites. 

[Mechalibur]

Then join the Awakened and get training from Tuldaric. Easy.

[alhoon]

7 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Then join the Awakened and get training from Tuldaric. Easy.

Good. So Tuldaric works. 

[alhoon]

If I don't want to join a faction yet, what is the fastest path to Drayks? 

 

Alternatively, if I join the Awakened without setting foot anywhere else, will I be given quests from other factions? Will the Takers attack me if I don't go far? 

I think as an Awakened, I am not allowed in the Radiant College. 

Could I sabotage that horrible torture-submission machine of the Barzites if I am not a Barzite? 

[Mechalibur]

nlambert has the full list of trainers and canisters in this index. Just look for "Create Drayk" and you'll get a list of trainers and whether they're faction specific or not.

[alhoon]

25 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

nlambert has the full list of trainers and canisters in this index. Just look for "Create Drayk" and you'll get a list of trainers and whether they're faction specific or not.

ooohhhh... So I could Lie to Lying Zackary the Deceiver, brow beat that weak old man to allow me training, and then abandon them and join the Awakened. 

I can't believe how giddy that ... deception... makes me feel. I will make sure that it will be a Drayk that kills Lying Zackary the Deceiver. 

 

That said, and that great plan formulated: 

It still leaves me in the conundrum of whether I should join the Awakened or it will make my life difficult in the Barzite and Taker camps. 
But I WILL get Drayks that way. And I will feed Zackary to my drayk. I will have the Drayk kill him with a bite attack, or I will load and load and load till I manage to feed Lying Zackary the Deceiver to the Drayk he will help me learn how to Shape. I can't thank you enough for this, Mechalibur. 

 

It is a Pity you can't go all Litalia / Monarch and start spamming rogues. I wish I could spam a dozen Drayks in Drypeaks Warren and release them to unleash hell as I ran. I.e. more or less what I will do to the Barzites with that switch. 

 

But back to the other question: Will joining the Awakened make my life difficult with the Barzites and the Takers? I remember I had to kill practically every Taker till I reached Syros the first time around - and it didn't get much better after I did. Most of the Takers viewed me as an enemy.  

Edited April 8 by alhoon

[Quiconque]

check out the "powergaming the sects" topic.

 

(a lot of these questions do have answers linked in strategy central.)

[alhoon]

  

On 3/29/2024 at 4:52 PM, Mechalibur said:

So I guess my optimization strategy would be:

 

Say pro-servile things. Join the Servants using leadership. Loot the Warrens and buy whatever cheap training you want from Tyallea. When you want to move on to the highest level training, join the Awakened, loot the room by Pinner with the key she gives you and get augmented by Tuldaric. Then stick with them until you've done all the quests that require Takers not to be hostile, go to Darian to change your rep, then join the Barzites and clean house. 

 

 

That is the answer to my question. 

[mikeprichard]

FYI in case you find some useful bits, my own planned munchkin "join several factions in turn for their benefits while getting the 'good' unaligned ending" detailed notes are in section "2)" of my post GF2 Infestation - Reputation Guide (complete list) - Geneforge Series - Remasters - Spiderweb Software Forums (ipbhost.com).

[alhoon]

Thanks, but I will stay with the Awakened for this playthrough although I may join the Takers in the next if they are not too horrible.

[mikeprichard]

Yeah, IMO the Awakened - setting aside whether their goals are actually realistic/achievable in the way the (extremely naive) Pinner frames them - are by far the most relatable/likeable faction. The Servants are... not great, but less terrible than the Barzites and Takers, both of which are equally awful/obnoxious/dangerous/violently insane (recognizing there are reasons the Takers are as irredeemably horrible as they are). /IMO

[alhoon]

Heck no! The Takers are much more realistic than the Awakened and have much more on the side of justice than the Servants.

The Servants are aware that the Shaper Council will eradicate everything and spread the ashes to the wind, hiding even the existence of this group of Serviles. The Shapers actively suppress knowledge of Rebellions. When you go to Mehdab, you are told about children playing. You meet one. 
The Shapers will kill them all. Lying Zackary the Deceiver, probably the person I respect the less and dislike the most in the game series (Rawal comes second) had to smuggle a kid, then a baby, from the purge in Sucia. Because the Shapers were killing even Obeyer babies, children too young to even speak, let alone "catch some dangerous ideas" from their obeyer parents. 

