On Obscenely High Shaping Skill Levels [Spoilers][G5]

[Hawat]

So in the thread "A Return to Shaping", on page 5, Brocktree did some fascinating analysis of what it would take to get a creation to 80% dodge against Astoria. He was trying to make it work with a Shock Trall, and concluded that it would require a creation with 60 dexterity, or 55 with protection and curse on the opponent. His conclusion was the highest reasonable dexterity achievable for a Shock Trall was 46. At 46 dexterity, the Trall gets hit 3.5 times as often as it would at 55 dexterity, so the plan doesn't work. This made me sad, as I so wanted an unhittable creation.

 

But who says I have to be reasonable?

 

A level 70 Eyebeast can hit 55 dexterity. Thirty five dexterity from levels, 12 from equipment, 8 from buying dexterity. Granted, I'll be spending 400 essence of one creation. But it should be able to tank pretty much anything. To shape a level 70 eyebeast, you need a total shaping level of 29 (as eyebeasts have a base level of 38 but require an ability level of 3 to shape). You can get 6 through equipment, so you'd need to raise the skill to 23 through skill points (at a cost of 154 skill points for a shaper). Realistically I wouldn't mechanics and leadership below 9 and 8 respectively, which is another 46 points. Assuming a target level of 45, that leaves just enough skill points to bump intelligence to 13 (with another +2 from charms, brining the total to 15). That would give 700 essence, which should be adequate. Five vlish and a plated artilla would fill out the roster at a modest essence cost, and should be able to keep everything cursed. They'll be at a very high level for tier 2 creations as well.

 

So is this plan viable? Were I an intelligent person, I'd have asked the veterans here that. Instead, despite not knowing what I'm doing (got the game a couple weeks ago), I decided to try it. I haven't gotten to the eyebeast yet, but the results through level 25 are interesting. I've raised mechanics to 9, leadership to 10, boosted intelligence by one, and every other skill point has gone to shaping. This has left me quite short on essence, but I've been able to clear content with a very essence modest group. As of writing, I just defeated wthe drayk guarding the passage stone in West Shadow Road with a party of me, one ur-glaahk (dexterity boosted by 8), 2 vlish and a plated artilla. A similar group (ur-glaahk without boosted dexterity, both it and its successor were level 51) cleared western okanavo and the Alpha camp in southwest okanavo. Two glaahks took out the podlings guarding the create glaahk canister in Gorash Kel. Before that, one glaahk, 3 vlish and my plated artilla cleared most of the Podling Crossroads and picked up the Girdle of Genius (sorely needed) from the Podling Queen. No consumables were needed.

 

I wasn't confident any of that was going to work (and in honesty, it hasn't been quite as easy as it was in my all-fire creation or sane all magic creation playthroughs, where I started pumping intelligence after getting the creation skill to a reasonable [as opposed to this plan's unreasonable] level). However, Glaahks are an almost perfect counter to podlings, as they strongly resist podlings' primary attacks and podlings have no resistance to theirs. That made it easy to get the girdle of genius and the canister needed to create Ur-Glaahks (which is otherwise difficult to access at lower levels without Burning Thads, but if you've pumped battle shaping it makes no sense to go for Ur-Glaahks). Really high level Ur-Glaahks with boosted dexterity can tank a whole lot, as very few level appropriate enemies have hit rates higher than 20% against them (particularly when cursed). I've got to say, it's a lot of fun. It feels like I'm triumphing over vastly superior opponents. Soon I'll have enough essence to trade my Ur-Glaahk in for a Gazer, and I'm guessing that will be the point things start rolling down hill. Hopefully.

 

So, Spiderweb veterans who actually know what you're doing: Am I nuts? Or could this work?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Firstly you don't get the eyebeast until the last area of the game so it's fairly useless.

Secondly concentrating only on magic shaping will make the magic resistant foes a real pain, but I still guess it can work, especially with the physical attack of highly leveled up Vlishes , Artillas and wingbolts, but I think it will still be a real pain and not really worth it.

[Lilith]

Firstly you don't get the eyebeast until the last area of the game so it's fairly useless.

 

Yeah, this is a pretty big problem with your plan: there are only three levels of Create Gazer available in the game, and the third level is in the final battle of the non-Ghaldring paths, from which there is no return once you enter. And fighting Astoria is only possible on the Ghaldring path. So using an eyebeast against Astoria is never actually going to be possible.

[Trenton.]

Unless you go ahead and attack her after getting the canister instead of Ghaldring.

