The Ranking strikes odd.

[AethirWeb]

When I look at Avadon's ranking, it seems fairly simple...

Hands - Warriorq, Mages, Archers, etc. Hands are the brute force of the Forces mostly at the front line fighting. Hands are basically soldiers of the pact.

 

Eyes - Eyes are spies, I think mostly Shadoewalkers? they basically go around collecting info about rebellions and threats to the pact. Eyes are the scouts and spies of the pact.

 

Hearts - Hearts give advice and do the paperwork in Avadon, They are side by the Keeper and are basically Advisors to him/her

 

Keeper - The Keeper is the leader, I am the current keeper (Hehe, I'm in charge now suckers!) I know this would be most prestigious since it's like the leader, king, or lord rank.

 

Here's what strikes me odd, How come it seems Hearts are the highest ranked, and Eyes are in the middle. I see sometimes Eyes and Hearts get stuff we don't get, and we can't take out possible Spelllbook goodies in the library, but Hearts (And Nathalie) can. Also in the medals Hearts are the highest, I'm not sure about eyes, but Hearts to me is illogical to be the highest ranked as it's more ranked by power in battle in my opinion. Why the hearts the highest when Miranda never flung her wand once.

[Lilith]

hands are basically just dudes who go around fixing problems, mostly with violence. they don't necessarily get told why they're doing what they're doing or anything like that

 

eyes work with secret information as part of their core job so they have to have a little more trust placed in them, thus they're higher-ranking

 

hearts have to be the most trusted because they need the greatest access to secret information in order to give useful advice about the politics of the Pact; thus they are the highest rank

[AethirWeb]

Oh...well I like to mindlessly kill, so when i decide not to pull Redbeard's beard I'll remain a mindless cannibalistic killer.

[Alorael at Large]

The same hierarchy exists in real life. The Hands are the technicians who fix the problems. They're skilled, but not necessarily knowledgeable. This is part of the problem with Avadon: Hands are sent in to fix problems without having the ability to correctly diagnose what's wrong and come up with an optimal solution. They just go in swinging.

 

Eyes are the management. They figure out where things need to be done and what, broadly, needs doing. They're the brains, and the Hands are the tools that do what the Eyes tell them.

 

The Hearts are the senior management, or board members, or directors. They're not so concerned with the situation in any one place. Instead, they have the big picture. Their job is to keep track of trends, stay on top of trouble before it happens, send out the Hands and Eyes to where they'll do the most good, and generally run Avadon.

 

The same hierarchy exists in real life. Do well at your job and you'll be promoted to managing people who do what you did. Do well there and you'll be managing the managers.

 

—Alorael, who actually thinks Avadon's problems could be substantially reduced by running it with more discipline and oversight. If Eyes were sent with the Hands, maybe things wouldn't get so, pardon, out of hand. And if Hands were trained to be a little less heavy-handed in the first place they wouldn't have to spend so much time putting down unrest.

[Skwish-E]

It is also the same ranking for the body.

 

While a Hand can act without Eyes, It is not generally thought to be as effective or efficient.

 

An Eye can still see and do it's job just fine without a Hand.

 

If there is no functioning Heart, the hands and eyes die.

[Superba]

Maybe the Eyes are not exactly the Management, in the way it's not them but the Hearts which tell the Hands where to go and what to do. Eyes seems to be more peculiar kind of "staff" for Redbeard and not so close to real roles.

In facts, they spy and acquire knowledge in the field, than they report to the Hearts and the Hearts elaborate the tactic and the strategy, then they give orders to the Hands, and these orders may imply to go to the field and contact the Eyes for detailed instructions.

 

Ierarchy in Avadon appears to work in a chaotic way regarding how the Hearts (and Redbeard) employ the Hands.

No clear orders ("Just go there and help that guy whatever he's doing") is a difficulty, than the Keeper is so logged out from what really happens that a lot of Hands are sent here and there only to die after ambushes.

So it seems to me that Redbeard political system might have been efficient when Avadon was smaller and had smaller ambitions/responsibilities, but lacks of efficiency nowadays, so to say.

[Alorael at Large]

The Eyes report what's going on and make their recommendations for Hand involvement to the Hearts. The Hearts approve, amend, or reject their input, but it's still the Eyes whose information directs the Hands on the ground.

