A6 - Is playing through without skill points possible?

[Fearstung]

I've been playing Spiderweb demos since Exile, and I bought Blades of Avernum. I finally decided to play a full game when I found out that A6 is the last of the series. I've found it extremely rewarding, both in gameplay and writing (even not having already met people like Solberg and X when they were younger).

 

Anyway, I've always been more into tactics than character-building in RPGs, so at some point soon after the destruction of the Great Portal I stopped spending my skill points. I decided to keep this up, and I've just killed the Impaler with my characters looking like this afterwards. This is at Hard difficulty.

 

From skimming the forums, my characters are poorly designed (I have three humans and the archer has those extra levels because he's Frail and Brittle Bones). And I'm a relatively inexperienced player. And I hoard collectables. So this implies to me that for a powergamer the game is finishable on Hard or even Torment without spending a single skill point after creation. Has someone tried this? Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

As for my current game, I might reward myself with using some skill points after I kill the Manburner, assuming she shows up soon now that her colleagues are lizard meat. Kudos to Jeff Vogel and company for a great game!

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Fearstung

So this implies to me that for a powergamer the game is finishable on Hard or even Torment without spending a single skill point after creation. Has someone tried this? Sorry if this has been asked before.

I believe that either Slarty (CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES) or Randomizer completed Geneforge 4 without spending skill points. This may just be a rumor, though.

I've certainly breezed through a SW game or two (A3 comes to mind) on normal with ~20 points in the bank by the end- but I didn't know it was possible on Torment.

[Øther]

In my opinion, that would be obsenely difficult, and if I tried it, I would do horribly (even on low difficulties) and give up quickly. But other people might want to do this, and I would like to see someone attempt this.

[Aoslare]

Actually, I believe that was Thuryl/Lilith. Thurilith definitely completed it without using any spells or creations, which was my challenge. I think he followed that up with something similar to what Dantdring describes.

[Lilith]

i never did any such thing and nor would i, skill points are awesome and i <3 spending them

[Lilith]

it's possible somebody suggested that i ought to do so though

 

i think creator might even have tried to one-up me by attempting it, but i don't think he finished

[Alorael at Large]

I beat Avernum 6 without spending any skill points. In fact, I used a singleton custom character with no points spent from the very beginning. And I therefore didn't cast spells of any kind. Having decided I might as well go all the way, I also refrained from using items or attacking. My victory was difficult but rewarding.

 

—Alorael, who considers the best reward bragging rights. As a bonus, you don't even have to actually accomplish Herculean feats for that at all!

[Randomizer]

I never played a game without spending skill points. I think that it's an urban myth.

 

Now someone did play Eschalon: Book 2 with a first level character.

[La paix]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

I've certainly breezed through a SW game or two (A3 comes to mind) on normal with ~20 points in the bank by the end- but I didn't know it was possible on Torment.

I just finished A3 with a Tormented duo, and I was begging for more pain by the end. I had ~60 points each left over. Once you hit the damage cap of 199 per blow and the dodge cap, there's pretty much no reason to spend points.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Fractal

Originally Posted By: Dantius

I've certainly breezed through a SW game or two (A3 comes to mind) on normal with ~20 points in the bank by the end- but I didn't know it was possible on Torment.

I just finished A3 with a Tormented duo, and I was begging for more pain by the end. I had ~60 points each left over. Once you hit the damage cap of 199 per blow and the dodge cap, there's pretty much no reason to spend points.

Heh, on Normal I had the Mithril Blade before finishing the slimes, and the Ring of Endless Magery before even entering Troglo Castle. And that was with a singleton!

[Fearstung]

Originally Posted By: Øther

In my opinion, that would be obsenely difficult

Don't get me wrong, it has been for me! In the battle with the Impaler, I healed up after the throne room guards and after the general, but when I rang the gong again a ridiculous battle ensued with the Impaler and two guards who had snuck in from the neighboring room. I ended up using two hits of skribanne, three invulnerability potions, two battle crystals, a complete wand of Kill, and more, and after a long while of people being thrown around the arena, only my fighter was left standing to kill him. She foolishly rang the gong again to taunt the sliths, then had to use an invulnerability elixir, a strong daze wand, a regeneration scroll and a haste elixir to escape the mob. She hit the pylon just in time and appeared in the portal keep with three unconscious teammates and 15 hit points left. This was on my fourth or fifth try. This is what I call a good game! (Though I don't think I'll be trying the Formello quest again any time soon...)

