The Crystal Soul theft

[Dado]

Why the empire stolen the Crystal Souls and when the empire know the Vahnatai race?

[Alorael at Large]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The Empire doesn't know very much about the vahnatai, but they do apparently know that vahnatai turn into crystals sometimes and that those crystals are powerful. The Empire likes being powerful.

 

—Alorael, who also thinks the Empire's policy of not getting along with anyone but humans and not even very well with some humans, notably Avernum, may have something to do with it.

[Drakefyre]

The Empire discovered the Vahnatai and made a pact with Gaddika, who agreed to help them steal some crystal souls so the Empire could learn about crystal magic and Vahnatai secrets.

[Dado]

And when the Empire discovered the Vahnatai? After or before the assassination of Hawthorn

[Alorael at Large]

The thefts were after, but there's no way to know when the Empire's first contact with the vahnatai was. It couldn't have been too long before A2 because none of the vahnatai had been awake for long. In my baseless opinion the encounter with the vahnatai, the deal with Gaddika, and the kidnappings all happened after Hawthorne's assassination.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that the Empire could easily have discovered the existence of the vahnatai while examining the caves more closely once Avernum went from the Empire's unwanted person disposal area to a real threat.

[Drakefyre]

I'm pretty sure it's said that they were discovered when the Empire was scouting out where to deploy troops and where to build the teleporter, all of which happened after Hawthorne's assassination.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

i think its more plausible that the empire learned of the vahnatai before or during a1.

they explored much of avernum during the first expedition, and had an observative presence in many places after that. considering the amount of vahnatai relics in those parts and the competence of the empire agents, they mustve found something.

and considering empire policies, they mustve found out about the vahnatai caves etc.

they wouldnt steal powerful, weird, alien crystals without knowing about them for a while.

[Alorael at Large]

The First Expedition never reported back because it was annihilated. The Empire may or may not have put effort into exploring further. The fact that there were ruins and crystal bits in the caves was probably no secret to the Empire, but even the Avernites who lived literally on top of the vahnatai didn't know anything about them. I'm not so sure that the Empire's agents are fearsomely cunning and competent. Avernum could just as easily have been written off as a place with a few boring mysteries and lots of deadly monsters, perfect for banishment and not much else.

 

I think you have the Empire's modus operandi backwards, too. They would be only too happy to steal something magical and powerful in order to learn about it, which seems to be exactly what they do to the three captured Crystal Souls in A2.

 

—Alorael, who thinks of the Empire as collectively competent at keeping order and destroying threats. Everything else is more or less at the mercy of individuals' talents, and those vary.

[Randomizer]

From Valley of the Dying Things you get some indications that the Empire was for gathering specimens and studying them. They didn't seem to care how the specimens felt as in the case of those left behind when the school closed. Although it was interesting that the Alien beasts were already being studied at the school years before the Vahnatai let them loose as a plague. This implies that R-I used existing creatures for all the plagues and that Avernum could run into those slimes and other creatures as they explore the caves.

 

The Empire probably encountered the Vahnatai as they were setting up bases ahead of the invasion. They would have been looking for secure sites and alternate routes that they could move armies through. I wonder where the Empire teleporter base in the Vahnatai lands is located.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Ulation:
The First Expedition never reported back because it was annihilated.

Didn't it? Obviously the FE never came back alive, but they did have those brooches, which were originally designed as long-distance communication devices. We don't really know what information, if any, they sent back.

[Drakefyre]

I'm pretty sure they sent some info back, or else they wouldn't have known what to expect when they sent down victims.

[Lilith]

Come to think of it, people didn't know what to expect when they were sent down -- I recall a conversation somewhere in one of the Exile games mentioning that some people on the surface believed that there was no air in Exile and everyone sent there died quickly, while a few believed it was a paradise. So if the FE did send information back, it was kept secret from the general public.

