My biggest gripe with TBased Party Rpgs and Melee

[Death Knight]

I get it, you have to be exact that things will be accurate but it stands now that there's always something against melee in turn based party based games. I must be in the minority as I would say that most party based games now, melee is rarely used ALL the time. This is one of the reasons why I love Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale so much. They're tough in some ways, but you can at least attack with melee all the time.

 

Its like fairly obvious that melee decides a lot so why are turn based games always so partial to making archers and mages into kings. There are plenty of good games where melee is actually useful ALL the time.

 

The quest by redshift is fairly accurate with making melee strong but they at least make it possible to slay ranged characters. Fighters get turned into gods when you combine strength and endurance with magic resistance. Its a wicked combo and its still hard game nonetheless.

 

Eschalon series by Basilisk Games is excellently favorable to melee. You can actually use it not only all the time, but as a defense as well as an offense.

 

Fallout 1 and 2 is actually fair to melee as well which is odd. Give yourself 2 or even 3 perks of toughness and watch as enemies can't harm you. Combine that with a good endurance and your good.

 

Driftmoon is fair to both melee and ranged which is odd as its usually one or the other.

 

What I am trying to see is whether or not we will ever see a game like that on spiderweb. Avadon is a great game, but try playing it with a sword is like pulling teeth. Geneforge is partial to ranged weapons as stun is only useful with ranged weapons. Avernum has enemies knocking people around cursing with immobility, ugh. Its all realistic but the question is will melee ever be useful in a turn based party game? It just seems like archers and spell casters run the show.

[Lilith]

Try Avernum 4 or Geneforge 2. In both of those games, a melee character with high Parry is basically invincible.

[Death Knight]

Try Avernum 4 or Geneforge 2. In both of those games, a melee character with high Parry is basically invincible.

 

Are you sure? I knew of Geneforge 2 but Avernum 4? I figured that since the ap system favors ranged combat. I guess parry was broken.

 

Im just saying it seems that only the D and D specific games have melee always as king. I just want to know why?

[Randomizer]

Avernum 4 is still possible with Parry and even Avernum 5. Although a melee character needs several swords for monsters that are immune to physical damage.

 

Avadon with immobility and knockbacks requires a range attack.

 

Edit - D&D favors mages if they can survive long enough to get the high level spells. Level 5 with your first fireball is the turning point in first edition.

[Alorael at Large]

You're not asking for the games to make melee useful and usable; it's just that in all Spiderweb games, really. You're asking for it to be dominant, and I have to ask why? Why should melee be one of the best options, always? I think a game is tactically richer if you sometimes have to do something else because there are wrong choices that will get your party massacred.

 

Jeff doesn't make encounters designed to completely shut down melee, really, except on the highest difficulties. It's against his design philosophy of making sure players don't get too frustrated. But he does make encounters that favor spells or archers. Remember, there are plenty of people who love those as much as you love melee.

 

—Alorael, who isn't even sure how Baldur's Gate made melee king. High-level mages are just as overpowering in that as they are in the edition of D&D it's based on

[Ohsky]

In All spiderweb games i had played the best chars i had were the warriors. All Geneforge series, Avadon, Avernum EFTP, and Avernum 2 wich im playing right now, i use melee all the time, much more than spells or archery. A well trained melee warrior mixed with some healing skills, in all those games, does a well enough job.

[Cairo Jim]

I thought melee was already dominant, in SW games anyway. My fighters I use in Avernum deal much more damge than my spell casters. That being said, I don't use thrown weapons or archery at all.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Cairo Jim

[Death Knight]

What Im saying is that its ok that Avadon is ranged dominant, but Avernum and even Geneforge series also give more props to ranged characters.

 

Avernum The Pit-the last dungeon where I fought Grah Hoth, my 2 fighters were useless against him and my hedge wizard was the only useful character. The fighters with maxed parry just got knocked around and did very little. The only reason that I won the fight was because I slammed myself into the wedge corner and let my wizard slam them with spells while my fighters slammed off invaders. The fighters were useful all up until that fight which was tedious and made them look like a bunch of cowards.

 

Geneforge is fairly good with damage from melee for the first 3 games, but like avernum positioning yourself to get close to vlish and artila early on is just deadly.

 

You see a lot of it is about luck. You get lucky and maybe 2 more vlish or artila don't gang up on your thadh and murder you and your guardian.

 

Im not saying that he should change but if your going to go all out with melee or ranged at least go 100% of the way. Take this in retrospect, I have never had any problems with any of the other infinity engine games with melee. They may be real time but it is what it is.

 

I usually don't even bother trying melee in any of jeffs games as its obviously only intended for soaking up damage. Look at all 4 classes in avadon. Every character in the game is meant to be played with dexterity and whatever other thing you prefer. Melee is a fools thing and that doesn't make the game bad, but isn't it a little funny that for a warrior or shaman, most of their points go into dexterity and not strength and intelligence.