 

—Alorael, who knows Avadon is not a corporation and corporate structure doesn't slot in neatly. The Eyes are more than simply intelligence, though. They're also the impetus for all action.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

corporate espionage and hostile takeovers (really hostile)

[Superba]

The role of the Eyes is well descripted but we only meet one of them ingame (at least with a significant role) so we don't really know much about them in first person, and we already saw that in Avadon theory and reality don't often go together in terms of expectations and information. I'm eager to see a more "active" Eye in Avadon II, or I really should think things are in Avadon as in reality, meaning Management people is pretty overvalued :-)

[Skwish-E]

Would you rather have a roving eye or a roving hand?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Better than a wandering heart.

[ex post slarto]

Huh? You meet a whole bunch of Eyes, some in Avadon, some stationed in other territories or out on missions.

[nikki.]

Isn't literally the first person you meet outside of Avadon an Eye?

[ex post slarto]

Yes, and unless I'm totally mistaken, you meet a second Eye in the very next zone, too.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Yes, and unless I'm totally mistaken, you meet a second Eye in the very next zone, too.

Yep. He's the tanner/leather merchant investigating the smugglers providing weapons for the wretches (Neray and her merry bunch).

[Jerakeen]

Mamora, Tamaria, Tartam, and Acacia, off the top of my head.

[Superba]

So you mean Tartam isn't the only one who plays a significant role? The others don't seem to me much relevant in practical terms, i.e. take the one in Goldcrag, you could easily play your game without meeting her, I mean her information on the Town or later on the dangerous times for Hands you can (and you do) collect from other sources. She's unuseful just like the tender of Goldcrag tavern which gives for a tip information you already have.

[nikki.]

I would guess that it'd her who gets Avadon involved in the Kva to be fair, since she seems to be the liason for the area. Maybe she doent do much in-game, but she's does plenty behind the scenes.

[ex post slarto]

I'm not sure what you're expecting here, Superba. If that's your definition of "relevant" and "plays a significant role," then there are very, very, very few characters in the game who meet it.

[Superba]

I'm just wondering about game interaction as a wandering heart may like :-) I refer, well not strictly but mainly to Join The Miscellaneites role division in Avadon and comparison to real life. When I play the game I see there is this difference; Hearts do give orders and you can nearly say they have a strategy the Hands don't know. The Eyes "are told" to play a role that is as vital as that, but they seem to be, Tartam apart, of no comparable interaction and game play utility as the Hearts or, obviously, the Hands. So I don't really would take this subject too seriously, only to speculate that on Avadon II maybe Eyes presence might be more active and ingame.

[nikki.]

Just a thought, but if Eyes, you know, the spies and information gatherers, had a greater presence, they'd be pretty lousy at their jobs.

[Superba]

:-) Point is Hearts job affects the game a player plays, Eyes job is uneffective, speaking of the "reality ingame". You can theoretically play with definitions but not with the "facts" your characters experience and facts are the Eyes, Tartam apart, still don't give your party enough (or at all) quality hints and directions to fit the description.

In other terms, you are a Manager and take responsibilities as Eyes are supposed to, then you collect information in New York or Goldcrag, but information you give to your employees are not vital and they will anyway find by themself. To me that's overvalued work for a Manager.

 

PS: sorry I forgot the Eye in Vebeaux, she is a good one :-)

[ex post slarto]

You're also wrong about the Hearts. You're talking about Miranda, but the other Hearts do not do anything you are talking about while displayed in the game.

[Superba]

That's one point for you, as Zhossa would say.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Superba

:-) Point is Hearts job affects the game a player plays, Eyes job is uneffective, speaking of the "reality ingame". You can theoretically play with definitions but not with the "facts" your characters experience and facts are the Eyes, Tartam apart, still don't give your party enough (or at all) quality hints and directions to fit the description.
In other terms, you are a Manager and take responsibilities as Eyes are supposed to, then you collect information in New York or Goldcrag, but information you give to your employees are not vital and they will anyway find by themself. To me that's overvalued work for a Manager.

PS: sorry I forgot the Eye in Vebeaux, she is a good one :-)

If every Eye in Lynaeus came running up to everybody dressed as Hands of Avadon, spilling information as they went, there would be far fewer Eyes left. The fact that agesnt of Avadon are being hunted down and killed is enough of a reason why they keep to themselves, but also, you're missing the biggest point: their job isn't to give you information. Their job is to pass information on to the hearts, like Miranda, who then tell you what to do. The way I had it set up in my head, only the Hearts (and the Keeper) should ever have any dealings with Eyes, because otherwise you're risking their cover.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

People keep talking about Eyes as if they were exclusively, or even primarily, spies. This is certainly one of their major roles, and some (e.g. Tartam) do focus on gathering information undercover. Others perform different roles: Leira is a librarian, Acacia is more a diplomat and informational liaison, Mamora specializes in interrogation. The unifying factor is dealing with information and intelligence, rather than the narrower focus on espionage that people keep attributing to them.