THAT is what the Shapers are. THAT is what the Servants support. Not even The Barzhites go that far. 

 

The Takers are dangerous and violently insane, I give you that. But you cannot raise and Take your Free if you are NOT violently insane. The most you can do is... keep a bunch of mountains away from the horrible tyranny of the Shapers, confined in your land till overpopulation brings you down. 

No, it takes the insane and the Visionaries for the world to progress and in this case, to tear down the Shaper oppression. The Awakened claim they want justice, but they just want to be left alone, and perhaps help a servile here and there. Nothing about saving the Drayks that are hunted down for the crime of existing. No justice for the  thousands of Serviles that perished in Sucia, even those that worshiped the Shapers. 

The Awakened are weak. They don't have what it takes and they don't seek the power the Takers seek, and only the geneforge and self-shaping would give the Takers a fighting chance to bring down the Shaper Empire and liberate Creations. 

 

BUT... 

they are indeed dangerous lunatics. Understandable, but when they ask me to start butchering Awakened for the crime of not-thinking-like-I-do... then, they lose me. 

And ... have you played the future games? I don't want to spoil if you haven't. 

 

And the Barzhites? They are like Shapers on Steroids. They actively torture Creations, they are as buttholery oppressive as the Shapers and they are also violently mad. They bring the worse from both sides. Barzhal is IMO clearly the villain of GF2, a villain you can align with. 

Edited April 8 by alhoon

[mikeprichard]

Yes, I've played G3-G5. They didn't do anything to change my view on the extreme "Taker"-style stance. (Destroy the Shapers... and pretty much anything else... while becoming arguably even worse than the Shapers. Their claims to liberate creations are also extremely hypocritical - it's just another round of might makes right, with Drakons etc. on top, and everyone else falling in line or else. No, thanks!)

Agree that Barzahl's (equally, IMO) awful, though.

Edited April 8 by mikeprichard

[alhoon]

3 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

Yes, I've played G3-G5. They didn't do anything to change my view on the extreme "Taker"-style stance. (Destroy the Shapers... and pretty much anything else... while becoming arguably even worse than the Shapers. No, thanks!) 

Not all of them. 

And while the Drakons do show some Shaper-ish mentality, they do try to free the Serviles. They are Lifecrafters, not Shapers. They do not enslave their creations. They want to treat them as second-class citizens but not as slaves. 

 

The Shredbugs first and the Unbound Second are the low points of the Rebellion, I give you that. I can defend the creation and use of the Unbound - the Rebels were pushed to the corner with a hand squeezing their neck. But the Shredbugs... no. That was too far. Destroying people's food to make them cave? By bugs too powerful to be easily eradicated, bugs that would literally cut farmers to shreds? That was too far. 

Only Litalia was worse. 

Edited April 8 by alhoon

[mikeprichard]

True - a valid distinction between extreme discrimination/oppression vs. outright Shaper-style slavery, which of course is morally indefensible. (Though of course, as you note, the Takers have no qualms about committing genocide against the Awakened. Not exactly the good guys.) I just find the Taker leaders and more extreme members to be miserable hyper-arrogant hypocrites.

Edited April 8 by mikeprichard

[alhoon]

6 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

True - a valid distinction between extreme discrimination/oppression vs. outright Shaper-style slavery, which of course is morally indefensible. I just find the Taker leaders and more extreme members to be miserable hyper-arrogant hypocrites.

And you are absolutely right! 

Which is why I join the Awakened when possible. Even if I find them foolish, passive and naive. 

I want to bash Shaper heads and cause their empire to collapse. BUT... I also don't have what it takes. Targeting the Awakened in GF2 is indefensible for me. Not just side-casualties or pressure. But outright war and putting them in the same camp as the Shapers. And as you said, their leaders are hyper-arrogant hypocrites. 

 

So... I find myself as a disgruntled Awakened and not a moderate Taker. 

I wish there was another path. Convince the two to work together, find some common ground. Get the Awakened to bring forces to fight the Barzhites at least. ACTIVELY fight. Not tell you "Sabotage them". 

