How to play G3 without feeling like a monster?

[RaustBlackDragon]

Hey, I'm considering giving Geneforge 3 another shot. The reason I gave up on it the first time was because every option felt like choosing between being a racist or a terrorist. Does anybody have any advice for me about choices I could make that would give me the feeling that I've actually improved the game world rather than make it worse by the end?

[Death Knight]

Ive said it once and I'll say it again-Shapers are the way to go. While rebels may sound more benevolent at first, they are not so much when you figure that they do everything that shapers do and MUCH worse.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Whenever faced with choices just do what you think is the most ethical option, that seems the best way to me without going into the Shaper/Rebel ebate, although I do agree with Death knight about what faction is better.

[Triumph]

I agree that supporting the Shapers is the better way (not much better, admittedly, but better). Taking out the source rogues on Harmony and NOT giving Lankan the canister ought to remove the source of conflicts and set the stage for reconciliation; it's not your fault that Lankan (to a greater degree) and DIwaniya (to a lesser degree) are both idiots. On Dhonal's, well, you can murder a fellow shaper aid the repair of a super-monster-creator to aid the forces that devastated half the island, or you can destroy the super-monster-creator. Then on Gull Island...well, you can side with Khyryk, one of the most interesting characters in the game, or you can kill him (whether or not you've killed Khyryk when you jump on the boat to Spears is what determines whether your endgame is rebel or shaper).

 

The main aspect of the game tries to guilt-trip you into joining the rebels involves choices of what you say - feel free to express sympathy for creations in conversation (though of course this will irk some shaper-people). The rebels sometimes talk a good game, but as the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. I find both factions reprehensible in their own special wars ( ), but in terms of what they ask you do to (as opposed to what they say or what others in that faction do), the rebels are often worse. In my opinion, the thing in the game that actually creates the most pro-rebel sympathy is Icy End - a town full of often friendly creations (if you arrived on Spears as a rebel) who show that the rebellion is more than crazed monsters burning homes or power-mad drakons or whacked-out shapers.

[Brocktree]

Since when are resistance fighters under the thumb of a genocidal regime obliged to play fair?

[RaustBlackDragon]

Since when are resistance fighters under the thumb of a genocidal regime obliged to play fair?

 

It's not about playing fair, it's about actually bringing about improvement. The Drayks and drakons are pretty much all-around even more monstrous than the human shapers.

[Brocktree]

They've never had a chance to establish a civilisation in peacetime, so you can't know that. They might be quite nice when people aren't trying to wipe them off the face of the earth.

[Sudanna]

In the actual rebel ending, they more or less turn out to be doubly oppressive.

[Brocktree]

No they don't. Also, I've already pointed out that you can't draw a comparison between a resistance force in wartime vs. a government in peacetime. Even when the Shaper Government had centuries of peace and prosperity, they *still* felt the need to commit genocide and enslave entire species.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

...or, realize that you're playing a game, and are not bound to some ethical system that's even made up IRL. Just imagine a character and play that guy. You can do this as often and as crazily as you want, that's the beauty of RPG gaming.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

They've never had a chance to establish a civilisation in peacetime, so you can't know that. They might be quite nice when people aren't trying to wipe them off the face of the earth.

I agree, mostly their chief character fault is their greed for everything(wealth, power), but when one really looks at it humans are pretty much the same.

[Catoblepas]

I think the key is that many of the nasty things you have to do to get the Shaper ending are completely optional, while the Rebel ending requires you to do some rather heinous things. Killing the rebels on the second island is optional, and avoidable, as is killing the servile farmers on the last island. by contrast, playing a rebel requires you to murder a fellow shaper and fix the creator-a being causing untold numbers of innocent civilian deaths, and Kill Kyrk-possibly the most relatable shaper in the game, so that the rebels can execute some malnourished captive shapers they are holding prisoner.

 

As mentioned previously, the Rebels talk good, but go against their own preachings at virtually every opportunity, and are worse in pretty much every regard compared to the shapers. They have no regard for civilian casulties, and in fact seem to prefer striking at civilian targets. Similarly, they seem to relish using torture on any captives they aquire-starving, freezing, flogging, to death pretty much everyone who falls into their grasp. There are plenty of examples of this displayed front and center on many of the maps, so It's pretty much unavoidable being exposed to this, while only rebel players will be exposed to the shaper torture dungeon, and only in the endgame. Considering most of the devastation you see throughout the game, including the destruction of your school, are caused by the rebels, purposefully.

