A6 - Newbie help required, please

[fnl]

I have some decades of experience with RPG games and do not consider myself too stupid to build decent characters - until now, at least. After playing for a while with the demo, I decided I really like Avernum 6 and got the app. However, now I am a bit in trouble: after playing this awesome game for a few days, I am now around Level 9 or so with my characters, and have completed all missions I could find and master before being sent off to the Portal. If I go and do that Portal mission with the massive attack of those impish demons however, I get plastered, completely - even if I set the difficulty to easy. Also, for example if I try going after the Skribbane guys (there is one below the city to the west of the castle, and one in an abandoned fort), I get plastered - no avail. I am a bit lost - I cannot find any simpler missions I can do and the ones I have are too hard for my party - even if I set the difficulty to easy (which I despise, really).

 

As I am new to this game, maybe I am not understanding the game mechanisms and am developing my characters wrong? I have, at Level 9, each of the characters main (STR,DEX,INT,END) two attributes at 5 or 6, the third att at around 4 and the unimportant one at 2 (depending on their role). Then, their fighting/mage/priest skill is at 7 (dep. on role, again), and the rest is spread out across such things as the lores, defense, luck, etc. My mage also does the lock-picking (at 7, too). Am I doing something utterly wrong with character development (1 pole fighter liz, 1 ambidex fighter human, 1 neph priest, 1 mage human)? If so, could anybody give me an idea what to emphasize - what is a good starting build, where to aim at for early levels, say Level 15, and what build do endgame characters have?

 

On the other side, maybe I am entirely wrong and at Level 9 I should simply not be wandering off to the Portal Gate mission? But if so, are there any missions apart from boards and the guy at the castle I can be doing?

 

Help, please - I am stuck! Thank you!

[Ephesos]

The Skribbane guys are best saved for later, when you're more powerful. This is generally the case with most of the quests that seem to difficult for when you first find them... they actually are.

 

Try hitting up all the job boards. They are generally the best way to level up. And if you're really desperate, you can go back to zones you've already cleared and look for any monsters that have respawned.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: fnl

As I am new to this game, maybe I am not understanding the game mechanisms and am developing my characters wrong? I have, at Level 9, each of the characters main (STR,DEX,INT,END) two attributes at 5 or 6, the third att at around 4 and the unimportant one at 2 (depending on their role). Then, their fighting/mage/priest skill is at 7 (dep. on role, again), and the rest is spread out across such things as the lores, defense, luck, etc. My mage also does the lock-picking (at 7, too). Am I doing something utterly wrong with character development (1 pole fighter liz, 1 ambidex fighter human, 1 neph priest, 1 mage human)? If so, could anybody give me an idea what to emphasize - what is a good starting build, where to aim at for early levels, say Level 15, and what build do endgame characters have?

Strength isn't that important until higher levels when you're trying to unlock Blademaster, and Dexterity is nearly useless except for unlocking special skills like Dual Wielding, Parry and Sharpshooter. Intelligence and Endurance are both pretty important: you'll want at least 8 Endurance on all characters by the later parts of the game. Bump Intelligence on your spellcasters whenever you find that you're running out of spell points a lot.

7 is about right for weapon skills at this point in the game, but your spellcasting skills could stand to be a bit higher.

Do you have at least two characters capable of casting priest spells? I find that's useful for keeping up with the healing you'll need to do.

Luck is pretty useless and so is Defense (except for unlocking Parry), and you only need about 3 points of Arcane Lore and Nature Lore on each character in a 4-person party. Tool Use could be a bit higher: you'll want to get it to 12 as soon as possible, and that's basically enough for the rest of the game (plus bonuses from gear you'll get later on).

Spend all your money on skill training, and as little as possible on items or spells. The bonuses you get from trainers like the guy in the little house east of Almaria will benefit you for the whole game.

What traits did you pick? They make a huge difference. Divinely Touched makes every character better, Elite Warrior greatly improves the effectiveness of your fighters, and Natural Mage and Pure Spirit are incredibly helpful for spellcasters. If you didn't load up on positive traits, the game is going to be a bit harder for you. Also, humans are objectively inferior to nephilim and slithzerikai, since the latter two get bonuses to their combat skills, making it easier to unlock battle disciplines (which are very useful). Experience penalties don't matter in the long run.