Aaaaand... kinda but not completely introduce more Shaping to the Awakened. They see Tuldaric, the greatest hero of the Rebellion going... well, you know. And they pull the plug on cannisters and self-shaping. 😕 

I partially blame Carnellian for that. The Awakened have a lot of ex-Obeyers. If Carnelian and Tuldaric both said "a little self-Shaping is not that bad... 2-3 cannisters", the Serviles that still find the Shapers uber-wise would follow suit. Things would be much better for them. 

Edited April 8 by alhoon

[mikeprichard]

And that's the central dilemma Jeff presents in these games - when you start to succumb to the temptation (however well-intentioned, and despite understandable arguments that fire must be fought with fire) to essentially make yourself a god with direct unquestioned power over life and death... where does that end? When do you become nothing more than the original evil?

As with modern destructive technology in our own world, we can't unring the bell - but can at least try to make decisions that don't devolve into the ends justifying the means. I'm not saying that's either easy or necessarily "realistic" in either the GF world or ours, but this is how philosophers make a living (with interest from anyone wishing to prevent the worst excesses of human nature).

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, mikeprichard said:

where does that end? When do you become nothing more than the original evil?

 

At 10 canisters.

So, since they are addictive, stop at 2-3. So if you succumb one more time to be below 5.

Well, I plan to go to 6-7 canisters and be the slightly-inhuman and not-so-sociopath version. It may not be what we want but I will be what we need. And I am the player. I am totally trustworthy with the power. No, no, it is not Hypocrisy! Well, it is, but not too much. I am not Bazhral nor I intend to be. 
I am sad when I "have" to kill my faithful creations because I need to make better creations. 

(Honestly, I wish we had the ability to let them go, even if it cost something. Pay a keeper. Put up something to keep them from going rogue. Not kill them with the blood staining the floor where a totally loyal creation that has saved my life and fought for me several times was.) 

I keep my first Fyora even when I don't need her because she's the first Creation I made. 

 

And the original evil didn't use Self-Shaping. That's a different evil, that in the case of the Barzhites surpassed the original evil in evil-ness. 

That different evil, in the case of the Takers is... well, road to hell with good intentions. Some but not all Drakons lose their way, sure, but not all. Their hate for the Shapers doesn't come from Canisters but because the Shapers cannot let them exist. As long as a Shapers exist, the Drakons (and Drayks and Gazers) will not be safe. Or Geneforged persons despite the assurances you get in GF4. I don't believe them. Some Shaper will try to end you. 

Edited April 9 by alhoon

[mikeprichard]

12 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I am sad when I "have" to kill my faithful creations because I need to make better creations. 

(Honestly, I wish we had the ability to let them go, even if it cost something. Pay a keeper. Put up something to keep them from going rogue. Not kill them with the blood staining the floor where a totally loyal creation that has saved my life and fought for me several times was.) 

I keep my first Fyora even when I don't need her because she's the first Creation I made.

Totally agree on this point, though it's almost certainly part of Jeff's "evil" genius to "force"/strongly encourage the player to fall into exactly this moral dilemma, regardless of the MC's chosen faction/ending/other choices. I usually run Guardians for G1-3 with very limited creation use, then switch to serviles in G4-5 both for RP and gameplay reasons (melee supported by magic, with no shaping - I really dislike how that weapon > magic > shaping stat spread isn't available in the first three games!).

[Quiconque]

This is one thing that is pretty different from the original games, since in G2-5 you were much better off keeping creations around than letting them die.

[mikeprichard]

On that game mechanics side - I know increasing Shaping skills does increase the stats of existing creations, so what are the reasons the remakes are considered to lend themselves more to "disposable" creations than the originals? I've skimmed Randomizer's "changes from the original" Strategy Central-linked topic, but am not quite grasping this point.

[alhoon]

27 minutes ago, Slarzahl said:

This is one thing that is pretty different from the original games, since in G2-5 you were much better off keeping creations around than letting them die.

And I still had to kill my first Drayk in Geneforge 4, to make room for a Drakon before the final fight. I still remember it. I was a Lifecrafter. GF4 was the first Geneforge game I played and I was totally into the "Creations are our Children" narrative and angry that even loyal drayks were killed for no reason. I held off for as long as I could, but I couldn't win with a Drayk. Back then, I didn't know of the site and I haven't seen those optimized builds and all. 

