Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 How the heck do I get back into Castle Vebeaux after being ambushed by the assassins. I decided that the appropriate response to my apparent betrayal would be to force my way back in and confront the Duke, rather than flee like a coward. Proper roleplaying of my character requires I do so, after all. The castle keeps sending parties of wolves and basilisks after me, which I easily dispatch, but every time I get to the gate, it refuses to open. If I step away from it for a second, more beasts come after me, so it must be opening. Logically I should be able to get in. What do I have to do? Because running is not an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Spiderweb logic requires that you run away when the dialog tells you to. You can't open the gates and the wolves etc. will keep spawning indefinitely. You have to flee to move the story forward. You will come back to the castle at the right time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Dang it. I hate that kind of storytelling. I've gotten so used to playing games like the Elder Scrolls, where you get to do what you want, when you want. I really cannot justify having my characters flee. It really ruins the game for me. I guess my game ends here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Given that the game has, up until now, not given you any problems, is it really worth giving up on it entirely over one episode? I don't mean to minimize your frustration. But there are legions of CRPGs out there and few if any of them are perfectly tailored to our individual tastes. There are games that have one aspect that really pisses me off, and I don't play them, and other people love them, so I get that; but if you've been enjoying the game so far (and you've played through the majority of it already) why get stuck because of one problematic chapter? I mean, if that were the case, no one would ever finish reading Lord of the Rings, simply due to the Faramir-Eowyn romance chapter. Bleah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 I'm sure I'll finish it. But I'm too annoyed to finish it right now. If you ever played Deus Ex, you'll remember the part where you are forced to lose a fight to Gunther and be taken prisoner. I spent hours, even days, trying to figure out how not to lose that fight, only to give up in frustration and walk away from that game for months. I eventually went on to complete the game about half a dozen times, but I still hate that moment. It's lazy writing. I love Jeff's games, but I'll always hate that. It's why I loved Morrowind. Story? What story? I want to go fishing then go cave diving then go swimming then climb that mountain then kill that guy then be a pirate then join a guild then. . . You get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Jeff has gotten into a mood where he wants to move the story along and will force you to do certain things. Endlessly spawning monsters is his current method, just like in the Howling Depths of Avernum 5. At least there is some loot if you take a moment to explore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Clocknova If you ever played Deus Ex, you'll remember the part where you are forced to lose a fight to Gunther and be taken prisoner. I love it when games do that because it allows for way more interesting story telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Far more interesting to me is being able to advance the story the way I want to advance it. But then, I don't play RPGs to be told a story, I play them to explore and experience new worlds, and to play the roles that I choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: VCH Originally Posted By: Clocknova If you ever played Deus Ex, you'll remember the part where you are forced to lose a fight to Gunther and be taken prisoner. I love it when games do that because it allows for way more interesting story telling. In b4 troll- nope, nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Clocknova ...but I still hate that moment. It's lazy writing. I love Jeff's games, but I'll always hate that. It's why I loved Morrowind. Story? What story? I want to go fishing then go cave diving then go swimming then climb that mountain then kill that guy then be a pirate then join a guild then. . . You get the idea. Wait, how can you complain that having one plot track is lazy writing, then advocate having no plot track? I understand why some people might prefer one or the other, but it seems pretty vain to me to say that writing is lazy just because something about the story's format is not how you like it (in this case, linearity). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Originally Posted By: Clocknova ...but I still hate that moment. It's lazy writing. I love Jeff's games, but I'll always hate that. It's why I loved Morrowind. Story? What story? I want to go fishing then go cave diving then go swimming then climb that mountain then kill that guy then be a pirate then join a guild then. . . You get the idea. Wait, how can you complain that having one plot track is lazy writing, then advocate having no plot track? I understand why some people might prefer one or the other, but it seems pretty vain to me to say that writing is lazy just because something about the story's format is not how you like it (in this case, linearity). Perhaps we should distinguish between lazy writing and lazy design? I don't think this is either, though. Personally I just assume that since the characters don't know they are in a game, they have no way of knowing what is going to come out of that castle, so they would run until they know what is going on. At this point in Avadon, the characters don't really know who has framed them, or why. And from their perspective, combat isn't turn based, so there is no time to think about it. Better to flee until you can return in a somewhat more favorable tactical position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 We've also neglected perhaps the most realistic (if least satisfying) possibility, given such a character design: the hands in question, implacable and not