The old Avernum Stat System is Better

[Death Knight]

I find that there are mixed feelings that I have for this game. A lot of me likes it more than the original Avernum 1 with the major thing I like about the original being the stat choices and freedom surrounding it. However the graphics and general interface of the new game is more my style which is why I like the newer one more.

 

I played Avernum 1 a little and the only gripe I have which is the graphics are hard to look at for long. Ive never played Exile 1 or 2 and 3 for that aspect. Other than that, I feel that if the original Avernum 1/Exile 1 had the graphics of this remake with stat system of old, it would be the best game series jeff made.

 

I like this game quite a bit but mostly I feel that the stat system just doesnt offer as much freedom as the old system. However, I think the reason it works for Avadon is because Avadon isnt a remake. Avadon is its own game and therefore there is more freedom in that than this remake.

 

Because of this, I have mixed feelings about possible future remakes in Geneforge and other series.

[The Reverend]

The stat system is structured differently in this game, but most of the same stats are present. It's actually easier to unlock some stats here than it was in the previous games because you don't have the same high prerequisites for the formerly hidden stats. In many ways this actually limited your freedom, because you were locked into grabbing large amounts of various prerequisite stats if you wanted to unlock the cool hidden stats.

 

I think they only time when you have less freedom is at the very beginning - in the original Avernums you could allocate a number of skill points at the beginning, whereas as in A:EFTP you only get a few points at the beginning. But later in the game, though, you get to upgrade one stat and two skills every level. This was rare in the original Avernums due to the increasing cost of skills as you leveled them up.

[RaustBlackDragon]

I liked the old stat system too actually, particularly the increasing costs, which meant that pure specialization wasn't abused like crazy, and made multi-builds more viable. Granted, as I've demonstrated in my sig, they're STILL viable, but...

[Randomizer]

The high cost to unlock hidden skills and/or raise existing skills to higher levels made the old Avernum games harder. You had to plan in advance what you wanted to do to have them at the end of the game. If you didn't know how to unlock the hidden skills you might never get even parry or blademaster.

[The Reverend]

If you didn't know how to unlock the hidden skills you might never get even parry or blademaster.

This effectively means that you have to check Strategy Central before you start your game, and plan your build accordingly, if you want to be assured of getting these types of skills.

 

I would say that there are a limited number of good builds in either system. The old system might have made some mixed-class characters more viable (in particular the mage-priest - I'd often go with 2 fighters and 2 mage-priests where one of the mage-priests was slightly more focused on mage and the other slightly more on priest), but it also made it easier to end up with a build that just wasn't viable at all.

[Death Knight]

I liked the old stat system too actually, particularly the increasing costs, which meant that pure specialization wasn't abused like crazy, and made multi-builds more viable. Granted, as I've demonstrated in my sig, they're STILL viable, but...

 

I found that I like the old way better because it was much easier to put a large number of points instead of a small number at the beginning. But thats not really it-The real reason is archetypes are much easier to find for character classes. Take avernum 5 for example, you want to make a magekiller type fighter, good go do that from beginning, with regular strength and a litte endurance and dexterity/weapon skills, give that fighter the trait strong will. Presto, you just started the game and already are playing that character.

 

You can still do that with the new system but its much harder. Another major problem with the new system is that there are maximum values with which you can place points in. It would be really epic If I could max out just 4 skills to the max. Melee, Quick action, Hardiness, and Blademaster, thats it. Instead you can only place 10 points in them. The old system I could take luck and other skills to high lvls and even though it might not be powerful, its still a heck of a lot of fun.

[Jerakeen]

 

This effectively means that you have to check Strategy Central before you start your game, and plan your build accordingly, if you want to be assured of getting these types of skills.

 

I would say that there are a limited number of good builds in either system. The old system might have made some mixed-class characters more viable (in particular the mage-priest - I'd often go with 2 fighters and 2 mage-priests where one of the mage-priests was slightly more focused on mage and the other slightly more on priest), but it also made it easier to end up with a build that just wasn't viable at all.

 

This is exactly right, and it's the main reason Jeff changed the skill system. If the player has to make irrevocable and consequential character building decisions before even playing a single round, the odds are pretty good that they'll make mistakes. Not everyone has the patience to start over when they realize that their builds are all wrong. This leads to complaints and rage quitting.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

This is exactly right, and it's the main reason Jeff changed the skill system. If the player has to make irrevocable and consequential character building decisions before even playing a single round, the odds are pretty good that they'll make mistakes. Not everyone has the patience to start over when they realize that their builds are all wrong. This leads to complaints and rage quitting.

Well to be fair you could always try the preset classes, if you know nothing about a game and are still hellbent on making a custom class then you should be prepare for the eventuality of it going wrong.

[The Reverend]

Well to be fair you could always try the preset classes, if you know nothing about a game and are still hellbent on making a custom class then you should be prepare for the eventuality of it going wrong.

