Essence Mastery vs Shaping Skill

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

25 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I would also like to know if you are in the camp of "spend a lot on essence mastery to get more creations" or the "spend more on shaping mastery for tougher creations." 

 

I find that in the early/mid game essence mastery is a better investment than shaping skill.

 

After all, if you only have 3-4 creations, you can probably give them MORE levels + bonus stats by spending essence than from another level of shaping skill. But it also gives you the flexibility to spam a horde of cannon fodder instead.

 

Of course, when you have 7 high-end creations, the math changes. Though even then, Essence Mastery scales with your character's level, which means you still get a lot of mileage out of it.

 

So probably the answer is to buy whatever is cheaper?

 

[Randomizer]

Not whatever is cheaper in the early game, but which gives you the biggest boost. In the early game each extra point of essence mastery gives you less since it is tied to your current level. A shaping level increases all your creations of that class aiming them do more damage and harder to kill.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

9 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Not whatever is cheaper in the early game, but which gives you the biggest boost. In the early game each extra point of essence mastery gives you less since it is tied to your current level. A shaping level increases all your creations of that class aiming them do more damage and harder to kill.

 

"Whatever's cheaper" was for the late game, I meant.

 

But I'm not sure the math works out for shaping skills even in the early game.

 

Take my Shaper from the demo. Level 4. Suppose Fire Shaping and Essence mastery both cost 4 points. (Which is the case after you buy 1 point of Fire Shaping.) Essence mastery at this stage gives just 6 essence which isn't much.

But as long as I have no more than 3 Fyoras, 6 essence is still enough to give each of them a level AND an extra +2 INT or EN.

 

So unless you have 4 Fyoras or more, Essence Mastery gives more returns. Edit: And I doubt you could afford 4 Fyoras at level 4 without essence mastery. (Certainly not if you want to give them fire breath.)

Edited March 31 by Iguana-on-a-stick

[Archaeolagent]

The problem is that you're stuck with those sunk points in Essence Mastery for the whole game.  And for most of the game, that point in Essence Mastery is not going to be preferable to an extra level on all your creations.

 

That doesn't mean Essence Mastery is worthless, but it does mean the deciding factor should not just be "what's mildly more useful at level 4," especially if that mild advantage isn't going to make or break your progress.  The deciding factor should be "what's better overall, in the long run?"

 

A few points in Essence Mastery is fine; but in the long run "pick the cheaper one to increase" would be a pretty bad strategy.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

5 minutes ago, Slarti said:

The problem is that you're stuck with those sunk points in Essence Mastery for the whole game.  And for most of the game, that point in Essence Mastery is not going to be preferable to an extra level on all your creations.

 

That doesn't mean Essence Mastery is worthless, but it does mean the deciding factor should not just be "what's mildly more useful at level 4," especially if that mild advantage isn't going to make or break your progress.  The deciding factor should be "what's better overall, in the long run?"

 

A few points in Essence Mastery is fine; but in the long run "pick the cheaper one to increase" would be a pretty bad strategy.

 

You're always going to want at least a few points of essence mastery, so getting those points early doesn't hurt you at all in the long run. And early on I also like the extra flexibility a lot (Boost creation level or get an extra creation, lets me try out various creation types without locking myself into a single path.)

 

But do you really get more essence than you need by the end-game? To max out all creations and still have enough for spells/battle shaping? Wouldn't a full squad of (Ur)Glaakhs/Eyebeasts/Gazers/Rothgroths costs 100s of essence, requiring a large investment? Or do you guys consider it more optimal to not max out the number of creations you can field or use lower-tier ones?

 

Mind you, I don't play on Torment so I don't claim my playstyle is at all optimal. I just always run out of essence in every Geneforge game.

 

[alhoon]

Ehh... guys, I am at level 4 and I have bought a bit of essence mastery and a bit of Fire Shaping. I kinda feel that the one thing both of you agree is that I should not have done that. 

 

I will probably soon be level 5 and ... 

You know what? I will buy leadership and mechanics. I have 4 essence left and all the rest tied by my 3 Fyoras. I have them with the haste and cone breath and fast recharge (which seems a waste to be honest as so far nothing survives three breaths). 

 

But after level 5, should I focus on Shaping Mastery instead? 

 

  

53 minutes ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

(Ur)Glaakhs/Eyebeasts/Gazers/Rothgroths costs 100s of essence, requiring a large investment?

 

Even in GF5, I had to reach like level 40 before I could field 7 top-tiers. 