Level 9 seems a bit early to be taking on the portal, but you can probably manage with good tactics. Cast all your buffs (War Blessing, Protection, Haste) before triggering the encounter. Trigger it while your party is in combat mode so that you get the drop on the enemies for the first round. Cast Slow on your enemies so that some of them miss their turn. Use summoned monsters to distract them. Let Nichol do as much of the fighting as you can: he's tough. Heal him if he somehow gets badly hurt. Kill a few imps, and when the game tells you to run, run.

[Lilith]

Oh, and if you want to know what a reasonably good party build looks like at around level 15:

 

http://www.abload.de/img/daseinq0yc.jpg - Slith polearm fighter, Divinely Touched/Elite Warrior

http://www.abload.de/img/yrtu45yj.jpg - Nephil dual-wielding fighter, Divinely Touched/Elite Warrior

http://www.abload.de/img/crystalt20c.jpg - Nephil priest/archer, Divinely Touched/Pure Spirit

http://www.abload.de/img/thuryly36s.jpg - Nephil mage/priest, Divinely Touched/Natural Mage

 

This party is exploring the Abyss at the moment, just to give you an idea of what level you should be at what point in the game.

[Lilith]

And for comparison, here's what my party looked like at level 9, around the end of the demo portion of the game:

 

http://www.abload.de/img/l9daseinr4a1.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/l9yrtut1q0.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/l9crystali3on.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/l9thurylg2cw.jpg

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

EDIT: I'm jealous of Thuryl from more of a powergaming perspective. My party has suited me very well, but my characters sure don't appear as "skilled."

 

So... How the HELL does your mage have 15 mage, 12 priest skill? Not to mention 13 spellcraft without having invested skill points in it, apparently.

 

Looking at your build, it seems I've overinvested in Stength for my fighters, which MIGHT explain the difference in melee/pole levels, but I also have to ask: did you somehow bypass almaria early game to train with Taddeo before raising any of your fighting skills? I'm just not seeing how some of those are so high at level 18. Also, I'm only level 14 at the spire. What's up with that?

 

EDIT: From an earlier post of Thuryl's, I understand now that buying multiple levels of a spell was a waste. I'm a little resentful now that Jeff even offers that as money bait. I could have spent it on the trainers I can no longer afford.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Blue Wizard Shot a Potion

Uh... How the HELL does your mage have 15 mage, 12 priest skill? Not to mention 13 spellcraft without having invested skill points in it, apparently.

It's a combination of bonuses from traits and items. Between the Enchanter's Robe, Incantor's Ring, Clarity Talisman and Samaritan Sandals, that's +3 to Mage and +1 to Priest. He's also getting +2 Intelligence from the Girdle of Genius, so that frees up more skill points to invest in Priest Spells. Spellcraft bonuses come from Divinely Touched, various pieces of equipment and the blessing from the priestess in Dharmon.

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Looking at your build, it seems I've overinvested in Stength for my fighters, which MIGHT explain the difference in melee/pole levels,

It won't hurt you in the long run, since you need lots of bought Strength to unlock Blademaster.

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but I also have to ask: did you somehow bypass almaria early game to train with Taddeo before raising any of your fighting skills? I'm just not seeing how some of those are so high at level 18.

No, I didn't wait for the trainers to raise my main combat skill on my sword and pole fighters. Remember, though, the slith is getting a huge racial bonus to Pole Weapons.

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Also, I'm only level 14 at the spire. What's up with that?

You can expect to gain a couple of levels in the Abyss; there's quite a bit of questing and fighting to do. Also, I've been pretty thorough about clearing out optional areas, for the most part. I haven't done anything ridiculous like killing the Tower Colony haakai or clearing out the Honeycomb yet, but I've done just about everything else.

How did you enjoy the Chiroptera Demon, by the way? That was quite some battle.

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EDIT: From an earlier post of Thuryl's, I understand now that buying multiple levels of a spell was a waste. I'm a little resentful now that Jeff even offers that as money bait. I could have spent it on the trainers I can no longer afford.

Yeah, this pretty much sucks. Oh well.

Don't feel bad if your party isn't as absurdly optimised as mine. I squeeze every last drop of performance out of my party because that's what it takes to play on Torment, but you don't have to do that if you just want to get through the game on Normal.

Oh, and don't be afraid to use wands, potions or crystals in tough battles. They're handy, and they won't do you any good if you hold on to them forever.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

I'm always grateful for a thorough reply from Thuryl. I'll let you know what I think of Chiroptera when I get to him. I underestimated my progress. I still have the undead north of tower colony and the blessed athame to retrieve before exiting fort saffron.