This does help you prevent starting with unviable characters, but it doesn't really solve the problem of not knowing what the prereqs are for the cool hidden skills.

 

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy the old Avernums (and their skill system) as well as A:EFTP. I'm just trying to point out that there are some real benefits to the new system. Both are fun though, IMHO.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

This does help you prevent starting with unviable characters, but it doesn't really solve the problem of not knowing what the prereqs are for the cool hidden skills.

You know they are supposed to be hidden, In my first A5 playthrough I completed the game without unlocking any of them except mag. efficiency and still completed the game, role-playing, min-maxing, hidden skills these are I think something you should concentrate on only once you have played the game at least once, for the first time just concentrate on enjoying the story.

[Jerakeen]

 

You know they are supposed to be hidden, In my first A5 playthrough I completed the game without unlocking any of them except mag. efficiency and still completed the game, role-playing, min-maxing, hidden skills these are I think something you should concentrate on only once you have played the game at least once, for the first time just concentrate on enjoying the story.

 

But you have to understand that many players (possibly most, though obviously I can't prove that) only play the game once. People who post on these boards represent only a portion of Spiderweb customers, especially for the most recent games.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

When I'm playing a game with a lot of hidden content, I usually use walkthroughs on the Internet. Sometimes I might like playing a game more than once, but never consecutively, and certainly not dozens of times just to experiment, so I try to get the full experience the first time. I prefer to have as little content well-hidden as possible.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

But you have to understand that many players (possibly most, though obviously I can't prove that) only play the game once. People who post on these boards represent only a portion of Spiderweb customers, especially for the most recent games.

That's probably true, but what I am saying is that in your first playthrough just enjoy the game ,never mind that it might be your last, why worry about the little details, and if you do want to worry about them then well play the game again.

Also if you really want the total experience then you can always visit the internet for a little help.

[Jerakeen]

That's probably true, but what I am saying is that in your first playthrough just enjoy the game ,never mind that it might be your last, why worry about the little details, and if you do want to worry about them then well play the game again.

Also if you really want the total experience then you can always visit the internet for a little help.

 

And that's fine, but what about the people who are finding it impossible to progress because they had no in-game way to know how to build their characters properly? They are not enjoying the experience.

 

Don't get me wrong - I loved the old system, tinkering with stats, reading up on all the exploits. But I couldn't begin to count how many times I restarted games. Players should not be required to consult outside sources of information, or repeatedly start over, in order to beat the game. So I totally understand the business decision to change it, and I like the new system too.

[The Reverend]

And that's fine, but what about the people who are finding it impossible to progress because they had no in-game way to know how to build their characters properly? They are not enjoying the experience.

 

Don't get me wrong - I loved the old system, tinkering with stats, reading up on all the exploits. But I couldn't begin to count how many times I restarted games. Players should not be required to consult outside sources of information, or repeatedly start over, in order to beat the game. So I totally understand the business decision to change it, and I like the new system too.

 

This, exactly.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

And that's fine, but what about the people who are finding it impossible to progress because they had no in-game way to know how to build their characters properly? They are not enjoying the experience.

Please try to link post #8 and post #14.

[Lilith]

Most of the preset classes are actually quite badly designed, though, so advising people to use those if they don't know what they're doing isn't very good advice.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Yes but they are viable, and if people are playing without any help/advice/experience then it's better to use them rather than make a custom party and get stuck.

[Jerakeen]

What Lilith said. Yes, using presets lets you start with a poor to mediocre build as opposed to a disastrous one. We know that the default classes are playable - we know it because experienced players have done it as an experiment and reported the result.

 

The point is that even starting with the presets does not necessarily mean that a player will not end up with a useless party. Obviously you can't guarantee everyone a joyous gaming experience. But the more people who do enjoy it, the more repeat customers you'll get, and that's the bottom line.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

The point is that even starting with the presets does not necessarily mean that a player will not end up with a useless party.

Isn't that concept equally valid in the stat system of A:eftp? Even if you start from a custom party the potential to screw up is limitless, how is the stat system of previous trilogy any worse in that regard?

Also these games aren't that hard on the lower difficulties I will say even if you have allocated a few useless points here and there the default builds are still good enough to carry the day.

(and I just noticed you are not a cartographer any longer, the new custom title is coooooooool.)

[Jerakeen]

I wouldn't say limitless; the biggest mistake you're likely to make is trying to go multi-classed. It wouldn't take long to realize what a bad idea that is.

 

How is it different? Well, for one thing, the new system does not require you to allocate precious skill points in counterintuitive and/or utterly wasteful places in order to unlock the better skills. Like Melee and Pole weapons to get Blademaster. Or Intelligence for a warrior to get Anatomy. Yes, it's quite possible to finish the games without these (I've done it). And yes, all of these things add interest and replay value for a certain subset of players. And after all, Jeff did pretty well with it for a long time. I'm not here to argue about which system is better - each has its points. I was just trying to shed some light on the reasons.