 

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I doubt it. The only saving grace is that my guardian I'm playing right now is a ranged weapons expert. They might not do as much damage as melee (like Avernum), but there are many things you can do with ranged weapons that is better. Lets look at the facts-my melee guardian put all his points in the works, melee, strength, qa, endurance, leadership and mechanics. Yet my ranged guardian not only doesn't die as much, but actually has a use other than getting killed all the time.

 

Factor this in as well-You are even able to command your creations better from the back than from the front. So what we have here is a guardian that is better with 1 or 2 creations from the back rather from the front. I'm glad that works for me and its a heck of a lot of fun but doesn't anyone think that's strange?

 

I'm not dishing the games in any way. What I am just saying is that I've gotten used to just going along with ranged combat as I can't rely on melee in any way shape or form in any of his games.

[Alorael at Large]

Spiderweb games with dual wielding give the damage advantage to melee. Yes, that's A6. I'm not positive about AEftP, but dual wielding certainly isn't terrible.

 

Dexterity's dominance in Avadon is actually unintended, and it's not the way you absolutely must do it. I played the game with an entirely Strength-based shadowwalkers and blademaster and Intelligence-based shaman and sorceress. Ranged weapons were strictly for when I wasn't in range yet. It worked out just fine. Is ranged better? Yes, because Dex is too good, but that wasn't Jeff's intention.

 

Geneforge is rough on being solo. Doing it requires you to rely heavily on sneaky tactics or, in later games, mental magic. That's just how the games are; it's a magic-driven plot and it's fitting that your characters suffer if they don't use magic too.

 

—Alorael, who is still reading your distaste for melee that can't be relied on, but many people can and do use melee in these games. The real complaint is that ranged is better. Which is often true, but something has to be. It's too bad you don't like it; Jeff's unlikely to overhaul things. (Although toned-down Dexterity is almost certainly coming in Avadon 2. It's too ridiculous.)

[Death Knight]

The thing still stands that blademaster is more lethal with a bow rather than with a sword/spear. This is a really crazy thing to add for a class dubbed a tank. Maybe jeff was meaning for blademaster to be a vanguard (aka a tankish ranged weapon user that sometimes uses melee). If that is the case then he has succeeded in it.

 

As for the shadowalker, I dont see why he would even include swords and what not. The character is 5 times more powerful and is almost geared for high dexterity. Also noting the fact that ninja were experts in shuriken (razordisks). The only thing I can think of with shadowalkers would be to disarming blow an enemy and shadowstep and use the debuff to get into ranged combat. Other than that, I still find that as waste of time for a class where each attack from afar is a chance for a cleaving flurry of razordisks.

 

The shaman is a spellcaster with some tankish survival abilities. She is excellent when it comes to dealing damage with spirit aoe and the acid aoe. Combine them together and with vulnerability curse can deal major damage from afar.

 

Sorceress is a natural ranged combat expert.

 

So 4 classes with 1 that can use melee only when in range. And even that is occasional. The blademaster is really only able to use melee when chump enemies are ganging up on him, other than that he is a ranged weapon user.

 

Lets do Geneforge 1-3

 

Guardian-uses melee when everything closes, other than that, he uses ranged weapons when fighting against artila, vlish, cryoas, and any other ranged creation that is annoying.Most of the time guardians are very weak with getting ganged up on, even with creations to support. You get all enemies to attack you, you are dead regardless of stats.

 

Agent-Ranged weapon user and doesnt use melee almost at all. If she does then its the 3rd game with daze being good which makes her better at melee than a guardian.

 

Shaper-Ranged weapon master. His weapons are his army of creations and he will never go near melee.

 

So you've got 1 character that uses melee half the time and none of the other classes have a benefit to it.

 

Its still a lot of fun to play a ranged weapon character in his games but archer characters get old quick; Fighters have so many different type of ways to make them and its debatable which is better. With ranged combat the finesse character always wins most of the time.

 

Whatever jeff does to Avadon 2 I doubt he will change the system of ranged combat, which is fine. What I dont know is what he can possibly do to make dexterity not as powerful. Maybe make a more chosen approach with more endurance. I dont know.

[Lilith]

Whatever jeff does to Avadon 2 I doubt he will change the system of ranged combat, which is fine. What I dont know is what he can possibly do to make dexterity not as powerful. Maybe make a more chosen approach with more endurance. I dont know.

 

Judging by the skill tree, it seems like the design intent in Avadon was for most blademasters and shadowwalkers to be melee/ranged hybrids. Unfortunately, the way the game mechanics worked meant that going all ranged all the time was a better option. Basing accuracy off Dexterity and damage off Strength for both melee and ranged attacks would probably help encourage this, but I don't know if that'll actually happen.