 

Also, I've decided to hack my Gold back up by looking at the costs I would have saved not leveling the spells.

 

What I DO like about my party is the high magical efficiency I set up during party creation. That's been great to me.

 

(But since I started using ouchouchouch/imdrained to "rest" as a time-saver for running back to town, even the magical efficiency is less impressive.)

 

AND, after I've retrained my characters based on skills I might have purchased differently (I'll keep the skill points I used up, however), I think I'll try Torment.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Oh, and don't be afraid to use wands, potions or crystals in tough battles. They're handy, and they won't do you any good if you hold on to them forever.

I would suggest stockpiling your disruption wands, though. There was one specific battle where I burned through the entire game's worth of disruption wands in about four rounds. I won't spoiler where it is... you'll know it when you see it.

Originally Posted By: Blue Wizard Shot a Potion

From an earlier post of Thuryl's, I understand now that buying multiple levels of a spell was a waste. I'm a little resentful now that Jeff even offers that as money bait. I could have spent it on the trainers I can no longer afford.

I keep reading this and I mostly live by it, but I have to wonder... don't multiple levels increase the damage from combat spells? Even if it's only a little, some of the early spells are dirt cheap -- you can max out Bolt of Fire for just a couple of hundred gold? Wouldn't that, Repel Spirit, and maybe Smite and/or Icy Rain be worth it? They're so cheap, even if the damage increase is minor, it's hard to argue against it.

And I do have one question about Thuryl's party. Although it's much better optimized than mine in almost every respect, why don't the two fighters each have a level of priest? I always give my fighters a single level of priest right at the start so that they can use Minor Heal to get the party's hit points back up to full strength between combats without wasting spell points from the real casters, healing potions, food, etc. Even with minimum Intelligence, they still represent a significant reservoir of spell points that would otherwise be wasted. Even with that, my priest's spell points are usually the weak link for when I have to go back to town and rest up.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Fael

I would suggest stockpiling your disruption wands, though. There was one specific battle where I burned through the entire game's worth of disruption wands in about four rounds. I won't spoiler where it is... you'll know it when you see it.

I'm already at the point where disruption wands don't do very much damage compared to my attacks. I used up a few charges each on the Crypt Wight and the Cackling Demon, and am basically selling the rest. We'll see how that goes for me.

There are certainly some tough fights with undead in the game, but there are other ways around those. I used up nearly two full inferno wands on the quickghast fight in the Undead Spiral.

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I keep reading this and I mostly live by it, but I have to wonder... don't multiple levels increase the damage from combat spells? Even if it's only a little, some of the early spells are dirt cheap -- you can max out Bolt of Fire for just a couple of hundred gold? Wouldn't that, Repel Spirit, and maybe Smite and/or Icy Rain be worth it? They're so cheap, even if the damage increase is minor, it's hard to argue against it.

Yeah, for the cheap early spells that you're going to keep using throughout the game, it's not so bad to invest in them if you've got a few hundred coins burning a hole in your pocket. I'd rather go for skills first, though.

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And I do have one question about Thuryl's party. Although it's much better optimized than mine in almost every respect, why don't the two fighters each have a level of priest? I always give my fighters a single level of priest right at the start so that they can use Minor Heal to get the party's hit points back up to full strength between combats without wasting spell points from the real casters, healing potions, food, etc. Even with minimum Intelligence, they still represent a significant reservoir of spell points that would otherwise be wasted. Even with that, my priest's spell points are usually the weak link for when I have to go back to town and rest up.

I can always temporarily stick the Samaritan Sandals on my fighters if I want to use them as heal batteries between fights. I haven't really needed to do so up to now, although since I'm kinda running low on energy potions it's probably not the worst idea to start doing it.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

So I spent 6041 gold on upgrading spell levels by the time my characters were level 14. That would have covered the cost of training my fighters with Taddeo. Thuryl, how did you earn the 12000 gold needed to buy all the Dharmon blessings?

[Alorael at Large]

Sell everything you're definitely not going to use. Sell everything you aren't definitely going to use. Sell every little thing with tiny values. Buy nothing but skills. Do all the quests, and if you're really strapped test the different possible resolutions for the most lucrative.

 

—Alorael, who hasn't quite hit that 12000. He's close, though, and he has a few levels and a few areas to go.