the types to run from a fight, charge Castle Vebeaux and the army inside it. They die, and the castle's elite soldiers divide up their loot. This conveys a tragic meaninglessness in keeping with the best absurdist playwrights, and retroactively makes Avadon pretty much the shaggy dog story to end all shaggy dog stories. That's a roundabout way of saying that I disagree with Clocknova's sentiments, and agree with VCH. While I enjoy games that allow the player a range of choices, those choices need to be within a set of parameters. The world needs to push back, and behave like an actual world, in order to give the decisions I make any meaning. If I try to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring, I ought not succeed simply because I am the protagonist, and if my small, elite squad charges an entire damn army, they ought to get the Bolivian Army Ending they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: FnordCola The world needs to push back, and behave like an actual world, in order to give the decisions I make any meaning. If I try to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring, I ought not succeed simply because I am the protagonist, and if my small, elite squad charges an entire damn army, they ought to get the Bolivian Army Ending they deserve. I believe A4 and 6 had an automatic "YOU DIED" ending if you attacked the King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Yeah, it's a pretty common thing in Jeff's games, especially recent ones. There are auto-game overs for attacking the king, as you mention. If I recall correctly, attacking certain other important people in A6, or failing too many main plot quests will also get one a nonstandard game over. Likewise making people one has to please in order to advance the plot in A5 hostile (e.g. the mayor of New Harston). Likewise if one annoys certain factions in their home bases in G5, or manages to alienate all the factions. There are probably others that I don't recall offhand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 It's fun having some of the game play completely out of my control. For example, if Jeff forces two of my characters to get trapped somewhere, and I have to use the one remaining character to rescue them, that's fun. It makes for a much more dynamic story. Jeff could even outright kill one of my characters, (no resurrect) and I'd be cool with that. It would be shocking, and I'd be angry, and confused. But then that's a good thing, to you know, actually feel something when playing a game besides the standard dopamine rush from levelling a character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 I guess the whole thing would have seemed less awkward to me if, having fought my way into the first antechamber of the lower castle, I hadn't found myself standing in front of a closed gate in an empty room, with a couple of non-hostile people milling about on the other side as if nothing was wrong, only to have a small band of beasts materialize from nothing the moment I stepped outside. If Jeff really wanted me to go the other way, then perhaps he should have sent more bad guys. If I want to charge an army and nobly die in glorious battle like a fine Klingon warrior, then buy all means let me do so. It's no less a reasonable roleplaying choice than running for my life. But at least give me an army to dash myself against. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: madrigan Personally I just assume that since the characters don't know they are in a game, they have no way of knowing what is going to come out of that castle, so they would run until they know what is going on. At this point in Avadon, the characters don't really know who has framed them, or why. And from their perspective, combat isn't turn based, so there is no time to think about it. Better to flee until you can return in a somewhat more favorable tactical position. However, since I tend to place myself in the role that I am playing, I prefer to make in-game choices based on what I would do in that situation, not what I think some other person whose movements I am controlling would do. That Blademaster on the screen there is me. Would I run, or would I make my betrayer answer to my blade, no matter the consequences? Of course, in real life, if I were being hunted by an entire army of men and beasts, I'd run my ass off. But the idealized me that inhabits whatever RPG I happen to be playing would never, ever do so. Still, I understand that limits of technology, money, and manpower dictate certain design limitations, so I'm not mad, just irritated. I'll get over it, but the comments in my previous post stand; if you don't have any contingency planned for the story if I choose not to run, then design the game so that I can fight the good fight, die like a warrior, the reload and run like a coward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Clocknova However, since I tend to place myself in the role that I am playing, I prefer to make in-game choices based on what I would do in that situation, not what I think some other person whose movements I am controlling would do. That Blademaster on the screen there is me. Would I run, or would I make my betrayer answer to my blade, no matter the consequences? Of course, in real life, if I were being hunted by an entire army of men and beasts, I'd run my ass off. But the idealized me that inhabits whatever RPG I happen to be playing would never, ever do so. You can envision your character however you like, of course, but I think the complete question is not, "What would the idealized me do?" but "What would the idealized me do if he were a Blademaster from Avadon under these specific circumstances?" The Blademaster is not a Klington warrior or a lost soul with a death wish. He's a highly trained elite government agent. Is running towards an army and getting killed what a RW example of this sort of person would do? A C.I.A. field operative, or a Special Forces soldier? I think it's not, because if you are killed in this way you cannot complete the mission. Obviously, it's none of my business how your conceive your character. If you want to