[Randomizer]

Unless you go ahead and attack her after getting the canister instead of Ghaldring.

That won't work because the game has an auto kill node if you attack Astoria or the other allies at that point,

[Trenton.]

Huh. Well you learn something new everyday.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

or just enter one of those codes to give you max gazer level.

[Lilith]

or just enter one of those codes to give you max gazer level.

 

you know if you're going to cheat you might as well go the whole hog and give yourself 30 free levels of Intelligence and Magic Shaping. you don't exactly prove anything by doing that though

[Brocktree]

The only thing that might work is to avoid leveling as much as possible until you get to the Storm Plains, and then purchase two levels of War Trall ASAP. It would be difficult to get to the point, but you can skip most of the difficult battles with adequate leadership/mechanics. Then you could retroactively clear up the previous two provinces and gain a hefty number of level ups for the trall/s (not sure if you'd have enough essence for more than one trall). That seems like a lot of pain for what will probably be a moderate benefit, at best.

 

I don't really like Ur-Glaahks. They are hideously overpriced, have a stun attack that rarely works, have virtually no physical resistance, and no ranged attack. Still, I can't argue with success.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Does the stun attack's potency scale up with the level/stats of creation, cos then It might actually be worth it.

you know if you're going to cheat you might as well go the whole hog and give yourself 30 free levels of Intelligence and Magic Shaping. you don't exactly prove anything by doing that though

You do prove that you can cheat.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

Temparant cheating is an art.

[Sudanna]

you know if you're going to cheat you might as well go the whole hog and give yourself 30 free levels of Intelligence and Magic Shaping. you don't exactly prove anything by doing that though

 

Eh, you can cheat to correct a perceived imbalance in the game or some little bit of design that just rankles you and still leave it perfectly challenging.

[BMA]

Also, you can cheat for convenience and still look people in the eye. When you're hurt, it's a good shortcut to just cheat yourself to complete health instead of going to the Endzone + selecting a friendly town + going to said town + coming back.

[Brocktree]

Yeah, I used the exitzone cheat regularly for convenience. But when you put it like that, perhaps I should have just used the heal/recharge cheat.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Getting the max. level for a Gazer doesn't fall in either category.

[Hawat]

Thank you all very much for the insights. Having advanced a bit further, I'm starting to think this probably isn't a particularly good method (though if DeliciousVlish can get his all-Vlish method to work, almost anything is possible). The lack of essence is pretty punishing. I'm currently level 35, and I've got a level 61 Gazer, five Vlish (levels 42 and 43) and a Plated Artilla (level 43). The Gazer in Lerman's pass appears to be impractical (probably could win if I burned through consumables, but that's not really winning IMHO), whereas it wasn't a problem with my fire shaping attempt or my intelligence focused all magic shaping try. Travald's Advisor was an absolute pain in the neck (the lack of variance in damage type really hurts there). The problem is that the aggregate damage output is just too low - probably half what I was getting from my Fire creations (Drayk's rock). Even though the Gazer is a supremely durable tank, it isn't always possible to get the enemy to focus on it. Any scenario with spawning enemies is also problematic.

 

On the other hand, for most of the game it does work very well. Really high level Vlish seem versatile, durable and very essence efficient. The plated artilla is quite handy for spreading acid about. The Gazer isn't immortal, and is ineffective offensively against some opponents, but it really can take a tremendous beating and not drop below 600 health or so. Any fight where all, or nearly all, incoming attacks are borne by the Gazer has been pretty easy.

 

On the whole, it basically makes your second tier creations feel like third tier creations, both as to essence cost and efficacy. This makes sense I suppose, because the shaping skill is 11 points higher than it is generally raised to, whereas the essence pool is drastically lower as this shaper is a bit of an idiot (he's only increased intelligence twice). Right now I've got my group as described above and just enough essence left to buff up (regeneration aura, blessing, protection, haste) and the switch to the +4 creation dex/strength belt from the girdle of genius.

 

I didn't know that it was impossible to retreat from inner Gazaki-Us, so that does kill my initial plan (which was basically to rush to that point, then go back out and finish the rest of the game with my uber-EyeBeast).

 

Brocktree, I appreciate hearing your thoughts, as I basically plagiarized your idea on this. I think that for War Trolls, what would be most relevant is the point at which you could get +6 to shaping skills from equipment. Since you can stealth your way through to the tradeskill components for the Girdle of Victory quite early (though at the cost of a few living tools and forgoing some loot in Travald's Crypt), the limiter is probably at what point you can beat the drayk for the Black Pearl Talisman. Battle creations don't tend to have much cold resistance so far as I know, but that may not be as much of a problem as I'm assuming it is (I've got pretty limited experience with the Battle tree, as I was a bit frightened of being stuck with only one damage type). If you were willing to push it, you could presumably get level 61 War Tralls with a moderate effort. They still won't dodge all that much though against high level opponents (as you figured out). It may well be a viable approach though.