[Lilith]

Pretty much that, yeah. If you've been hoarding food since the start of the game, you can probably afford to sell about 3/4 of it for a few hundred extra coins. Make sure your food in your inventory is ordered with the least valuable items first, so that they're the first to get eaten. Sell any usable items you don't want (I don't bother with healing or curing potions, although I keep Group Heal scrolls for emergencies), and don't keep a stack of semi-useless equipment lying around "in case you need it one day".

 

Also, once you've cased a town, identified what items are worth stealing and taken the ones you actually want, use the rest of your theft allowance on stealing whichever items will sell for the most. I've gained at least a thousand coins in stolen goods alone over the course of the game, and I haven't even tried that hard to optimise my thefts.

[fnl]

First of all, @Thuryl: thank you so much for your guide!!! Great information, thorough and very condensed, which I wasn't able to find so far! However, I guess, my party sucks - I did about everything wrong you are writing about, having only one priest, spell-casters with strength and DEX at 3 and 4, etc. etc. (I gave them STR 3 so they could wear more armor, they were often quite badly hurt by range attacks, and the mage draws aggro like nothing with ice rains...). And not to mention that I invested mostly ALL of my money into buying higher spell levels... Well, given that I'm not very far into the game, I might just start over from scratch using your advices about char design.

 

BTW, one more question: What is the issue about food - I remember getting a message at the castle that I have to look after food, but I never saw any sign on my characters that they are "hungry". Would there be any indicator for that somewhere? Maybe my party is that bad just because they are hungry... (just joking, seriously)

[fnl]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

What traits did you pick? They make a huge difference. Divinely Touched makes every character better, Elite Warrior greatly improves the effectiveness of your fighters, and Natural Mage and Pure Spirit are incredibly helpful for spellcasters. If you didn't load up on positive traits, the game is going to be a bit harder for you. Also, humans are objectively inferior to nephilim and slithzerikai, since the latter two get bonuses to their combat skills, making it easier to unlock battle disciplines (which are very useful). Experience penalties don't matter in the long run.

And concerning this issue: I didn't pick any, I though the exp penalties might be worse than having traits... Another good reason to start over, I guess.

[fnl]

Here's my (miserable, compared to Thuryl's...) party, to complement your post; seems, BTW, just before the first levels up to 9; At least, I got the thing about having STR 3 on my spell-casters wrong, they do have STR 2 only.

• Fighter Polearm
• Fighter Dual Wield
• Priest
• Mage

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: fnl

First of all, @Thuryl: thank you so much for your guide!!! Great information, thorough and very condensed, which I wasn't able to find so far! However, I guess, my party sucks - I did about everything wrong you are writing about, having only one priest, spell-casters with strength and DEX at 3 and 4, etc. etc. (I gave them STR 3 so they could wear more armor, they were often quite badly hurt by range attacks, and the mage draws aggro like nothing with ice rains...). And not to mention that I invested mostly ALL of my money into buying higher spell levels... Well, given that I'm not very far into the game, I might just start over from scratch using your advices about char design.

Putting one extra point of Strength on your spellcasters so they can wear heavier equipment won't ruin your build all by itself, and is admittedly quite convenient when you're juggling armour around to keep everyone under the weight limit while still making use of your best items. I try to hold off on it for as long as possible, though.

One thing to remember: not all armours are created equal. Look at the ratio of protection to weight. Body armour and bracers provide good protection for their weight (although armour with hit penalties is bad for mages without Natural Mage), shields are moderately good, most other equipment is so-so, and helmets and greaves tend to be lousy (although there are a few good helmets).

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BTW, one more question: What is the issue about food - I remember getting a message at the castle that I have to look after food, but I never saw any sign on my characters that they are "hungry". Would there be any indicator for that somewhere? Maybe my party is that bad just because they are hungry... (just joking, seriously)

If you have food in your inventory, you'll eat it automatically as needed. If you have no food in your inventory, your fighting effectiveness will eventually start to decline. There doesn't seem to be any kind of indicator, but you'll get a short message the first time it happens.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

I'm already at the point where disruption wands don't do very much damage compared to my attacks. I used up a few charges each on the Crypt Wight and the Cackling Demon, and am basically selling the rest. We'll see how that goes for me.

Um... yeah. I don't think I used any charges on either of those and I was just at the point of thinking I was a chump for hanging on to them so long and that I should just sell them to free up inventory space. And then I hit the undead battle where my fighters were utterly useless and I probably would have died without those wands...