stipulate that your Blademaster is a time traveler or a Wookiee, that's up to you. I do think, though, that the game world limits what characters make sense. So I'm just suggesting this because this approach helps me enjoy the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 But then again, it seems that this whole game is about questioning my status as an unfeeling agent of an all-powerful institution. My comrades have each already acted in ways that a Hand of Avadon typically would not, and I have assisted them in doing so, meaning that my past behavior is already outside the norm for an agent in my position. Perhaps I am finally fed up with everything and have decided to take a stand right here. It could happen. It does happen. If I had been put through what my poor character has been put through, I might just snap and decide to go Rambo on these bad guys. You never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Rambo Wookiee!!!! Awwuuurrrrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Originally Posted By: Clocknova But then again, it seems that this whole game is about questioning my status as an unfeeling agent of an all-powerful institution. My comrades have each already acted in ways that a Hand of Avadon typically would not, and I have assisted them in doing so, meaning that my past behavior is already outside the norm for an agent in my position. Perhaps I am finally fed up with everything and have decided to take a stand right here. It could happen. It does happen. If I had been put through what my poor character has been put through, I might just snap and decide to go Rambo on these bad guys. You never know. Heh, that's true. But the game is very frustrating if you approach it that way, as you have noted. I will also note that Rambo did not snap because he had begun to question the government or the military, but because a bunch of badged thugs decided he wasn't good enough to buy a sandwich in their town and then subjected him to physical abuse. Also, he didn't go suicidal. He proceeded very rationally once he decided to fight back. He very specifically did not run right at the National Guard troops. I suppose it would be cool if your character could go rogue and escape into the wilderness, and then wage a one-man guerrilla war against Kellemdriel, but that's a bit too much to ask from this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan jlsgaladriel Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Fnord, it is so entirely your fault that I've spent the last two hours reading tvtropes.org . On the other hand, at least now I know what a Bolivian Army Ending is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 You're welcome. And only two hours? Truly you have willpower befitting an agent of Avadon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma Masquerade Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: FnordCola The world needs to push back, and behave like an actual world, in order to give the decisions I make any meaning. If I try to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring, I ought not succeed simply because I am the protagonist, and if my small, elite squad charges an entire damn army, they ought to get the Bolivian Army Ending they deserve. You need to go on the quest for the shrubbery first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Well, you need to finish the shrubbery quest to get the arboreal/icthyoid quest. The latter requires more lateral thinking, as indeed does defeating the entire Bolivian army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan jlsgaladriel Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Can't I just gather a group of my friends to hand out and say, "ni!" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgeoning Battle Gamma Masquerade Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel Can't I just gather a group of my friends to hand out and say, "ni!" ? you could, but you're reputation points will take a dive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Yes, but then someone will come along and say "it" to you repeatedly, and then you'll get a game over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug othersean Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 All joking aside... Clocknova -- It seems like Avernum 3 and Geneforge 2 would be right up your alley. Both have a short, linear warm-up followed by extended combat tourism. In both, you can attack just about anyone you want, in any way you want, and live with the consequences. You can do anything from pleasing almost everyone to being treacherous to them all and ending up the last, gore-spattered one standing. I often prefer this kind of wide-open game (if Jeff remade A1 with modern controls, I would buy it), but sometimes it's nice to have more of an "interactive story." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Soul of Wit Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Originally Posted By: othersean All joking aside... Clocknova -- It seems like Avernum 3 and Geneforge 2 would be right up your alley. Both have a short, linear warm-up followed by extended combat tourism. In both, you can attack just about anyone you want, in any way you want, and live with the consequences. You can do anything from pleasing almost everyone to being treacherous to them all and ending up the last, gore-spattered one standing. I often prefer this kind of wide-open game (if Jeff remade A1 with modern controls, I would buy it), but sometimes it's nice to have more of an "interactive story." Agreed. My favorites of both series, for the reasons stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Clocknova Posted April 16, 2011 Author Share Posted April 16, 2011 Never could get into Geneforge, but I agree with you on Avernum 3, also my favorite for those reasons. I cannot wait to see it again in all its updated engine glory. Hopefully Jeff will make Avadon 2 a little more like Avernum 3. Nothing wrong with taking a sequel in a different direction (unless you're Dragon Age 2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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