Hydrogen Peroxide

[Upon Mars.]

Hi, I playing Avernum and paid special attention to how plants survived in the sunless caves. I then decided to look up lifeforms which could be produce O2 without sunlight and I found that hydrogen peroxyde could be used to create oxygen, water and energy without he need of sunlight. My question is, is there places underground were hydrogen peroxide naturally occurs like the waters at Lourdes and how does occur naturally?

[Lilith]

There aren't actually any true plants in the caves: it's mentioned in a few places that all of the "trees" are just big fungi. As for what all those fungi are feeding on, your guess is as good as mine.

[Jerakeen]

Upon Mars might be asking how oxygen is produced in the caves. Which is kind of a good question. Certainly some air would seep down from the surface, but that's an awful lot of people and creatures breathing, in the absence of photosynthesis.

[Upon Mars.]

According to what I read of avernum, the trees feed off the heat and light from volcanoes and variety of mushrooms which thrive on decaying matter and the faeces of bats. The problem is I don't think that it's plausible for trees or let alone specially modified fungi to thrive on hydrogen sulphide and methane or CO2 and light from mushrooms and as abundant as depicted in A1, A2 &A3 all together. I believe that waters filled with Hydrogen peroxide may be a solution to this problem. Also it might explain why some of the water sources in avernum are beneficent, and why mushrooms grown in avernum can cure infections and bugs.

[Dikiyoba]

Presumably, the algae in the glowing lichen are doing most of the oxygen production.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Upon Mars.]

Perhaps, but considering the near total absence of light, how do explain that they may produce enough energy to be viable? It would mean that the mushrooms would produce light nearly as strong as light bulbs, but I doubt that

[RaustBlackDragon]

Sorry to be a total cop-out, but the various fungi in Avernum are clearly established as magically engineered by some of the greatest magical minds ever, and it is mentioned repeatedly that survival would be impossible without the fungal creations of the tower of Magi, so I'm guessing they were made to feed off of some plentiful energy source that is otherwise useless to other living things. Though the question still remains of what exactly that would be, it wouldn't have to specifically generate oxygen through chemical means

 

Again, sorry for bringing up the "It's magic" excuse, but as long as magic is consistent and has rules, I think it's fun to examine it as science

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Upon Mars.

Perhaps, but considering the near total absence of light, how do explain that they may produce enough energy to be viable? It would mean that the mushrooms would produce light nearly as strong as light bulbs, but I doubt that

The light from the glowing lichen is apparently strong enough that people can go about their business, including reading. Visibility isn't substantially impaired. I'd say it's probably as dim as very early evening, and the plants only need a little magical boost to thrive.

—Alorael, who doesn't remember seeing that cavewood is all fungi. He thought one of the little surprises of the vahnatai is that they use giant mushrooms instead of wood.

[Upon Mars.]

Agreed then. In any case could a ecosystem based on the consumption of hydrogen peroxide, without any source of outside light or air be self sufficient enough to create enough oxygen and food for such an abundance of life as depicted in avernum? And would it plausible?

[Trenton.]

IT'S MAGIC. They use MAGIC. They are magic fungi. Science is a big no no in magic using games.

[keira]

Originally Posted By: TrEnToN.

Science is a big no no in magic

I would go so far as to venture that magic and science can coexist quite nicely.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Upon Mars.

Agreed then. In any case could a ecosystem based on the consumption of hydrogen peroxide, without any source of outside light or air be self sufficient enough to create enough oxygen and food for such an abundance of life as depicted in avernum? And would it plausible?

Hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable: it breaks down into water and oxygen on its own at room temperature. You'd need some source that's continually producing it.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable: it breaks down into water and oxygen on its own at room temperature. You'd need some source that's continually producing it.

Magic!

—Alorael, who believes Light (and Long Light) have a longer history of being low-level spells than Summon Hydrogen Peroxide.

[Student of Trinity]

Any sufficiently detailed magic is indistinguishable from technology.

[Upon Mars.]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Any sufficiently detailed magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Wasn't that a quote from Ekralc Selrahc Ruhtra's three laws?

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable: it breaks down into water and oxygen on its own at room temperature. You'd need some source that's continually producing it.

What for example? Aside from magic.

Also "Pure hydrogen peroxide was long believed to be unstable. This was because of failed attempts to separate the hydrogen peroxide from the water, which is present during synthesis. However, this instability was due to traces of impurities (transition metals salts) that catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide. One hundred percent pure hydrogen peroxide was first obtained through vacuum distillation by Richard Wolffenstein in 1894." -wikipedia, hydrogen peroxide.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Upon Mars.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable: it breaks down into water and oxygen on its own at room temperature. You'd need some source that's continually producing it.

What for example? Aside from magic.

Also "Pure hydrogen peroxide was long believed to be unstable. This was because of failed attempts to separate the hydrogen peroxide from the water, which is present during synthesis. However, this instability was due to traces of impurities (transition metals salts) that catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide. One hundred percent pure hydrogen peroxide was first obtained through vacuum distillation by Richard Wolffenstein in 1894." -wikipedia, hydrogen peroxide.