Yeah, for the cheap early spells that you're going to keep using throughout the game, it's not so bad to invest in them if you've got a few hundred coins burning a hole in your pocket. I'd rather go for skills first, though.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

I can always temporarily stick the Samaritan Sandals on my fighters if I want to use them as heal batteries between fights. I haven't really needed to do so up to now, although since I'm kinda running low on energy potions it's probably not the worst idea to start doing it.

The Samaritan Sandals thing is a good point for optimizing, although I find switching gear like that all the time too annoying to bother with. Besides, those Minor Heals (and Cure Poisons) can be very useful in the early game before you get the Samaritan Sandals.

Of course, I'm also terrible for hoarding energy potions for "emergencies" that never actually come. I think I have about 22 right now, and who knows how many energy elixers (I haven't used any of those and won't until I run out of energy potions). I think I probably finished A5 without about a 12-18 unused energy potions and elixers in my inventory. Generally, not an optimal solution. Although, as mentioned above, I ended up really glad I'd been so stingy with the Disruption Wands.

Originally Posted By: Blue Wizard Shot a Potion

So I spent 6041 gold on upgrading spell levels by the time my characters were level 14. That would have covered the cost of training my fighters with Taddeo. Thuryl, how did you earn the 12000 gold needed to buy all the Dharmon blessings?

You know, I'm not exactly sure, but money seems to be a lot easier to come by in this version than in A4 or A5. I had no trouble affording the Dharmon blessings before completing the Great Cave, and I never steal anything but Knowledge Brews. Do all the quests and sell everything you're not actively using.

Originally Posted By: fnl

However, I guess, my party sucks - I did about everything wrong you are writing about, having only one priest, spell-casters with strength and DEX at 3 and 4, etc. etc. (I gave them STR 3 so they could wear more armor, they were often quite badly hurt by range attacks, and the mage draws aggro like nothing with ice rains...).

Well, I kinda disagree with Thuryl on both of these points. I, too, have only one priest. I agree that a second would be really nice, but I don't really find a convenient slot for one in the party. I don't like the dual mage/priest character because I don't find that my mage has the spare mana for casting priest spells, anyway.

And even my mage has Str 5, Dex 5 (and my priest has Str 7, Dex 6 -- but he's also my archer, which is why the high Dex). I agree with you, fnl, on the need for higher strengths so that the spellcasters can wear decent armor. This isn't as important in A6 as it was in the last couple versions, especially A5 where the monsters always completely ignored the fighters and went straight for the priest, no matter what I did (in A5, I actually found that a singleton was easier than a full party, because that way every battle didn't end up with the *#&@ priest getting killed). In A6, they will actually attack my fighters much of the time. But not so much I don't want to give heavy armor to the casters.

EDIT: Of course, anyone who takes my advice over Thuryl's is an idiot.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: fnl

Here's my (miserable, compared to Thuryl's...) party, to complement your post; seems, BTW, just before the first levels up to 9; At least, I got the thing about having STR 3 on my spell-casters wrong, they do have STR 2 only.

• Fighter Polearm
• Fighter Dual Wield
• Priest
• Mage

Apart from having two humans in your party and not picking any traits, your build choices aren't really that bad. (But please tell me your polearm fighter and priest got those points in Melee Weapons from Taddeo and not from skill point investment.) Unfortunately, suboptimal race and trait choices can't really be fixed except by starting over. You can try to soldier on, of course, and the game should still be quite manageable on Normal difficulty with good tactics: it's up to you.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Fael

Of course, I'm also terrible for hoarding energy potions for "emergencies" that never actually come. I think I have about 22 right now, and who knows how many energy elixers (I haven't used any of those and won't until I run out of energy potions). I think I probably finished A5 without about a 12-18 unused energy potions and elixers in my inventory. Generally, not an optimal solution. Although, as mentioned above, I ended up really glad I'd been so stingy with the Disruption Wands.

When I'm thinking of using an item, I ask myself two questions:

1) Is somebody likely to die if I don't use it?
2) Am I far enough into this battle that reloading would be a pain?

If the answer to both questions is yes, I use an item.

I haven't had to dip into my stock of energy elixirs yet, but I'm down to about 4-5 energy potions. It got to the point where I was actually thinking about buying some. Things haven't been getting tight so often since I invested a couple of levels' worth of skill points in Intelligence, though.