I'll see how far I can get on this playthrough without spending any more points. Then I'll try to match Alorael's feat on Torment, except I'll allow myself to attack anyone who tries to give me a quest.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Fearstung

I'll see how far I can get on this playthrough without spending any more points. Then I'll try to match Alorael's feat on Torment, except I'll allow myself to attack anyone who tries to give me a quest.

I'm pretty sure Aloreal didn't actually do that, and was just poking fun at all the minmaxers on the boards who try...

[Fearstung]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

I'm pretty sure Aloreal didn't actually do that, and was just poking fun at all the minmaxers on the boards who try...

Oh, my bad. His brag seemed so plausible, so I was inspired to attempt something slightly more difficult but still entirely plausible.

[Alorael at Large]

Plausible? You actually can't even begin to play A6 without any way of dealing damage.

 

—Alorael, who has heard it bandied about that Geneforge can be played with stealth. Mechanics, and Leadership only. He's never felt impelled to try.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Means and Ends Committee

Plausible? You actually can't even begin to play A6 without any way of dealing damage.

Sure you can. You just have to lure each rat back to the sarge and let him kill it while you keep healing.

[Øther]

I think that problem with this would be gaining exp....few kills means few levels. Also, thorny aura would be your friend (if you can survive the hit).

[Alorael at Large]

You missed the parts were I said no spells and no items.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't really think the lack of experience is an additional problem. The little bits of health aren't going to help if you can't spend experience.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Gentlemen Scholars

Plausible? You actually can't even begin to play A6 without any way of dealing damage.

—Alorael, who has heard it bandied about that Geneforge can be played with stealth. Mechanics, and Leadership only. He's never felt impelled to try.

I tried playing through G3 without ever attacking, and got...oh, about halfway through the game. Based on what I saw, and what I could foresee for how the rest of the game would play out, it was absolutely possible to complete without ever personally inflicting damage on anything. Leadership, mechanics, and stealth were key. However, not personally inflicting damage means a number instances where one uses leadership or mechanics to get NPCs to inflict damage for you (such as talking Therese into helping you out under the school in the first zone). Other times one could lead a monster through the zone back to a friendly NPC. Of course this meant some zones were truly unclearable, but a surprising number could be cleared with out ever directly inflicting damage (either through one's shaper or any player-controlled creations/Greta and Alwan). I suspect such methods would work most/all of the other Geneforge games, but from what I've seen the Avernum games were never designed to accommodate such tactics.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Triumph

Originally Posted By: Gentlemen Scholars

Plausible? You actually can't even begin to play A6 without any way of dealing damage.

—Alorael, who has heard it bandied about that Geneforge can be played with stealth. Mechanics, and Leadership only. He's never felt impelled to try.

I tried playing through G3 without ever attacking, and got...oh, about halfway through the game. Based on what I saw, and what I could foresee for how the rest of the game would play out, it was absolutely possible to complete without ever personally inflicting damage on anything. Leadership, mechanics, and stealth were key. However, not personally inflicting damage means a number instances where one uses leadership or mechanics to get NPCs to inflict damage for you (such as talking Therese into helping you out under the school in the first zone). Other times one could lead a monster through the zone back to a friendly NPC. Of course this meant some zones were truly unclearable, but a surprising number could be cleared with out ever directly inflicting damage (either through one's shaper or any player-controlled creations/Greta and Alwan). I suspect such methods would work most/all of the other Geneforge games, but from what I've seen the Avernum games were never designed to accommodate such tactics.

I'm sure that someone's done this in G1. I might try it myself, with the caevet that I'm allowed to attack in the second tutorial zone.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Triumph

I tried playing through G3 without ever attacking, and got...oh, about halfway through the game. Based on what I saw, and what I could foresee for how the rest of the game would play out, it was absolutely possible to complete without ever personally inflicting damage on anything. Leadership, mechanics, and stealth were key. However, not personally inflicting damage means a number instances where one uses leadership or mechanics to get NPCs to inflict damage for you (such as talking Therese into helping you out under the school in the first zone). Other times one could lead a monster through the zone back to a friendly NPC. Of course this meant some zones were truly unclearable, but a surprising number could be cleared with out ever directly inflicting damage (either through one's shaper or any player-controlled creations/Greta and Alwan). I suspect such methods would work most/all of the other Geneforge games, but from what I've seen the Avernum games were never designed to accommodate such tactics.