 

I plan to have some decent blessing, a bit of battle magic and mind magic and decent healing by end game. It may be suboptimal but it's what I want to do. I doubt I will get battle magic 5, but some battle magic to get a few decent attack spells is something I will buy. 

 

Edited April 1 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

 

  

1 hour ago, Slarti said:

A few points in Essence Mastery is fine; but in the long run "pick the cheaper one to increase" would be a pretty bad strategy.

 

1 hour ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

You're always going to want at least a few points of essence mastery, so getting those points early doesn't hurt you at all in the long run.

 

No one was saying "never get any Essence Mastery."  The argument was with "pick the cheaper one to increase" which would result in a wildly comical amount of essence.

 

First off, one thing that's been ignored here is that there are five free levels of Essence Mastery to be gained from canisters, quests, etc.  OK, two of those are for slaying faction leaders, but three of them are reasonably findable at endgame.  Now let's look at the formula:

 

Essence = 4 + ( (EMastery + 1) * (Level + 2) )

 

You can get up to around level 24, but let's just pick level 20 for a very conservative endgame level.  Shapers start with 4 EM, we'll take that conservative 3 bonus levels.  This endgame-but-not-actually-done character will have 180 essence without any investment in Essence Mastery.  (At level 24, they'd be up to 212 essence.)

 

You used drayks as an example, so let's look at fire shaping here: 7 drayks with key investments is 182 essence.  Now, there's other considerations here -- maybe you don't actually want 7 (I personally am happier with 5 or 6, because cone positioning); or maybe you want to pay for Overdrive on all of them.  And of course you want some free essence for spells.  But each manual EM point is 22 essence.  Just getting 2 points would bring you to 224 essence (or 264 at level 24).  2, maybe 3 points is plenty of essence even with 7 drayks.

 

But your argument was "always."  So now let's consider a team of 7 Rots, who are cheap and really don't want any augments besides a single copy of the DoT+ passive.  That's a total cost of just 141 essence.  That fits just fine into 180 essence, and it leaves lots of space to play at 212 essence.

 

Now, suppose we invested in whichever of shaping skill or essence mastery was cheaper.  At level 20 that's 190 skill points to play with, say 60 are thrown at spells, mechanics, leadership.  That means we buy around 12 points of shaping skill and 10 points of essence mastery.  That's not crazy on the shaping investment, but the essence mastery?  We'll be at 400 essence.  (472 at level 24.)  That's nuts.

 

EDIT: I split this all into a new topic because it's pretty much its own separate thing anyway.

[alhoon]

At level 16, that would be 150 skill points to play with, leaving 90 for shaping and essence mastery. With essence mastery starting at 4 +8 from any source, you get according to that formula: 4 + (12+1) x 18 = 238 essence. Which is already a ton, at the expense of at least 2 levels of shaping. 

 

It seems from your very useful break up above that 200 or so essence would get a bunch of drayks and rots with key upgrades, with plenty of essence leftover for spells or to boost them with more levels etc.   

Thus 200 essence is a nice target for say... level 18? 

 

The equation becomes 4+(EM+1)x(18+2) = 200 => (EM+1) = 196/ 20 => EM=9. 

With Essence Mastery 9 from any source, you would have 204 Essence by level 18. 

 

So the question now becomes: When you say "three are reasonable by endgame even without killing faction leaders", is it reasonable to expect at least +2 by level 18? 

If yes, then Essence mastery above 7 is a waste for a Shaper. 

[Randomizer]

Essence Mastery from the canisters in Everfrost Mine and the second Emissary reward are the two easiest to get unless you want to join the Barzites.

 

Depending upon where you go and when you turn in the Bars of iron quest:

 

Level 6 - Freegatge/Medab

Level 12 most of the Awakened Lands

Level 20 entering Benerii-Uss zones

Level 22 cleared almost the entire map except Inner Gaza-Uss

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

8 hours ago, Slarti said:

First off, one thing that's been ignored here is that there are five free levels of Essence Mastery to be gained from canisters, quests, etc.  OK, two of those are for slaying faction leaders, but three of them are reasonably findable at endgame.  Now let's look at the formula:

 

I did not know that.

I also tend to play no-canister, so that tends to affect where I spend my points. But yeah, that's definitely a reason not to invest too much too early.

 

8 hours ago, Slarti said:

 

Now, suppose we invested in whichever of shaping skill or essence mastery was cheaper.  At level 20 that's 190 skill points to play with, say 60 are thrown at spells, mechanics, leadership.  That means we buy around 12 points of shaping skill and 10 points of essence mastery.  That's not crazy on the shaping investment, but the essence mastery?  We'll be at 400 essence.  (472 at level 24.)  That's nuts.

