An insane idea, but...

[Nioca]

Is it possible for the vahnatai of avernum to actually be a long-lost faction of the shapers?

 

Here is my reasoning behind this idea. Both the shapers and the vahnatai are highly dependent on crystals. Most shaper machines and devices used crystals to channel and control power. I remember a quest in Geneforge 2 where you had to fetch a Black Crystal for a shaper living in the mountains. Were these black crystals the forerunners for the vahnatai Purity Crystals?

 

Also, when the vahnatai created the monster plagues to attack Valorim, the alien beasts were the most destructive, and most bizzare of the creatures that attacked. Isn't it possible that these monsters were originally a shaper battle creation that was resurrected?

 

Also, the shapers, according to the Geneforge series, are heading toward an apocolyptic calamity. If this happens, there would be very few traces of the shapers on the surface. This would back up Jeff's claim that the Avernum and Geneforge worlds are not the same.

 

Based on this, I think that the war with the shapers started going south, and they started breaking their own rules and regulations. This caused fighting amongst themselves, and they started grabbing as much power as they could, not considering the consquences. They started making larger and larger creations, and massive machines to destroy each other. Soon, they started shaping themselves to attain further power, maybe giving rise to the Troglodytes and giants, and started violating the natural order of the world.

 

This continued for years, untill either one of the machines or spells reached such destructive power that is literally fractured the two continents, splitting them into the four continents Aizo, Palgrad, Valorim, and Vantanas. Only a few fractured remnents of the human race were left, scattered across the four continents.

 

However, just before the catastrophe, some of the shapers went underground, literally, into what is now Avernum. There, they learned to survive, and slowly evolved into a new race adapted to living in the caves: the vahnatai.

 

Well, that is just my opinion. Any thoughts?

[Kelandon]

That's a fairly standard theory. I can't remember the last time we discussed it, though.

[Alorael at Large]

Avernum and Geneforge are not set in the same universe, do not operate on the same laws, and should not be linked.

 

The likelihood of total extinction of all the breeding creations, especially serviles, seems unlikely (except for drayks, drakons, eyebeasts and gazers?). The appearance of sliths and nephilim seems unlikely when there are already serviles. The Shapers strongly oppose self-shaping, and the vahnatai are not human anymore. Magical cataclysms that change the face of the planet drastically seem like an unnecessarily complex argument. Many ruins are found in Avernum and on the surface, but none of them have any trace of Shapers in them. Priestly magic can't just appear overnight, and Geneforge's magic doesn't have problems with heavy armor. And so on.

 

—Alorael, who is moderately amused by the similarities between vahnatai creationism and shaping.

[Fort]

The only real connection between the shapers and vahnatai in your theory is their shared involvement with crystals. Ignoring that, the worlds are very distinct. If you think about it, crystals a very commonly used type or class of items which can be magical in games and fantasy worlds. It does not surprise me that they are used in both games. After all, would it be more appropriate to use crystals or giant mushrooms for shaping?

[Aoslare]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
That's a fairly standard theory. I can't remember the last time we discussed it, though.

Need I remind everybody what happened the last time we discussed it?

UDDER DESTRUCTION, that's what!

[Dintiradan]

I refuse to believe any of these conspiracy theories until one of them features a vahnatai in a tutu (I'm still trying to figure out why that was the first thing to pop in my head after reading this article).

 

Really, the most likely reason why beings with the power of shaping life exist in both Avernum/Exile and Geneforge is because JV likes the idea of beings with the power of shaping life. After reading the latest Terry Brooks installment, I think that not joining Avernum with Geneforge would be a very good idea.

 

--------------------

See the l0veli lakes

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Alorael:
Avernum and Geneforge are not set in the same universe, do not operate on the same laws, and should not be linked.

Jeff also said there would not be an Avernum 4. We all saw how that turned out. Also, laws can change over time, if they are in the right situation or are manipulated correctly. I can't decide whether I would like it if Avernum and Geneforge turned out to be the same world, just radically different times.

Quote:

The likelihood of total extinction of all the breeding creations, especially serviles, seems unlikely (except for drayks, drakons, eyebeasts and gazers?). The appearance of sliths and nephilim seems unlikely when there are already serviles.

I didn't say total extinction. In fact, I didn't even mention extinction. I just said that only fractured remnents of the human race were scattered across the four continents.
Now that I think about, serviles could actually have evolved into the Troglodyte race, Thahds and/or Battle Alphas into giants. The sliths could have been a new creation made by the Drakons, for infiltration and such. Nephilim could have been the result of shapers attempting to deform an enemy, like Heustess in GF1.