You still need magic and items in order to heal your allies, though. They generally can't win the fight for you all on their lonesome.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Originally Posted By: Triumph

I tried playing through G3 without ever attacking, and got...oh, about halfway through the game. Based on what I saw, and what I could foresee for how the rest of the game would play out, it was absolutely possible to complete without ever personally inflicting damage on anything. Leadership, mechanics, and stealth were key. However, not personally inflicting damage means a number instances where one uses leadership or mechanics to get NPCs to inflict damage for you (such as talking Therese into helping you out under the school in the first zone). Other times one could lead a monster through the zone back to a friendly NPC. Of course this meant some zones were truly unclearable, but a surprising number could be cleared with out ever directly inflicting damage (either through one's shaper or any player-controlled creations/Greta and Alwan). I suspect such methods would work most/all of the other Geneforge games, but from what I've seen the Avernum games were never designed to accommodate such tactics.

You still need magic and items in order to heal your allies, though. They generally can't win the fight for you all on their lonesome.

First, clarification: I never attempted to not use magic or items; that was a different sort of "challenge." If nothing else, living tools are a must use item, as are items to boost Leadership/Mechanics. Speed pods really help with "sneaking" as well, giving one those extra few steps to slip around corners.

Second, minor clarification: I only played on normal, so bumping up the difficulty could change things.

Now, not sure what you mean by allies... If by allies you mean using creations and Greta/Alwan, then yes, but I'm not counting those, since I didn't use them because you control them and I would count that as directly attacking; things I control that inflict damage. If, on the other hand, by allies you mean total NPCs like the guard at a city gate...no, you don't really need to heal them. I've watched the shaper raiding party plus the hacked shaping machines kill off Akhari-Blaze all on their own, without any help from me. It is true that in some places you can definitely help out friendly NPCs with a blessing, shielding, or healing spell (or just keep yourself alive as you RUN), but I don't know that it was necessary. You might be surprised at how powerful and effective some of the NPC characters proved to be. Often all I had to do was lead the rogues to friendly NPCs.

[Txgangsta]

Only now that I'm going as an anama on A5 have I ever used potions, scrolls, wands, or crystals beyond that of knowledge brews and wisdom crystals. Its against my style. Even in Geneforge I didn't use items.

 

Note: I do play on Normal, so I guess it balances out the difficulty.

[Fearstung]

So I finished my game with over 200 skill points left each (after eating my saved-up knowledge potions/crystals). I let myself buy two mage skills points for the wizard and one point of an important ability for each other character, otherwise I hadn't spent points since the great portal quest. (Stats).

 

Anyway, I would recommend this sort of thing to new players looking for a challenge. I certainly found it a lot of fun. But I imagine if you had already played through, the fact that even simple battles like against monsters north of Refuge became multiple reload/trip-to-the-healer affairs would be pretty awful.

 

I played through most of the side quests. There was a interesting range of difficulty. The lich in the Eastern Caves was difficult but not particularly so. And the final battle was average difficulty (though nicely designed). But the wizard in the Honeycomb was very difficult even though I fought him near the end. And the firecalling demon was near-impossible (he was the reason I broke down and spent some points). I just gave up on the slith blademaster east of Formello after a few tries.

 

Again, it was challenging and rewarding, so I imagine a no-point runthrough would be even more so. I don't know when I'll try it if ever, since I think if I play again at some point, I will want to kill a certain wizard and dragon of dubious moral uprightness, and this was not very likely to happen for this set of characters.

 

If I sound braggy here that isn't my intention. I just wanted to propose a potentially fun way to play the game. Which is an excellent game. Thanks, Jeff Vogel etc. Looking forward to Avadon!

[Lilith]

bragging about your achievements is half of what the game-specific forums are for, don't worry about it

[Fearstung]

Cool, good to know.