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Well, I kinda disagree with Thuryl on both of these points. I, too, have only one priest. I agree that a second would be really nice, but I don't really find a convenient slot for one in the party. I don't like the dual mage/priest character because I don't find that my mage has the spare mana for casting priest spells, anyway.

This has definitely been an issue, especially for major battles, since not only do they last a long time but I start them with expensive spells like Cloak of Blades. For the first few levels, my mage was basically a secondary healer who could cast Haste, Slow, and occasionally Bolt of Fire. Area damage spells are too expensive to start using them heavily until quite some way into the game.

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EDIT: Of course, anyone who takes my advice over Thuryl's is an idiot.

Well, I wouldn't say that. You may have noticed by now, but all the compulsive optimisers on these forums have their own idiosyncrasies. You have to make sure that your strategic choices in party building support the tactics you prefer to use in combat.

[Drayk Armitage]

Wow, that was a lot of posts in one half hour. Snipage.

 

In all fairness, Thuryl is probably the most balanced of all us compulsive optimizers, and his advice is probably the best to follow -- though mine may be more rigorously grounded in theory, or Alorael's more accessible, Thuryl's is probably best.

[Lilith]

It's a pity Delicious Vlish doesn't post much any more. He was always the one who pushed the boundaries of character building and took crazy risks that often paid off. I wouldn't exactly advise newbies to take his advice, but it certainly opened up new avenues of investigation for the more cautious optimisers. I'm basically a fixer, not an innovator: shoulders of giants and all that.

[Randomizer]

Synergy and I counted up and the Demo area has over 20,000 in coins and loot with selling off items that you no longer are using and careful stealing.

 

Money is tight in until the Eastern Gallery, but if you only train in the best skills and come back later for the rest it isn't too bad.

[Alorael at Large]

My optimization isn't accessible. It's just lazy. And my own idiosyncrasy is that I can't use consumable items. Wands, scrolls, potions? Nope. This makes the game rather harder than it should be.

 

As an aside, you can use the editor to fix trait choices, but for races your stuck past character creation. Or you could replace your party entirely, cheat for experience to get back to where you were before, and remake it to taste. Too labor intensive, though.

 

—Alorael, whose refusal to use Knowledge Brews and Wisdom Crystals is probably not helping him much either. He usually gets over it about a chapter after he finds the skill point boosters.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Apart from having two humans in your party and not picking any traits, your build choices aren't really that bad.

Okay, I want to ask about this. I use a very similar party makeup to fnl's, in terms of classes:

FIghter Dual Wield
Fighter Polearm (+Tool Use)
Priest/Archer
Mage

Having a Slith for Polearm Guy and a Nephil for the Archer are no-brainers, but why shouldn't Mage and Melee Guy be Humans? Neither of them are likely to have much use for the racial skills and the extra skill points from the lower experience penalty, even if they're less in absolute value than the free racial skills, can be spent on skills that actually are useful. I mean, sure, the Mage could get a bunch of free Bows and Gymnastics skill by being a Nephil. But wouldn't he be better off having another two or three levels to spend points on Spellcraft, Magical Efficiencey, Intelligence, or Endurance? (Judging by the uniformity of the anti-Human bias among the powergamers, I'm guessing he wouldn't, but I don't quite follow the logic.)

I'm not saying you're wrong -- you guys have crunched the numbers way more than I have. But I need the logic explained to me.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Well, I wouldn't say that. You may have noticed by now, but all the compulsive optimisers on these forums have their own idiosyncrasies. You have to make sure that your strategic choices in party building support the tactics you prefer to use in combat.

Yeah, but you guys all play at Torment. I play at Normal. 'Nuff said.

[Drayk Armitage]

Alorael -- That's not your own idiosyncrasy -- I share it, and I'm pretty sure others do as well.

 

Fael -- Mainly because of battle disciplines, which are incredibly useful for all characters including spellcasters, and which it is drastically easier to get the best of with the racial weapon bonuses.

[Lilith]

Plus, it never hurts to have a bow as a backup weapon, and the free Gymnastics that Nephilim get is pretty handy for making sure you usually go first in combat. But yes, mostly the battle disciplines.

[fnl]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Apart from having two humans in your party and not picking any traits, your build choices aren't really that bad. (But please tell me your polearm fighter and priest got those points in Melee Weapons from Taddeo and not from skill point investment.) Unfortunately, suboptimal race and trait choices can't really be fixed except by starting over. You can try to soldier on, of course, and the game should still be quite manageable on Normal difficulty with good tactics: it's up to you.