[Drakefyre]

Well, I think they mention that they knew about the demons and sliths at least, but whether that came from scrying or the FE I don't know.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

i never doubted the empires greediness (sp?) or anything, i just dont think they wouldve taken them just like that, badabingbadaboom.

and brooches or not brooches, in a1 you encounter at least one fully intact and operating empire base observing the NW region of avernum. they actually use magic crystals which remind me very much of those of the vahnatai. there were many other clues of both vahnatai and empire presence through a1, which i cant fully recall.

 

if the player can discover those things, why shouldnt empire elite troops and adventurers? its easy to put together, especially considering the ghosts that actually tell you about the vahnatai.

of course, they didnt have to tell the empire anything, but there are ways to make ghosts talk.

 

and how could the empire have such good connections to the rebel vahnatai so quickly, if not because they were prepared?

[Drakefyre]

It wasn't so much a good connection as "We'll give you lots of gold for a crystal soul." Gaddika already had his own separate fortress and was easily identifiable as a rebel.

[Alorael at Large]

The Empire can't have met the vahnatai in person much before A1 becauses the vahnatai were all Resting. There may have been more or less knowledge gathered, but no real interaction.

 

The Empire's presence in Avernum is focused on making sure the Avernites don't rise up and, say, kill the emperor. There's no evidence that they're focusing any attention at all on the caves. Their crystal ball communication device doesn't seem like a vahnatai trick to me. There are several Avernites who have scrying tools like that, and it's not a big leap to having two-way scrying crystals.

 

—Alorael, who recalls hearing that the evidence of the vahnatai didn't exist in E1 and was inserted in A1. If that's true, that strongly suggests the vahnatai didn't exist yet in E1/A1, which means the Empire can't be using vahnatai magic. But that's approaching a teleological Avernum.

[Drakefyre]

There is a little bit of Vahnatai info on the approach to Grah-Hoth in Exile I (v2.0), but who knows if it was in 1.0.

[Wizzywig]

The oldest version of Exile I can find is v1.1.1. for windows.

 

Here.

 

Mac users can see if this works.

[Alorael at Large]

The Mac version works fine in Classic. Thanks!

 

—Alorael, who realizes that he probably has v1.1 himself, not 1.0 like he thought. But it's definitely pre-AP and there's nothing quite like the "uh-eek!" death sound.

[Micawber]

Oh no, but that's no fun. You've got to have uh-eek and chug-a-chug sound effects or it's just not Exile.

[Alorael at Large]

That's what I meant. Actually, I think all versions of E1 have the same sounds, but that's good. Accept no substitutes!

 

—Alorael, who is especially fond of "Cool!" and, of course, the GIFTS sounds. Are those the only ones to survive through the entire trilogy?

[Micawber]

What about mmmm and kerching?

[Drakefyre]

I like the "oh who?" one that sounds like "munson?".

[Alorael at Large]

"On who?"

 

I eventually figured it out, mostly from context, but I spent years believing it was some generic magicallish sound.

 

—Alorael, who also remembers the days when spell costs were equal to spell levels. Then, alas, came Rituals of Sanctification and their horrific costs.

[be_cavalier]

And didn't Identify cost a crazy amount of SP in Exile 3 that it didn't cost in Exile 2? I think it also worked on all un-identified items in your inventory in E3 though.

 

I really don't miss having to identify items. Especially the ones that seem to be clearly labeled. "Hmm, this sword is on fire. I wonder what it could be?"

[Drakefyre]

The recharge spell for wands was pretty awesome from Exile 1. So was Unholy Ravaging.

[Randomizer]

Identify in Exile 2 did each item for a separate cost, where E3 did all items at once so it paid to save up a bunch for one time identifying. Avernum makes it based upon a formula of intelligence, mage level, and arcane lore so you should get better as the game progresses. A4 eliminated it completely.

 

Actually I liked how high barter allowed you to sell junk and cursed items so you didn't waste your effort.

[Enalya]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
So was Unholy Ravaging.

That sounds really dirty...

Anyway back to the topic...It says in Avernum 2, that the Empire had contact with the rebel Vahnatai for 2 years prior to the Avernites contact. Theres a message in Gadikka's fortress in the human living quarters about it.

[Drakefyre]

Thanks for finding that! That puts it squarely between Av1 and Av2.