It was considered unstable because nobody could isolate pure hydrogen hydroxide peroxide without it decomposing into water and oxygen (The use of "unstable" in that paragraph is somewhat confusing). We can now produce pure hydrogen peroxide, but as Lilith says, it will spontaneously decompose at room temperature. A household solution of hydrogen peroxide is generally stored in a plastic brown bottle to prevent the solution from absorbing light and consequentially decomposing. It can also be refrigerated to slow down the rate of decomposition.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

It was considered unstable because nobody could isolate pure hydrogen hydroxide without it decomposing into water and oxygen

hydrogen hydroxide is very easy to get. it's hydrogen peroxide that's hard.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

It was considered unstable because nobody could isolate pure hydrogen hydroxide without it decomposing into water and oxygen

hydrogen hydroxide is very easy to get. it's hydrogen peroxide that's hard.

Oh dear, I have a remarkable ability not to notice glaring typos.

(This is also why I usually proofread my essays by reading them backwards)

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Any sufficiently detailed magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Drat! You beat me to it.

On another note, it is generally cooler in Avernum than on the surface. This would have the effect of stabilizing the compound, in much the same way that carbonic acid does in soda water. In general, the cooler the solution, the greater the ability of water to absorb and combine with a gas such as O2 or CO2.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

On another note, it is generally cooler in Avernum than on the surface

Are you sure? Dikiyoba recalls it being generally hotter in Avernum because of all the lava, steam vents, demons, and comfortably warm sliths.

[Erebus the Black]

A point for thought is Chitrachs, these existed in the underworld before there were magic mushrooms, which means either oxygen is not produced magically or bugs in Exile do not breath oxygen. (I'm also assuming the other creatures either have their own magic (sliths, vahnati, gremlins, dragons) or were sent down by the empire (giants, nephils, rats, maybe bats and lizards).

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, given the vahnatai presence and presumed need for oxygen, this is something that must have been solved a very long time ago. There are also chitrachs, giant lizards, cave bats (I assume they're native), sliths, hydras, and so on. I can only conclude that either there has always been air in the caves for one reason or another, and it hasn't been ruined by geothermal activity, or it was made by the vahnatai.

 

Specifically, they set up the subterranean atmosphere before they made everything else. Vahnatai creationism!

 

—Alorael, who would rather just assume that there's some oxygen-based ecosystem in the caves. Photosynthetic bacteria around lava pools? Or magic crystals.

[Cairo Jim]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

On another note, it is generally cooler in Avernum than on the surface

Are you sure? Dikiyoba recalls it being generally hotter in Avernum because of all the lava, steam vents, demons, and comfortably warm sliths.

Although I agree with that for the most part, there are a few cold spots. In A3 I remember there were some sliths that couldn't work because it was to cold. I think I may have heard that the rivers can be a bit chilly.

[Harehunter]

There are hot spots in Avernum due to volcanic action here and there. It is here where the colder water containing a high concentration of dissolved O2, in the form of H2O2, would boil off breaking down the H2O2 into steam H2O and O2. Also, the GIFTS know of otherwise unknown passages back to the surface through which there could be some transference of O2.

[Upon Mars.]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

There are hot spots in Avernum due to volcanic action here and there. It is here where the colder water containing a high concentration of dissolved O2, in the form of H2O2, would boil off breaking down the H2O2 into steam H2O and O2. Also, the GIFTS know of otherwise unknown passages back to the surface through which there could be some transference of O2.

That could be plausible, but... it doesn't create enough O2 for every one. especially if you are munching on plant matter down there.

There's a an easier solution. No photosynthesis.

I found out that a whole ecology based on methane was more than plausible.

Methane and certain gases produced by the volcanoes can be used by certain micro-organisms without even the use of light to produce large quantities of O2 and water.

Easy to obtain, abundant, economic source of power which if converted can produce slower rates of O2 production than that of real plants, but it doesn't stop at night and it sticks to the description of Avernum, that is filled with volcanoes, lava, waters, poisonous marshes, hot pools, vents, geysers... and moving vegetation which began locomotion in order to find other sources of methane, when hot spots vanished in one place.

[Harehunter]

Valid theorem, but how do you explain that humans and nephil, surface dwellers requiring an O2/CO2 cycle can survive in a CH4 environment, or that sliths from this CH4 environment could survive in the O2/CO2 environment of the surface?

[Upon Mars.]

I don't I'd expect them to live as far away from methane sources as possible, save, perhaps for the waters of Avernum.

As for the Slith, I don't know. Perhaps they have a higher tolerance to CH4.

[Erebus the Black]

Yeah CH4 + 2O2 + Heat ==> BOOM + CO2 + 2H2O

[Upon Mars.]

So that's why slith are so hardy...

[keira]

Originally Posted By: אבדן

Yeah CH4 + 2O2 + Heat ==> BOOM + CO2 + 2H2O

Took me a minute to realize BOOM wasn't some sort of boron-oxygen thing.

That would probably require a lot more heat.

[Erebus the Black]

On second thought, because of the extreme heat near the caldera where the microbes are supposed to be and the low Oxygen concentration, this is more likely:

2CH4 + 3O2 + Heat ==> BOOM + 2CO + 4H2O

Making it very dangerous to live (and breath) near the calderas

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: אבדן

Yeah CH4 + 2O2 + Heat ==> BOOM + CO2 + 2H2O

Not as big a BOOM as NH4NO3. (Sorry, from my training as a combat engineer, I acquired a fascination with things that go BOOM.) And your stoichiometry is perfect.

But here we go again introducing O2 into the system. There is a reason that the chemical reaction of combustion or rusting metal is called 'oxidation', even if the oxidation agent is a halide.