[The Reverend]

I wouldn't say limitless; the biggest mistake you're likely to make is trying to go multi-classed. It wouldn't take long to realize what a bad idea that is.

RaustBlackDragon showed that it is possible to go multi-classed and beat the game, even on torment - you just have to be careful about how you allocate points and know what you're doing. The new system in some ways actually makes it easier to fine tune your build as you learn, because you don't have to allocate such a large portion of your skill points at the beginning of the game (IIRC, in the old games you got 60 points at the beginning and then 5 points each level).

 

Edit: To be clear - I'm not saying the new system makes multi-class builds easier. The opposite is probably true. Just that the new system makes it easier to fine tune whatever build you do choose because of the different timings of when points are distributed.

[Acky]

Personally, I've come to greatly prefer the new stat system of the last two games over the previous skill-point based builds. Being someone who never really plays RPGs for the builds and mechanics, I appreciate Jeff making it easier for folks like me to not mess up their character. Although the I personally read the Strategy guides for when new games come out, I don't really think its fair to assume that people are going to when first encountering a SW game.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I agree, Ackrovan. I prefer games where the mechanics are a means to an end, rather than the end itself. Such min-maxing, mechanics-based games are fine for things like simple roguelikes, since the main point of a roguelike is seeing how long you can make your build survive, but in a game where the primary draw is the story and the gameplay, forcing me to worry about crunching numbers just serves as a frustrating distraction, in my opinion.

 

Granted, I haven't actually played Avadon or A:EftP, but if the stat system is really that much simpler, I might give them a shot someday, if I ever have spending money.

[Death Knight]

Well not to change topics but considering the way you can mess up your character in the old system. I believe that Avadon is almost sort of like the old system in that regard. I noticed this when playing the game a 3rd time, that I usually always respecialize (retrain) my character when i reach the Zhossa Mindtaker battle. Maybe its just me, but it seems like if you want to enjoy the game without having to get too frustrated, utility skills are the way to go for the right skill column. My blademaster used the skills that gave regeneration to survive, my shadowwalker used regeneration in focus on the right column, and my shaman used flat out hardiness and healing skills in the right column.

 

What I can gather from this, is that the right column is very needed almost solely for archer characters, unless you are a sorceress and shaman spellcaster. That makes Avadon have more close calls with specializing than you may think.

[Steppenfox]

It is a willful choice to appeal more to the casual gamer. Personally, I find the new level up system to be boring. There just aren't any choices or trade-offs. Picking the expensive but good skill vs the cheap but less good skill was fun. The planning was fun. The optimization was fun. Now... I don't know.

 

The thing is... I don't think that the cult audience surrounding Spiderweb games is really a casual gaming audience. We prefer the "old school" rpg, and that is why we are here instead of playing something like Fable. If the focus shifts away from its niche, the games start to compete with mainstream games, and that is not a winning battle. I understand that a niche is not necessarily where a game wants to be, but I am here for the niche. I wish that Spiderweb RPGs would stick to their roots.

[Death Knight]

It is a willful choice to appeal more to the casual gamer. Personally, I find the new level up system to be boring. There just aren't any choices or trade-offs. Picking the expensive but good skill vs the cheap but less good skill was fun. The planning was fun. The optimization was fun. Now... I don't know.

 

The thing is... I don't think that the cult audience surrounding Spiderweb games is really a casual gaming audience. We prefer the "old school" rpg, and that is why we are here instead of playing something like Fable. If the focus shifts away from its niche, the games start to compete with mainstream games, and that is not a winning battle. I understand that a niche is not necessarily where a game wants to be, but I am here for the niche. I wish that Spiderweb RPGs would stick to their roots.

 

I totally agree with you on a lot of points. The old system was fun. The thing is though, the feel to the game is still very much present with builds, just in a different way. In the old game you could focus on a select group of skills and pump them up and thats your class. You could put almost all your points into strength and melee weapons, (not much in endurance) and that would be an offensive fighter. In the new system, its all done on attributes per lvl. If you want to make that offensive fighter now, you put strength every lvl except every 6th which goes to endurance. If you want to make a defensive, strength every lvl except every 4th in endurance. The stat building is still there like old, just different.

 

Thats just avernum. If you really think of it, Avadon is more like old school stat system than you think. You can't just start the game with putting points into anything, you have to specialize. I think the reason jeff made the new system was because it appeals to most players on normal and will offer a challenge to those hardcore on hard difficulty and up.

 

I never had too much trouble with Avadon once I found out the system. I spoke with many people who haven't played many of jeff's games who said they loved the game because it was difficult on regular difficulty.

 

In the end, both systems have their pluses.