 

Yeah, that's nuts. So I agree: At a certain point you have enough essence, and building a character that goes beyond that results in effectively wasted points.

 

That said: I still think there's a case to be made for gettin getting more essence.

 

Let's take your Rothgroth example. I'd personally want to give them overload and innate haste and also put the spray on at least a couple, but perhaps that's not optimal so let's say they just get overload. And I'm playing a guardian instead of a shaper, so that character would still have to invest some more. But that's besides the point. But let's take your example and say that 141 essence is enough and we're playing a shaper, so it fits.

 

But now start comparing skill cost again. By the time I have invested 60+ skillpoints in Battle Shaping, I am up to 9-10 skillpoints per point.

 

If I haven't bought any essence mastery, those 9 skillpoints would get me 2 levels of essence mastery, or 44 essence. And that is enough to buy all the Roths a level WITH 2 points of strength or endurance. Upgrading all 7 roths costs 35 essence, so until you do that 5 times, 35 essence is much better than a level of fire shaping. Let alone 44 essence.

 

So for Roths, the formula should be: Whatever is cheaper to get, 30-ish essence (rounding down to account for the bonus stats), or a level of shaping skill. So the essence mastery is better if it's about 2/3rds the cost of another point of battle shaping.

 

Until you reach max upgrades, which in this formula would be 7 * 43 = 301 essence.

 

Now if you used creations with more expensive upgrades, like Eyebeasts, that formula obviously changes and investing in magic shaping would be much better value for money until you reached a really huge cost discrepancy. But of course you'd need to invest some in essence mastery just to be able to afford that, so an early investment still would be a good idea.

 

So in conclusion:

 

* I still think it's smart to start investing moderately in essence mastery in the early game before you start levelling shaping skills

* Either you end up using expensive creations, so you'll need the essence.

* Or you can buy extra levels for the creations and get bonus stats for the same skill point investment

* But I agree that you should invest much more heavily in shaping skills in total

Edited April 1 by Iguana-on-a-stick

[alhoon]

14 minutes ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

Upgrading all 7 roths costs 35 essence, so until you do that 5 times, 35 essence is much better than a level of fire shaping. Let alone 44 essence.

With 10 battle Shaping and 2-3 in the other shaping trees ... could you even control 7 fully leveled Roths? 

One of my Fyoras went rogue in the mines (the attack-them kind) and I have "weak" control. 

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

10 minutes ago, alhoon said:

With 10 battle Shaping and 2-3 in the other shaping trees ... could you even control 7 fully leveled Roths? 

One of my Fyoras went rogue in the mines (the attack-them kind) and I have "weak" control. 

Haven't done the math (can't afford that many yet) but with leadership boosting control and battle shaping now providing double control boosts, all my creations are for now sitting at "perfect" control.

 

And you'd end up with much more than 10 battle shaping in this schema anyway. (I am recommending buying essence mastery only when it is MUCH cheaper than battle shaping, and as soon as you do, battle shaping becomes the better choice again because the essence mastery cost goes up.)

Edited April 1 by Iguana-on-a-stick

[Archaeolagent]

1 hour ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

Let's take your Rothgroth example. I'd personally want to give them overload and innate haste and also put the spray on at least a couple, but perhaps that's not optimal so let's say they just get overload.

Rot spray does pathetic damage compared to their attack.  I can imagine circumstances where a gazer's AoE is useful even if I don't consider it worth buying, but a Rot's is truly not good.

 

Innate Haste is mostly wasted on them because their attack only uses 6 AP.  Haste (of any variety) will never get them an extra attack if they start the turn within 1 square of their target, or if they start the turn more than 4 squares away.  That limits its utility significantly.

 

1 hour ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

So for Roths, the formula should be: Whatever is cheaper to get, 30-ish essence (rounding down to account for the bonus stats), or a level of shaping skill. So the essence mastery is better if it's about 2/3rds the cost of another point of battle shaping.

Okay, this is interseting approximating math.

 

One thing this does bring up, is that it's an option for a way to mix shaping types.  Not a super efficient one, but better than trying to pump lots of different shaping types.  I don't think it would work out super well (and notably, it works poorly for the eyebeast, who maybe would be the most tempting out-of-type "single grab").  But any levels you can get from essence don't require investing solely in one shaping type.  The issue there, I guess, is that you're limited to a small handful of essence-based levels (especially before you start investing in the less useful stats, which realistically is everything beides the primary attack stat).  But it's something, I guess.  (...actually, you can use items, like Sharon's robe, to shape the higher-difficulty-required creations, and then take them off.  But having the resulting level 12 eyebeast is just kinda funny.)