 

At least, we could feed things to our Creations back then. So, before I destroyed Fireheart just because it was more convenient for me to destroy him and bring forth a Drakon than keep him alive, I fed him a lot of those juicy food I was gathering. I don't remember everything, but I remember it happened at the top of a map in the Late game. A cave. I remember I was sitting in my room. I have struggled with the decision but I already have lost in the next map twice by Alwan and his buddies. It was between Fireheart and my trusty Cryora, the one I had from the eaaaarly game. 

I really liked that Drayk; he was my first 3rd tier creation and he made a difference. Never went for Glaaks or Alphas.

 

And don't get me started about the cruel "overload" of GF2. I bought it for one my Fyoras and I had to watch her slowly die in a Kamikaze way, not a boom like a pyroroamer. I had to heal her to save her. 

 

 

Edited April 9 by alhoon

[Jawaj]

 

1 hour ago, mikeprichard said:

On that game mechanics side - I know increasing Shaping skills does increase the stats of existing creations, so what are the reasons the remakes are considered to lend themselves more to "disposable" creations than the originals? I've skimmed Randomizer's "changes from the original" Strategy Central-linked topic, but am not quite grasping this point.

Well the biggest thing is just that creations don’t gain XP. Which was a cool idea on paper, but was fiddly and annoying in practice, like letting a creation die without reloading meant you’d lost a bunch of XP permanently. And more expendable creations fit better with the themes of the series than the Pokémon long-term style.

Edited April 9 by Jawaj

[mikeprichard]

Ah, right, thanks - it was the incentive to avoid "losing" that creation XP along with the creation. Agree the new mechanics are much less fussy, as well as more thematic. Jeff's improved his games with things like this quite a bit over the years. (Another example is no longer having to juggle the timing of buying skill points from trainers vs. obtaining points from books/quests etc. to avoid gimping your max skill potential.)

[Mechalibur]

Yeah optimizing training timing was so annoying. Good riddance.

[alhoon]

I just wish control was a bit of a bigger issue... There are items that give increased control and there are creations that theoretically are harder to control (at least in Mutagen, the Cockatrice was). I have played with the "courage" factor, thinking that was it, but I didn't see any difference. 

Does anyone know what variables in the txt control the ... control? I want to ideally make the higher tier creations slightly harder to control or if that's the path, simply hit the PC with a malus on control.  

 

My 8th 9th level Shaper walking around with 2 Drayks, a Fyora and a Rotgroth is a bit ridiculous... 

Also, I am the clear NPC in that party. I can barely heal / remove affliction twice. And my spells suck. Meanwhile the Drayks do easily 60-70 damage per round to multiple enemies and the rot... well, does 60-70 damage to a single enemy. For more essence. And I can't afford to buy the acid spray thing.

Edited April 9 by alhoon

[Quiconque]

It was more than just creations gaining experience, it was how they did it.

 

Creations gained experience.  But that experience was, in most of the series, a fixed proportion of what you gained, based on your level -- not scaled for the creation's level.  So if you created a level 16 vlish at PC level 4 and kept it around until PC level 20, you'd have probably a level 28 vlish.  If you created that same level 16 vlish at PC level 12 and kept it around, you'd only have a level 22 vlish.  And if you created it fresh at level 20, it'd be a level 16 vlish.  This means that the longer you waited to make creations, the weaker they would be -- permanently.  So you had to balance a creation's actual strength with how early it was available, and its cost, and how many you could make.  There was thus heavy incentive for a shaper to invest in nothing but shaping skill or Intelligence until you'd made all your creations

 

Level also mattered even more then.  Because of how the creation stat system worked, higher level creations were exponentially more powerful.  Level was fairly close to a direct multiplier for damage (via Strength) and an exponential multiplier for HP (multiplying it both directly, and also indirectly via Endurance), while also ensuring you won on the simple comparison systems for accuracy (also Strength) and evasion and turn order (Dex).

[mikeprichard]

Wow, I forgot it was that broken. I usually tend to avoid making creations in Geneforge games, so I never explored this much in the originals, but very good to know (and glad all this has been "fixed" in the remakes).

[alhoon]

I wouldn't call it broken. I would call it different.