OK, I got the idea - and decided to start a new party. However, I am still trying to find the right mix with my personal taste; For main characters, I need a fighter, a mage, and a priest; Secondary would be thief, archer, and another healer. So how about this:

Tank: fighter - Human; Elite Warrior, Divinely Touched (-45% exp)
Wizard: mage/priest - Human; Natural Mage, Pure Spirit (-30% exp)
Healer: priest/archer - Nephil; Pure Spirit, Deadeye (-35% exp)
Ranger: fighter/thief - Slith; Elite Warrior, Nimble Fingers (-43% exp)

And before anybody writes "all divinely touched, no humans," this is just personal taste; I just don't want the uber-pary, and like the mix with all races, no real tactical reasons. And, having EW/DT and NM/PS somewhat balances the human disadvantage. Not _exactly_ your setup, Thuryl, but I guess it might be good enough. Skill-wise I'd then keep more or less to what you posted, again adding a bit of my own choice.

I'll let you know how I fare with this party now (or, at which difficulty level I manage to play this time...)!

[Lilith]

Yeah, that party should be quite viable on Normal. I don't think Nimble Fingers is a great choice, but it's your game. Nobody is going to think less of you for not optimising. I'll be interested to hear how your NM/PS spellcaster goes: I was seriously considering that trait combination for my mage, just because spells are so damn expensive.

[Randomizer]

NM/PS isn't too bad since you get several free levels of mage and priest spells plus magical efficiency ramps up quickly without ever doing anything. Downside is that spellcraft gets expensive fairly quickly since a normal game gives you at least 10 levels of spellcraft from divine touch trait.

 

Divine touch is better than deadeye for a priest/archer since the three free skills you get blademaster (reduced battle discipline fatigue), spellcraft, and sharpshooter all are useful to this character while deadeye only gives you sharpshooter.

 

Still whatever works for you, although you will find that the extra levels don't give you enough skill points to compensate for the free skills.

[Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Synergy and I counted up and the Demo area has over 20,000 in coins and loot with selling off items that you no longer are using and careful stealing.

Money is tight in until the Eastern Gallery, but if you only train in the best skills and come back later for the rest it isn't too bad.

What is the Demo area anyway? I registered immediately.

Also, I'm stunned by the 20,000 value you claim unless the demo extends further than I thought. I've only ever paid for spells, which I credited back to myself, so now I have 10,000, and that includes having stolen from every location in which I can hide or wait for the computer to walk out of view. Does the Demo area include Fort Saffron and the region near the Undead Spiral? Those are the only areas for which I haven't explored or completed missions. THEN it makes a bit more sense.

On second thought, I've also hoarded every single piece of equipment that affords some hostile element resistance as well as every craft ingredient I could find. Should I hold onto the ingredients but sell the elemental resistance equipment? I only equip them for fights in which my characters otherwise get killed instantly.

[Randomizer]

The Demo Area is up to the Western Excavation pylon in the Western Reaches to Almaria going west to east, From the south edge of the map up to Fort Saffron in the north.

 

Some armor pieces that provide resistances can be sold because you have gotten something better. Keep all the herb ingredients and the other items on the list of things to keep especially if it's a quest item.

 

We got the 20,000 because we bought the 12,000 in blessings in Dharmon, some spells, the trainer in Gnass for some Arcane Lore and Nature Lore, and had money left over for when we got to go east of Almaria. This does include opening most of the caches and lots of looting. Synergy is very good at taking things without his crimes being seen.

[VCH]

I had the same problem with buying extra levels for spells, until Thuryl pointed out how bad an idea that is. But in my defense the game text says buying extra levels makes the spells stronger, so how would I know it doesn't really do all that much. It makes perfect sense to use the trainers instead of skill points but up until now I've never had the money to do so. Buying spell levels is a huge drain on coins.

 

That being said Hard is less challenging now that I've started to use the trainers. I may have to up the difficulty to torment.

 

And strength WTF? Doesn't strength increase damage? Why is it less useful than melee weapons or pole weapons skills? I'm starting to think Jeff's in game descriptions of skills etc are there to make life difficult as none of them are as useful as he makes them seem?

 

Oh and did anyone ever find out exactly what luck does in A6?

[Randomizer]

Luck still increases armor and resistances, makes you slightly harder to hit, and increases your chance of being hit. It doesn't seem to have changed from A4.