 

...the more I think about that though, the worse it sounds.  Does fire/magic gain that much by having one Rot in place of a Drakon/Glaahk, to make up for lower levels?  Not really.  (Fire AoEs you really want to go all or nothing on IMO, and the math on this is worse for magic creations.)

 

 

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

2 minutes ago, Slarti said:

One thing this does bring up, is that it's an option for a way to mix shaping types.  Not a super efficient one, but better than trying to pump lots of different shaping types.

 

Yeah, I think this is a viable strategy... at very low levels only.

 

At the start, when you're a new player figuring out if you want to go down the fire or magic or battle-shaping paths, you can use your starting shaping skills + maybe an item or two (x-skin Jerkin) to try out various creations, and use essence to boosts their level instead of investing in skills. This lets you try out tier 1 and maybe 2 (if you find a canister) creations, without having to commit to a path.

 

But at higher levels, it just won't fly.

 

[alhoon]

Both of you talked about the differences between optimal and viable. I think that for normal difficulty, even veteran difficulty, it is viable to have more than one Shaping type. Not the best, but viable. For all it's worth, I want my late-level party to have a combo of: 

 

Drayks, Gazers, a single rotdhizon + a Vlish for blessings and/or Drakon there just to have a drakon. 

My early-mid party I envision Fyoras/cryoas, a clawbug and vlish.  Or a Drayk if I can get them early. 

 

 

[Randomizer]

Even on torment difficulty a Shaper can get away with two shaping types at level 9 that can still hit almost all the time against the worst bosses. They might be at 80% ro hit chance, but will be enough. So you can have 5 or 6 tier 4 creations using one type as the tanks with higher health like rothgroths and a second as the range attackers like drakons or gazers.

 

Lower difficulties allow you to use less optimal builds that are still viable.

[Archaeolagent]

Keep in mind that Randomizer probably did a lot of other things optimally.  If you're making viable rather than optimal choices in all areas, a mixed-shaping-type party on Torment might be well below 80% to hit chance in those fights.

 

On Normal, agree it should be viable regardless.

[Mechalibur]

I also did mixed shaping on torment (as a shaper and as a guardian) since I wanted to test balance for as many creations as possible. It's absolutely doable, and there are some advantages to having more creation types available even if it's not as good as sticking to one. I tend not to optimize my character very much - the game just gives you a lot of tools to get past difficult encounters.

[alhoon]

I did some rough calculations. No, this is not for an optimized run, but for what I think I would like most. 

 

In order to have have:

2 well built Drakons (all abilities+1 level) I would need 118 essence. 

1 well built Drayk (4 abilities+3 levels) I would need 38 essence

1 Well built Ur-Drakon (4 abilities) I would need 66 essence

1 Rotdhizon/Gazer (all abilities+2/4 levels to account for lacking Battle/Magic shaping) I would need 75/70 essence. 

I would need about 297 Essence. Leaving a little essence for spells and healing, that's 310 essence. 

 

Considering I am not a completionist, I will probably be end-game at level 18-19. 

To have that dream team by level 18, I would need 14 essence mastery for 304 essence. Assuming I grab three of those free Essence Mastery things, I would need to buy up essence mastery up to 11. I realize this will kinda hamper my creations as essence mastery is anything but cheap. But it is something I need to consider. 

Chances are, I will never have that dream team...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Genernumlover]

I put some points in Essence Mastery early on in my Shaper game, in order to get more Iron Clawbugs onto the field. I'm glad that I got this information before I wasted anymore points in that.

 

I am planning on mixing Battle and Magic Shaping for a team of Rotghroths backed up by Vlish for ranged support and buffs. I want a wall between my Shaper and whatever is attacking.

 

What is the best overall shaping specialization? I was initially thinking of Fire Shaping, as you can get Fyoras and Roamers to a fairly highly level in the earlier game. Vlish seems like they'd be the best support option though. I'm wondering about which type of shaping is best in general and which is best for a class who isn't mainlining shaping.

 

 

[Randomizer]

Fire or magic are best for range attacks while battle is meant mostly for melee fighting. Iron claw bugs and rotghroths at least have some range area effect attacks and more resistance and health to keep them alive.