 

Glaahks are indeed unimpressive, but in this specific approach they have a role. So far as I can tell, a creations dodge chance is exclusively tied to their dexterity, which is determined by their level. Ur-Glaahks have a base level of 30, and are by far the cheapest creation with such a high base level. That in turn makes it easy to pump their dexterity by 8 for a manageable cost, giving an excellent evade tank. I think with a slightly more balanced skill point allocation (say 4 less shaping, 5-6 more intelligence) a couple of Ur-Glaahks would make excellent tanks right down through end-game.

 

One final question: In what situations does it make sense to go for Wingbolts instead of Gazers? The Gazers just seem better in nearly every scenario, and have only a modestly higher essence cost.

[Lilith]

One final question: In what situations does it make sense to go for Wingbolts instead of Gazers? The Gazers just seem better in nearly every scenario, and have only a modestly higher essence cost.

 

Yeah, wingbolts got nerfed a whole lot compared to G4. They do still have excellent energy resistance, though, and in terms of offensive power they're nearly as good as Gazers. Plus, you get access to them a little earlier.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Yeah, wingbolts got nerfed a whole lot compared to G4. They do still have excellent energy resistance, though, and in terms of offensive power they're nearly as good as Gazers. Plus, you get access to them a little earlier.

Their physical attack is also good against magic resistant foes compared to gazers.

[Brocktree]

The problem is that the aggregate damage output is just too low - probably half what I was getting from my Fire creations (Drayk's rock). Even though the Gazer is a supremely durable tank, it isn't always possible to get the enemy to focus on it. Any scenario with spawning enemies is also problematic.

 

This isn't really a surprise. Toting around 4 creations is going to give you a lower damage output that having 8 creations, for obvious reasons. In fact, now that I think about it, it is self-defeating to invest heavily in shaping skills, and then only focus your efforts on one or two powerful creations. Shaping represents the best form of damage output due to high leverage.

 

For example, increasing battle magic or melee weapons by 1 level will increase damage output for *one* character. However, increasing creation strength by one point can potentially increase the damage of *eight* characters. Seems obvious, but this explains why melee and battle magic heavy builds have always paled in comparison to shaping heavy builds. And no, I don't care what anyone says, a creation heavy Shaper steamrolls a Guardian with high parry in GF2 any day.

 

This also makes the Projection Belt one of the most overpowered items in the Geneforge series. +4 to creation strength is *ridiculous*. Assuming you have 6 war tralls with a multiplier of 10 (average damage of 5.5), that equates to an a damage increase of *132* per round. If you have 6 shocks tralls, that doubles to 264. Not only that, each creation gains 4 to endurance (just a perk, since tralls are already tanks) and dexterity. Even better, this bonus is applied to all 3 types of creations, so if you need a charged thahd for magic immunity, or a wingbolt to take out unbound, they also gain the damage bonus.

 

Brocktree, I appreciate hearing your thoughts, as I basically plagiarized your idea on this. I think that for War Trolls, what would be most relevant is the point at which you could get +6 to shaping skills from equipment.

 

After working through it, I can say my idea would fail simply because you wouldn't have enough essence to create a war trall if you held off leveling until you obtained the skill.

 

Glaahks are indeed unimpressive, but in this specific approach they have a role. So far as I can tell, a creations dodge chance is exclusively tied to their dexterity, which is determined by their level. Ur-Glaahks have a base level of 30, and are by far the cheapest creation with such a high base level. That in turn makes it easy to pump their dexterity by 8 for a manageable cost, giving an excellent evade tank. I think with a slightly more balanced skill point allocation (say 4 less shaping, 5-6 more intelligence) a couple of Ur-Glaahks would make excellent tanks right down through end-game.

 

Yes, Ur-Glaahks have a relatively low essence to base level ratio.

[Randomizer]

Having more creations compared to a few powerful ones usually works for several reasons:

 

1) Ability to split attacks among more targets to kill more per round or at least keep them engaged.

 

2) Usually more aggregate damage per round as long as the targets don't resist that attack type.

 

3) Sometimes lower essence cost, but that depends on what you are shaping.

 

4) Ability to block a path or surround a target so it can't move.