 

Slarty has shown that strength only increases damage 75% of a level instead of 100% so it's mostly good for wearing heavier armor.

 

Jeff really needs to stop cut and pasting old descriptions from previous games.

[Lilith]

More importantly, Strength doesn't unlock battle disciplines.

[VCH]

Since it's interesting looking at other people's characters, I'm going to post my ~level 18 party. I haven't entered the Eastern Gallery or finished exploring the Abyss. The pics are taken with the douche bag Gladwell who I think I'll have to kill to make me feel better about doing some of his quests.

 

It's a good thing I left a lot of gear lying around in dungeons. Going around for a few hours and picking everything up made trainer use possible.

 

(Note the wasted investment in Strength)

 

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6878/screenshot20091204at123.jpg

 

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6878/screenshot20091204at123.jpg

 

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8265/screenshot20091204at123d.jpg

 

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3729/screenshot20091204at124.jpg

 

 

[Locmaar]

Originally Posted By: Verbose PDN is verboten.

My optimization isn't accessible. It's just lazy. And my own idiosyncrasy is that I can't use consumable items. Wands, scrolls, potions? Nope. This makes the game rather harder than it should be.

There's actually 3 Brew/Elixir types (Armor, Invulnerability and Speed) I tend to keep for the really tough endfights - and then forget about them. Wands and crystals I usually keep and don't use either. Next time through I shall dare to sell them all.

The Knowledge and Wisdom items are always immediately consumed, though.

[Drayk Armitage]

The skill (and spell) descriptions in Jeff's games have been about 80-90% accurate for all games after the original Nethergate. (Not sure how A1-3 fare wrt this, actually.) Unfortunately, 80-90% accurate is not accurate enough, and is at times pretty misleading.

 

As an example, EVERY SINGLE Geneforge game has claimed that creation Dex increases breath attack damage, but it doesn't, creation Str does.

 

Perhaps it would be helpful if I compiled a list of every single effect of every single skill?

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Locmaar

There's actually 3 Brew/Elixir types (Armor, Invulnerability and Speed) I tend to keep for the really tough endfights - and then forget about them. Wands and crystals I usually keep and don't use either. Next time through I shall dare to sell them all.

Yeah, I pretty much did that in A5. And then Chapter 9 turned out to be way easier than Chapter 8. Oops.

Fortunately, I learned from that experience and am now... doing the same thing in A6. We'll see how it works for me this time.

[Lilith]

Meanwhile, I just used up 4 invulnerability potions and 8 speed potions to kill the Portal Demon. I think I've finally kicked the habit of hoarding consumables; being able to buff up to kill enemies that are way beyond your normal ability to defeat is just too much fun. By the endgame you're powerful enough that you don't really need items any more anyway.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Margerine Eclipse

Perhaps it would be helpful if I compiled a list of every single effect of every single skill?

YES!!!

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Meanwhile, I just used up 4 invulnerability potions and 8 speed potions to kill the Portal Demon. I think I've finally kicked the habit of hoarding consumables; being able to buff up to kill enemies that are way beyond your normal ability to defeat is just too much fun. By the endgame you're powerful enough that you don't really need items any more anyway.

Yea I'm starting to use potions wands and scrolls more now too. otherwise they just sit there. What do I need 14 invulnerability potions for by 1/3 thru the game lol. There's obviously more to be had in each new area.

[Randomizer]

Actually you want to save them for key fights: Tower Colony Haakai, Sorengard's 2nd Construct Test, some places near Formello if you want to fight to one of Formello's gates, Nociduas, killing Gladwell, ....

 

Although I wound up with lots of things I never used like armor elixirs.

[Lilith]

Hee hee, Sorengard's second test. Yeah, I don't think the game actually intends you to do that as soon as it becomes available, but with two invulnerability potions it can be done. Even with invulnerability on, it was a challenge to keep my tank alive with the amount of damage he was taking. The reward is worth it, anyway.

[Synergy]

If you do all or most game quests, sell most things like wands, potions, nearly all food and extra gear, power steal the most valuable items in each town, and don't buy hardly anything besides training (no potions, wands, weapons, armor, or extra spell levels beyond the first six or so cheap spells), there is way more than enough money in this game. I had at least 20K coins left over at the end of the game, and I had bought every useful level of training and even spells for each of my four PC's.

 

This includes saving your herbs to craft dozens of knowledge brews.

 

-S-