 

Fire is probably easier for a creation class for guardians and agents since it costs less in skill points and essence usually. Id you can afford it magic does have benefits with acid attacks, buffing vlish and eventually gazers.

[alhoon]

13 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Fire or magic are best for range attacks while battle is meant mostly for melee fighting. Iron claw bugs and rotghroths at least have some range area effect attacks and more resistance and health to keep them alive.

 

Fire is probably easier for a creation class for guardians and agents since it costs less in skill points and essence usually. Id you can afford it magic does have benefits with acid attacks, buffing vlish and eventually gazers.

 

And I cheat-saw Rotdhizons and they are absolute beasts in battle. I mean, they can get a passive 30% resistance + an active 40% resistance.... that is nuts. That works out as 52% resistance to all, effectively doubling their already high hp. 

 

 

Look, let's be honest here: There are no bad paths. All tier 4s are awesome. Sure, sure, Battle Alphas are disappointing compared to Ghaalks and Drayks, but I think they have that leap, which makes them not-useless and their damage scales with level. 

 

Now, the Clawbugs (not the iron ones) were a real disappointment. 

Edited April 15 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

And I cheat-saw Rotdhizons and they are absolute beasts in battle. I mean, they can get a passive 30% resistance + an active 40% resistance.... that is nuts. That works out as 52% resistance to all, effectively doubling their already high hp.

Rotdhizons are crazy expensive compared to Rotghroths, have lower damage potential, and while the resistances are neat and do make them tanky -- you have to pay extra essence for those as well.  (Also, the active 40% resistance is only to physical and acid, not everything.)

 

 

[alhoon]

7 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

Rotdhizons are crazy expensive compared to Rotghroths, have lower damage potential, and while the resistances are neat and do make them tanky -- you have to pay extra essence for those as well.  (Also, the active 40% resistance is only to physical and acid, not everything.)

 

Yes. I have seen all those too. Which is why I said I would need 14 essence mastery and end-level to get 4x4 (four tier four) creations, and even then, the non-Primary ones would be far more expensive (bought levels) and still way below the level I need. 

And if I invest that heavily in essence mastery, my primary Shaping class will take a severe hit. 

I am all about playing suboptimal if it is fun, but buying up to 11 essence mastery by the end game is going to seriously gimp my character. 

 

It is quite clear you cannot have all the top-tiers. Even getting Rotdhizons, requires battle shaping 5. Battle Shaping 5 requires me to buy 2 more battle shaping. Gazers require me to buy magic shaping 2 (and then wear my magic armor for 3, shape and ditch the armor). And if I do that, the Gazer would be easily 10 levels below the Drakons. At that point, I would be much better off with another drayk. 

I bought Vlish from Carnelian and the ones I can make, even if I buy every level I can for them, are much weaker than my Fyora. 

 

Look, the TL;DR version is: dreaming of the 4x4 is good... as a dream. I have managed it in the past. Now, it is a serious handicap, not just suboptimal, like the challenges people like, like playing solo or pacifist. It requires serious investment of my finite amount of skill points for something very suboptimal.  

Even if you get the 4x4, the huge level disparity would make your non-primaries as useful as tier 3 of your main path. 

Edited April 15 by alhoon

[Genernumlover]

My current issue with Essence Mastery is that it requires the protagonist to make deals with infernals in order to get enough Essence to upgrade endgame creations.

 

My Shaper used the Essence Mastery canister in the Geneforge and is level 21, with only Gazak-Uss to go, but he still don't have enough essence to fully upgrade his team of Battle Alphas, or to replace them with Battle Betas.

[Hyperion703]

@Genernumlover 

1. There are other ways to master your essence besides dealing with shadowy infernals. Large reptiles and meglomaniacal egomaniacs have been known to 'master them some essence' and keep some around for tingly enemas. So you can try looking there. Also, you can master your own essence by finding a quiet, secluded, out-of-the-way spot, then firmly gripping your essence, and vigorously mastering it by clicking "+" to the right of the Essence Mastery number in your stats menu. Try it; it's easy and fun. But don't forget to bring a towel.

 

2. Of what does a "team" consist? How many _______ make up a "team"? Is it greater or less than a "plethora"?

 

3. If your answer for #2 is six or more, it is not advisable to add every upgrade to your creations. In fact, it's probably never advisable to add every upgrade to your creations. But, if you are hellbent on doing so, this might be a case of 'which do you want more?' Specifically, do you want a buttload of creations? Or do you want them fully upgraded? Because it's my understanding that you cannot have both.