 

That said, your point about everyone involved in Avadon wanting to keep a relatively low profile because of the recent attacks is a good one, and it's likely that the player never notices some of the more espionage-focused Eyes.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

People keep talking about Eyes as if they were exclusively, or even primarily, spies. This is certainly one of their major roles, and some (e.g. Tartam) do focus on gathering information undercover. Others perform different roles: Leira is a librarian, Acacia is more a diplomat and informational liaison, Mamora specializes in interrogation. The unifying factor is dealing with information and intelligence, rather than the narrower focus on espionage that people keep attributing to them.

That said, your point about everyone involved in Avadon wanting to keep a relatively low profile because of the recent attacks is a good one, and it's likely that the player never notices some of the more espionage-focused Eyes.

Yeah, I'll admit I focus on the espionage-orientated Eyes because, out of Avadon, you're less likely to find librarians or interrogators. Yes, there are liasons, but even if there were one per region, that's a really low number. In the field, on the other hand, and especially given the troubles, I'm going to assume that most Eyes are being used to uncover information. *shrug*

[Superba]

Nikki @

 

Sorry I don't think I am missing the biggest point, I'm ignoring it. Because you look at the game in a sort of God Mode (or total overview), while I deliberately adopt the player point of view. I already tried to explain the dicotomy.

I know what happens in game while I am playing, my point of view is that of the Hands that form my party adding mine as the main character. Hope this is now clear.

 

Again in Goldcrag, we (the party) are on an official mission from Redbeard, she is supposed to know that, more: we have been told in Avadon we will meet her for information. I don't think you may want to argue on her role after this in game facts.

 

The Eye there gives us low quality information the first time we talk. Goldcrag is a friendly place close to Avadon and under Avadon direct protection, there seems to be no real need of high skills or cover to get information here, but she lacks to give a single good hint to us. Not happy with that, she complains she wish to perform her duty somewhere else.

 

The second time we talk she even repeat information we already had from that Hand in Redbeard corridors.

You maybe would say that she isn't entitled to say more?

Personally I don't buy it.

 

From the party and mine point of view this behavior is much less helpful you can expect from anybody on our side.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Superba

The Eye there gives us low quality information the first time we talk. Goldcrag is a friendly place close to Avadon and under Avadon direct protection, there seems to be no real need of high skills or cover to get information here, but she lacks to give a single good hint to us. Not happy with that, she complains she wish to perform her duty somewhere else.

From the party and mine point of view this behavior is much less helpful you can expect from anybody on our side

She tells you where to find Angevine and Tartam. That's pretty useful.

Other than that, she's a minor Eye who lost some sort of political dispute, Goldcrag is located in the middle of nowhere and low on Avadon's list of priorities, and you're an inexperienced newbie with companions who are suspected of disloyalty. How much more do you expect her to know, and what makes you a safe person to divulge information to?

Dikiyoba.

[*i]

Quote:

Sorry I don't think I am missing the biggest point, I'm ignoring it. Because you look at the game in a sort of God Mode (or total overview), while I deliberately adopt the player point of view. I already tried to explain the dicotomy. I know what happens in game while I am playing, my point of view is that of the Hands that form my party adding mine as the main character. Hope this is now clear.

So, what you are saying is you are intentionally adopting an egocentric worldview? Okay. I guess. This seems like a way to purposely reach fallacious conclusions about just about anything, unless you honestly believe there is no reality outside what you subjectively experience.

It is made quite clear that there is far more going on in this world outside the player. You, as the player, are a small and really not all that important piece of the overall action. If you hope to get an accurate view of the world, you cannot base it off what insignificant you actually see. You have no choice but to accept what you are told about the world as being true.

[nikki.]

Okay, so adopting the player point-of-view, you are told that nobody is quite sure what is going on, and that Avadon is figuring out who is behind all the trouble, and who is killing Hands. Since that's the case, maybe the Eyes suck because they haven't any information that they can give to you?

[Superba]

Keeper @

 

Jeff, you wrote my simulated, egocentric point of view leads to nothing (resuming), I am sad about this opinion, because I want to help. Really love Avadon, it's my favourite game after Age of Empires, so please allow me to express some more thoughts.