 

Likewise, despite talking about making outsiders and creations equal, it is obvious that the Drakons intend to create a hierarchy of their own, merely replacing the Shapers at the top of the pyramid while restricting Drayk, servile, and human power. But providing any of the societal benefits that shapers did (hunting down rogues, making sure only responsible folks can shape, outlawing self-shaping). Litalia has obvious low regard for the lives of the creations beneath her, stating that she doesn't care what you do to the creator on the first island, and even faucilitating an outsider's mini-rebellion on one of the maps by letting him mind control the serviles under him.

 

Then there is the cannister issue. We know from Gull island that the rebels know what the addictive and dehabilitating properties of cannisters are capable of, yet they purposefully either leave them in your path or try to bribe you with them. It's pretty obvious that they are trying to addict you to them, to make you their pet junkie. We further know that the supernatural aura that draws shapers towards them (and seduces them into using them) is an intended design feature, because we know from the second island that they are fully capable of removign this feature, adn even designing cannisters that have the opposite effect.

 

All in all, I would say that the rebels are conclusively worse in pretty much every regard compared to the shapers. They torture and kill both innocents and shapers alike, including many people your character would have known from the school. They try to trick you into joining by using what amounts to drugs and bribery. They don't even follow their own teachings of creation rights, create rogues purposefully to attack neutral targets, use self-shaping despite knowledge of its side effects. From the perspective of a prospective member of the shaper order, they really don't hold up that well compared to the shapers, a group that the MC apparently thought highly enough of to attempt to join.

 

If this isn't enough, there are also the various endings which show what happens when the rebels win, which shows that they only get worse, if anything.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Yeah, one of the biggest issues I had with the idea of going shaper was having to deal with Greta (my favorite of the two partners) abandoning me and calling me out on a bunch of atrocious deeds. Thankfully, now I honestly can't imagine how she could possibly be justified in being mad at me.

 

Yeah, I've noticed what people have been saying about Rebels talking a good game, but I've looked at Greta quite differently since giving the game another shot. She's clearly quite compassionate, but she's also incredibly naive and vindictive, ready to blame the shapers for anything bad involving shaping, even stuff that can't sanely be attributed to the shapers after a little thought (spawners, Torsten's sickness). I still think that Alwan is a zealous tool and not somebody you would ever invite to, well, anything, but I agree that, at least in G3, the shapers are the way to go. I'm not so sure about G4 (haven't gotten too far in it, and the rebels seem a bit more ethical in that one), but at least for G3 it seems pretty clear-cut now. It's a shame that Greta will leave, but I suspect I'll find the moment amusing rather than actually guilt-tripping.

[Dikiyoba]

G4 somewhat divides the rebellion into a human/servile/drayk section and a drakon section (in terms of deeds and attitudes, not in terms of gameplay), so even if you hate the drakons you may find reasons to support the rebels and go for the rebel ending. G4 also has a hard-to-find third faction you can choose.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Wizard Orcasus]

From all of this what ever the shapers are or the rebels are the faction that more good is Trakovites.

So you need to see it like this: number one: Trakovites

number two: Shapers.

number three: Rebels P.S I say that magic nor shaping abilities should not exist like in the real world

but i like magic much more.

[Halt]

Honestly, if you don't like either faction, try to see if their is a neutral option(s)(Trajkovite- Why did they name it trajkovite? Trajkov made creations...and sought to destroy the shapers) But if you can't shapers is the more... 'sane' option...

[Triumph]

There is no third way in G3 - that's the whole point of the discussion. You absolutely MUST side with either the Shapers or the Rebels. It's the only game in the series to offer only two choices for your endgame.

 

The name "Trakovite" first appears in G4, where it is a corruption of Trajkov; the facts have been largely lost by that time (decades after the rediscovery of Sucia, plus a bunch of purges and wars and such that more or less killed off everyone who knew anything), and only vague rumors survive.

[Student of Trinity]

The Trajkov -> Trakov corruption was one of Jeff's clever subtle touches, I thought.

 

I think Brocktree has a point, here. One should think a bit more about whether keeping blood off your own hands personally is really reason enough to support a regime that enslaves millions. I don't think there's an obviously right call either way.