[Death Knight]

Geneforge 1-3 is ranged based but Im not sure which is better in G4 and G5. Im using a ranged weapons char in G1, its almost too awesome. With a creation to melee and some missile weapons skill, you should have no problem with the main bad guys. G4 and 5 probably are melee based because the ap points is reduced to 1 making melee more useful. If I remember, vlish are still annoying regardless of the change, lol.

[Ohsky]

Geneforge 1-3 is ranged based

 

Ranged based?, not in my case. But if you are so entailed in your way of thinking.... go ahead man, keep venting

[Ohsky]

Seriously, It all depends in what you love to be in game. If you don´t have any faith in melee to succeed it won´t for you.

 

Turn based games give advantage to range attack users till you get at them with your tank, and shred them to pieces. Because the balance is usually made for your warriors to resist the initial distance separating them to go hand to hand combat. In early stages of those games it could seem different though.

[SamSniped]

I find it completely possible to do a playthrough of Geneforge 4 primarily using a sword and dealing out over 120 damage in a single hit with enough quick action. Mind you, I'm never a pure swordfighter, but I always default to my sword in those cases when I am playing that way.

[Xaiya]

I find it completely possible to do a playthrough of Geneforge 4 primarily using a sword and dealing out over 120 damage in a single hit with enough quick action. Mind you, I'm never a pure swordfighter, but I always default to my sword in those cases when I am playing that way.

You don't even have to deal a single bit of damage yourself (including your own creations) in G4 to beat the game, actually.

[Val Ritz]

The thing still stands that blademaster is more lethal with a bow rather than with a sword/spear. This is a really crazy thing to add for a class dubbed a tank. Maybe jeff was meaning for blademaster to be a vanguard (aka a tankish ranged weapon user that sometimes uses melee). If that is the case then he has succeeded in it.

 

As for the shadowalker, I dont see why he would even include swords and what not. The character is 5 times more powerful and is almost geared for high dexterity. Also noting the fact that ninja were experts in shuriken (razordisks). The only thing I can think of with shadowalkers would be to disarming blow an enemy and shadowstep and use the debuff to get into ranged combat. Other than that, I still find that as waste of time for a class where each attack from afar is a chance for a cleaving flurry of razordisks.

 

The shaman is a spellcaster with some tankish survival abilities. She is excellent when it comes to dealing damage with spirit aoe and the acid aoe. Combine them together and with vulnerability curse can deal major damage from afar.

 

Sorceress is a natural ranged combat expert.

 

So 4 classes with 1 that can use melee only when in range. And even that is occasional. The blademaster is really only able to use melee when chump enemies are ganging up on him, other than that he is a ranged weapon user.

 

Etc.

 

It all depends on how you want to play. Personally as far as Avadon goes I only use Sevilin's bow when he's not in range of something to spear it yet. As far as the shadowwalker goes, having a melee weapon is more of a backup than anything else, for if you're pinned against a wall with your shadow step on cooldown. Or, you know, if you want Kill Bill instead of House of Flying Daggers. The way the magical classes were designed means that the Shaman is probably better at being closer up, while the Sorceress is better suited to being further away. The classes are all hybrids, with a specific leaning that says "this way would probably be best, but go crazy."

 

Overall this discussion is just a matter of personal taste. Are ranged characters the easiest way to use the world map as a napkin? Probably. Can you still do the same thing using melee or magic? Absolutely.

[Randomizer]

Avadon was a new game engine and one bug that never got fixed was dexterity made a huge difference in defense. Avernum: Escape from the Pit used some combat engine features and addressed the problem some, but not completely. However Avernum has weaker range attacks compared with Avadon.

 

Jeff's still tweaking Avadon 2 so how much the balance is shifted from range attacks is still to be determined. But as long as you are facing melee attackers, a range attacker will get free rounds to attack.

[Death Knight]

I find it completely possible to do a playthrough of Geneforge 4 primarily using a sword and dealing out over 120 damage in a single hit with enough quick action. Mind you, I'm never a pure swordfighter, but I always default to my sword in those cases when I am playing that way.

 

I find that Geneforge has good use of melee and is fairly easy to get around minor problems. Im currently in G1 with my solo guardian. The only thing I don't like about Geneforge series is that the party dynamics are very much different from Avadon and Avernum. In Avadon and Avernum you get a party of other human/semihuman characters to adventure with. With Geneforge I just can't get into that party type with monsters that you don't keep till the endgame. Its all about switching monster types until you get a 3rd tier type. My take on party dynamics is you start out with a party and you stay with that party.

 

But that is why you can play Geneforge solo I guess.