 

Just as the weakest person consoles himself with the illusory idea of being still and always superior to someone else, so its insignificance as an individual becomes relative.

A Hand of Avadon is objectively insignificant in the grand scheme of events but also the mere objectivity in this game becomes relative if splitted from the subjective point of view.

 

I mean we play ourselves in the condition of a Hand, we are not simulating Miranda or Mamora or Redbeard, but if we would, our first person perspective would be that of the ranks in question. From within the game itself, we invest in characters some emotions, as happens while reading a novel that captivates us. This perspective is both egocentric and common, and it sticks to the anti-social characters that you animated, as members of the party are pretty much egocentric.

 

To imagine an different, unusual and I believe interesting way of relating to the issue, Avadon II might include the chance to play in different roles: Hand, Eye, Heart, and Keeper. I understand that this realization would be extremely difficult, probably impossible because it would essentially create four different games. However, what interests me most is not quarreling but delivering a proactive idea.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

the hand might be the weakest link in avadon, but elsewhere the hand is on top of the pack.

just look at how many conversations end off with "i am a hand of avadon! give me what i want or i will massacre your family, loot your neighbors and burn down your town!"

[Earth]

there aren't that many, Dhorla Stead, Vebeaux and at near endgame where its no use.

[*i]

Superba, first, I'm not Jeff, since I'm not sure who you're talking to.

 

Next, I'm stating the philosophically, a purely egocentric view of knowledge is intellectually specious applied to this game or anything. You as the player/hand are told certain things about the world that you do not observe first hand. Inevitably, you are not told the whole story because that would be impossible, boring, and simply unrealistic (doesn't happen in the real world anyway). Like the real world, you have to use higher level intellectual skills of synthesis to draw your own conclusions about the parts of the world you don't see, just like in real life.

 

Of course, because information is incomplete, you will rarely find two people who reach exactly the same conclusion, even if their conclusions are substantively the same. That's perfectly fine. However, to take the paradigm that you can only believe what you see first hand is unhelpful at best because it allows us to draw conclusions about very little, and those conclusions are likely wrong.

 

Furthermore, our window to the world is revealed to be completely biased! Of course, we only observed places where the Pact and Avadon were incompetent and brutal because that is specifically what we were meant to see! Our egocentric and narcissistic companions were given to us for the exact same reasons. This alone should tell you that your egocentric view of the world was intentionally skewed by those trying to manipulate you to reach specific conclusions.

 

So yeah, it's fine to say these are the conclusions the character is supposed to reach, but it is quite another to state that these conclusions are at the same level as the objective reality of the fictitious world. This is especially so when we are given a major reason to discount what we observed as skewed.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

To clarify: to the best of my knowledge, Jeff Vogel posts on here with the username 'SpidWeb' and no other. Not everyone with a red name is him.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: *i

So yeah, it's fine to say these are the conclusions the character is supposed to reach, but it is quite another to state that these conclusions are at the same level as the objective reality of the fictitious world. This is especially so when we are given a major reason to discount what we observed as skewed.

"Objective reality of the fictitious world" is a funny sort of phrase -- I mean, in an important sense there really isn't any fact of the matter about how the world of Avadon "is". Having said that, you're right that within the context of the fiction it's made clear that the player character doesn't have an unbiased view of the world.

[Superba]

FnordCola @

 

Thanks, I mistaken the identity due to the "Keeper of Avadon" title.

[*i]

Just to clarify things, I took the title "Keeper of Avadon" to be in line with the general theme of the forums. As the color indicates, I am the one of the board admins, and the one that handles most of the higher level board management issues, so the actual employees of the company have more time to make the games we all love.

[*i]

@Lilith,

 

Yeah, it felt weird typing it. Nonetheless, if a a fictitious world has enough internal consistency, you can ascribe that there is are objective truths within that fictitious world, even if that world itself is not real. Within such fictitious world, well-developed characters generally have an imperfect view of it, because, well, they are analogous to you and I, who also have imperfect views of the real world we live in.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

To clarify: to the best of my knowledge, Jeff Vogel posts on here with the username 'SpidWeb' and no other. Not everyone with a red name is him.

Also, I believe Jeff's custom title is The MAN.

Though come to think of it, "Redbeard" could be a cool custom title for Jeff, and it would be accurate as well.

[ex post slarto]

I think the main confusion comes from the fact that Jeff used "Keeper of Exile" as a title coming below his name, for many years. He later used "Keeper of Avernum" in much the same fashion. He did this very consistently in the early days. At least, that was the first thing I thought of when I saw *i's new custom title.