 

I don't think there's really an obvious right call in any of the Geneforge games. The Awakened used to seem like that to a lot of people, in G1 and G2, but I always thought that the closer you looked at what the Awakened were really doing, the less ideal it looked.

 

In my opinion the best way to play these games is what Rent-an-Ihrno said. Imagine a character who would whole-heartedly choose one side or the other, and pretend to be that person for the course of the game. Or imagine a character who would start out on one side and then switch, at one of the possible switching points, and play as them. That lets you get a lot of replay out of the game, but it also helps you see all sides of the issue. I think it's a valuable moral exercise. You might then find that you personally still favored one side over the other, but if so, you'd have a much better understanding of why that was.

[wackypanda]

I like the idea of imagining a character for each side, because I usually play that way as well. That said, I have a very hard time imagining a full rebel for G3, or at least one who's in in for their philosophy. (As it is, my character is in it for canisters.) My Shaper character was a moderate who tended to say pro-rebel things and figured that he could become like Khyryk.

 

G1 and G2 made it much easier by having the Awakened explain the backstory and show how the Shapers have wronged them, without trying to kill you along the way. There is also a great deal of impact in playing these two games in sequence and seeing how the people in the factions changed after the Shapers retook Sucia, e.g. hearing how Dayna, an Obeyer in G1, had her entire worldview destroyed.

 

G3 has a distinct lack of that. The sufferings of the people under the Shapers (Torsten's sickness, the gatherers, the quarantine) don't come across as the Shapers' fault the same way the issues in G1 and G2 do. And the PC only meets sympathetic rebels at Icy End after they are already a rebel, which kind of defeats the purpose.

[Brocktree]

I wonder if one's opinion is effected by their experience with the prequels. Geneforge 1 and 2 portray the Shapers in a negative light. In Geneforge 1 you witness first hand examples of the Shapers callousness and irresponsibility. They just up and abandoned a whole bunch of creations who were totally dependent on them, while leaving a bunch of deadly and toxic experimental equipment lying around. In Geneforge 2 you get to witness the brutality with which the Shapers respond to the results of their carelessness, with them just killing any creation with independent thought, even the ones who just want to be treated with respect.

 

Geneforge 3 really does portray the rebel cause in a poor light. As several posters mentioned, most of the Rebel acts are pretty unsavoury (although arguably necessary, if they wish to make the most of the element of surprise), whereas the Shapers are using conventional techniques to kill the enemy. Furthermore, most of the Shapers you meet are actually pretty pleasant to deal with. The Shapers still have their problems, but these aren't drummed in as heavily as they were in GF1 and 2, perhaps because Jeff thought we'd already heard it a million times. For example, Geneforge 3 mentions that drayks are barred creations, so no-one can Shape them. However, Geneforge 1 makes it clear that the Shapers also hunted the drayks into extinction. Hell, it's mentioned multiple times in the game by the narrator *and* NPCs. Geneforge 3 hints at Shaper neglect in regards to their creations, but Geneforge 1 is an actual story that revolves around Shapers abusing and abandon their creations out of convenience, and the resulting aftermath. The response to this aftermath involves the Shapers coming back and killing the serviles who had learnt to support themselves.

 

If you've played Geneforge 2, you'd know that the creations only stand a chance against the Shapers if they hit them with everything they have got. Otherwise they'll end up like the Awakened sect. Since I've played the prequels, the actions of the Rebels become a lot more palatable. If you haven't, then I can understand why the Rebel's behaviour might seem like overkill.

[Triumph]

That's a very interesting idea, Brocktree. I actually fit your hypothesis...I'd played the demos of G1 and G2, of course, but the first full Spiderweb game I ever obtained was G3. And now I'm one of those people in this thread who says that in G3, "Both factions are bad but the Rebels come across worse than the Shapers." I don't think this proves the hypothesis, but I find it interesting that I seemingly validate it.