Edited May 17 by Hyperion703

[Randomizer]

You missed the essence mastery canister in the Everfrost Mine when doing the Sholai Mission quest.

[Genernumlover]

To answer the questions raised:

 

I mean a full team as in seven creations. I usually like to aim for things like Drayks, Battle Alphas, or Glaahks, and upgrade them. Ideally I'd like to get a full team of Battle Betas or Ur-Glaahks and upgrade them to see how they fare.

 

I generally play as an Awakened or Servant.

 

I refused to take the Sholai to Everfrost Mine. Can you complete the quest and then eradicate them? I agree with Pinner and Zakary that spreading Shaping to the Sholai lands would be a horrible idea. That Barzahl is in favor of it is rather telling.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

To answer the questions raised:

 

I mean a full team as in seven creations. I usually like to aim for things like Drayks, Battle Alphas, or Glaahks, and upgrade them. Ideally I'd like to get a full team of Battle Betas or Ur-Glaahks and upgrade them to see how they fare.

 

I generally play as an Awakened or Servant.

 

I refused to take the Sholai to Everfrost Mine. Can you complete the quest and then eradicate them? I agree with Pinner and Zakary that spreading Shaping to the Sholai lands would be a horrible idea. That Barzahl is in favor of it is rather telling.

 

 

I am 95% sure you can go to the Mine (I guess - not there yet) without ever talking to the Sholai. You walk there. 

Take it from me though NEVER trust Lying Zackary the Deceiver! He tells you one thing, and means something opposite. The Sholai showed up because of Zakary, BTW. Barzhal is in favor because he's a madman. An oppressive madman. It is quite telling that all his "poweeeerzzz for eeeeveryyyyoneeee!!!!" does not include sharing the secrets of Drakons till it is time to use them as some disgruntled Barzhite tells you. 

 

Now, on your other part of the question: It is suboptimal to go for both magic / battle creations. It has been proven that it is better to have one category at 12 than two categories at 9/9. Also, Battle-Betas and Ur-Glaahks are considered by those that do the number-crunching too expensive for their worth.  

[Genernumlover]

5 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

 

I am 95% sure you can go to the Mine (I guess - not there yet) without ever talking to the Sholai. You walk there. 

Take it from me though NEVER trust Lying Zackary the Deceiver! He tells you one thing, and means something opposite. The Sholai showed up because of Zakary, BTW. Barzhal is in favor because he's a madman. An oppressive madman. It is quite telling that all his "poweeeerzzz for eeeeveryyyyoneeee!!!!" does not include sharing the secrets of Drakons till it is time to use them as some disgruntled Barzhite tells you. 

 

Now, on your other part of the question: It is suboptimal to go for both magic / battle creations. It has been proven that it is better to have one category at 12 than two categories at 9/9. Also, Battle-Betas and Ur-Glaahks are considered by those that do the number-crunching too expensive for their worth.  

 

I think the canister is only accessible during that quest though. The bunkers are closed until you bring the Sholai with you.

 

I don't trust Zakary. The man wants you to fix his mistakes and he sat on his hands while supposedly hoping that Shanti, who he basically imprisoned, was going to join him. He was probably hoping that she'd see the extent of the damage he unleashed and that way she'd help him before returning to the Shapers. When she died, he switched his attention over to her apprentice. Pinner is a good leader though.

 

Barzahl's idea is the democratization of power and eternal youth at the cost of sanity and morals. That's a nightmare scenario.

 

I should clarify that I was speaking of an either or situation, not mixing creation types. I would like a team of either Battle Betas or Ur-Glaahks with different characters. My current team of Battle Alphas is pretty good, but my issue is that there doesn't seem to be enough Essence Mastery to build a completely upgraded team of standard tier three Shaper creation types, let alone their upgraded forms.

[alhoon]

Please delete, sorry. Out of topic.

Edited May 17 by alhoon

[Randomizer]

The Everfrost Mine canister is only accessible if you do the Sholai Mission quest and while you are there the that time. The bunker is closed if you don't use it and return later.

[Genernumlover]

11 hours ago, Randomizer said:

The Everfrost Mine canister is only accessible if you do the Sholai Mission quest and while you are there the that time. The bunker is closed if you don't use it and return later.

 

Thank you for the information! That's interesting, and good to know. If I helped the Sholai and decided I wanted the canister later, it'd be unavailable.

[Lorn]

I upped essence mastery this time. Just two points at level 7 (?) gave me the possibility to get another fyora fully maxed for a total of 2. It was a huge bump.