[Catoblepas]

Geneforge 3 was the first geneforge game I beat, so the rebels generally don't get much sympathy from me when I play the other games-first impressions and all that. Despite this, I don't think that the Rebels are necessarily depicted in a better light than the shapers in the other games. In geneforge 2 for instance, basically every faction screws you over at some point or another on a personal level, from the perspective of my character, the best path was unaligned. In Geneforge 4, you finally get to start out as a rebel, but the rebels don't exactly get off on a right foot-all but forcing you to use the geneforge at knifepoint, and neglecting to tell you about the dangers of the geneforge. I had no problem going either way (shaper or rebel) in geneforge 4 because of that incident and others, and in geneforge 5, pretty much everyone is a complete jerk, but I think that Alwan benefits fro mbeign the leasst jerky among them. Personally I find it pretty hard to find justification from the perspective of the player character to side with anyone except the Shapers in G2 and G3, and I can see plenty of reason to do so in G4 as well.

[Dikiyoba]

In Geneforge 4, you finally get to start out as a rebel, but the rebels don't exactly get off on a right foot-all but forcing you to use the geneforge at knifepoint, and neglecting to tell you about the dangers of the geneforge.

In fairness, you come to Southforge specifically to use the Geneforge (so you must have wanted and agreed to use the Geneforge before the game began) and it was an emergency situation. Given that prospectives are basically dead meat in case of an attack while lifecrafters have all sorts of abilities they can use to defend themselves and others and given that the Shapers could attack Southforge at any minute, it makes a lot of sense that Greta wants you to use the Geneforge and become a lifecrafter as soon as possible. With everyone's life (including yours) at stake, there's just no time for second thoughts.

 

Dikiyoba wishes the human side of the rebellion had been explored more thoroughly in G4. There are a few humans who tell their story, but not enough to get an idea of what the non-lifecrafter humans are fighting for.

[Halt]

Agreed with Dikiyoba... there should be sort of a... "Geneforge 4 'Part Two Human Rebellion'" or something like that, that shows more(or allows you to play) as a normal human who fights for the rebellion...

 

And like Dikiyoba said... you were specifically brought to southforge to use the geneforge... it says it in the beginning dialog doesn't it?

[Catoblepas]

Yes, but they do seem to gloss over the side effects of using the genforge rather reliably. Try asking about the owner of the artilla in the creation stables area and see the evasive answers fly. It would definately appear that unexpected mutations from geneforge use/cannister use seems to be somethign they don't really want to talk about. Plus there's the creepy way the Geneforge tender acts before and after you use the geneforge, adn the general disdain everyone around southforge treats you prior to using it. Southforge isn't exactly the friendliest place on the continent. Obviously the PC went there looking to join the rebellion, but IMO it would be hard to not have second thoughts once you start learning hints about the geneforge's side effects, and how everyone who used it is a jerk/slightly crazy.

 

As for using the geneforge being something you need to survive the shaper's attack, I disagree. There were a lot of unaugmented serviles and humans at the base who got out just fine. The context of Greta saying that you wouldn't leave alive if you didn't use it made it seem more like some sort of Mafia loyalty test rather than something you would need to do to survive the shaper attack.

 

I'd say that the Rebels came off as jerks in general in Geneforge 4, but they are miles above the Rebels of Geneforge 3 for me because I can actually play a Geneforge 4 Rebel campaign and not feel like a complete monster like in G3.

[Triumph]

The Rebels of G4 are much more nuanced than in G3 - starting early in the game (rather than waiting until the end a la Icy End in G3), you get to see distinct human (well, mostly Greta), servile, drayk, and drakon components to the rebellion, and even among those segments there are variations. Some are more sympathy-inducing than others. Up until Icy End, there was really no comparable portrayal of the rebels in G3.

 

The Shapers in G4 are similarly complex: you get characters who seem to reprehensible monsters, you get serious and honorable characters like Crowley and Alwan, and you even get the light-hearted Miranda. I thought it was a brilliant touch on Jeff's part that the first real mission the Shapers offer in G4 is the mercy-mission of helping Shaila (unlike the rebels who want her dead). There are definitely some "wow, these guys are creepy / evil" moments for the shapers (like the mission where you convince a runaway servile to go home and the shaper blandly kills him); I actually thought that in some ways shapers seemed more evil in G4 than in G3. But then there's Alwan and Miranda and Crowley and helping Shaila to convince you the whole Shaper faction isn't off the edge.

[Trenton.]

whole Shaper faction isn't off the edge.

 

Exactly this. Some good factions have their evil moments and some evil factions have their good moments. No one is completely good or evil.