Quote:

The Shapers strongly oppose self-shaping, and the vahnatai are not human anymore.

You're forgetting primal instinct, which no creature is above. If you're life is threatend, there is a 99% chance that you will do anything just to survive. Everything, including humans, will fight to survive, no matter the cost. Saying that the vahnatai aren't human actually does more to back my point, rather then denounce it.

Quote:

Many ruins are found in Avernum and on the surface, but none of them have any trace of Shapers in them.

To our knowledge, that is correct. But how many of these ruins have been discovered that we don't know about?

Quote:

Priestly magic can't just appear overnight

In Geneforge, priestly magic is called Healing magic and Blessing magic.

Quote:

Originally written by Slarty:
Need I remind everybody what happened the last time we discussed it?

UDDER DESTRUCTION, that's what!

The topic got attacked by cows?

[Alorael at Large]

Out of the many, many types of creations that shapers have devised, nearly every single one is missing in Avernum. That's useful beasts like ornks, the ever-common fyora, and many more. Serviles are no longer recognizably present, as troglodytes in no way resemble them beyond being humanoid.

 

In Geneforge, mages are mages. They cast spells that include healing and blessing. Priests are a distinctly different breed in Avernum.

 

The potential existence of ruins from shapers isn't evidence for shapers. Avernum could also be set in some bizarre distant future of Earth, but there's no evidence for that either.

 

—Alorael, who thinks in the end that a link between Geneforge and Avernum can be fabricated, of course. Occam's Razor says no.

[Nioca]

They didn't die out, they evolved. A list of possible changes:

• Fyora -> Fire Lizard
• Cryoa -> Ice Lizard
• Artila -> Wyrmkin, Dark Wyrm
• Servile -> Troglodyte
• Ornk -> Cow
• Turret -> Fungus
• Thahd/Battle Alpha -> Giant
• Roamer -> Hellhound
• Drayk -> Drake
• Cryodrayk -> Ice Drake
• Drakon -> Dragon
• Gazer -> Gazer
• Eyebeast -> Eyebeast

Any of these evolutions are fully possible, given the right amount of time. If my theory is correct, do you think humans would have been able to rebuild everything in a couple months? It would've required decades, or even centuries, to restore order and rebuild. By then, most, if not all, of the shaper knowledge would have been lost.

Also, mages were far more powerful in Geneforge than Avernum. It isn't unreasonable that they could excel in more than one form of magic. Besides, if I recall correctly, there are a few healers throughout the Geneforge series who specialize in healing and blessing magic only.

[Drakefyre]

And you missed out on the most obvious - clawbugs to chitrachs! But convenienty vlish and glaakhs are missing.

[Nioca]

I stand corrected; most of them didn't die out. If you really want to get picky, I failed to include Rotgroths and Rotdihzons too.

 

However, Vlish wouldn't stand a chance against a Gazer, and Glaahks would go down fairly quickly if weren't guided. Besides that, most creations were made sterile. Therefore, some species would die out simply because they couldn't reproduce. Other species would die because of natural selection, and some simply lack any sort of independent survival skills.

 

This would also further hinder human redevelopment.

[Archmagus Micael]

Um, serviles into troglodytes?

 

Isn't that overkill?

 

Besides, what about the Spawners? Wouldn't they have evolved?

 

While it may be fun to try and compare the two worlds, unless JV makes a game that actually does so, this is all meaningless conjecture. Fun, but meaningless.

 

- Archmagus Micael

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmagus Micael:
Besides, what about the Spawners? Wouldn't they have evolved?

Making a spawner that could reproduce itself seems like a pretty bad idea, really.

[Alorael at Large]

Bipedal dinosaurs into quadrupedal lizards? I question that one.

 

I still think serviles have less in common with troglodytes than humans do.

 

I've always thought of chitrachs as insects (giant mantises) and clawbugs as arachnids (giant scorpions). Nothing evolves from one class into another.

 

fungi, shrubs, wyrmkin, and hellhounds were all added to Avernum in A4 mainly as a vehicle for Geneforge graphics. I find them questionable.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks evolution in general is overkill. Unless you are positing hundreds of thousands of years between Geneforge and Avernum, it's not possible. If you are, where are the rayguns?

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmagus Micael:
Um, serviles into troglodytes?

Isn't that overkill?

Not entirely. If you compare their discriptions, they actually have a lot in common. It's out there, but not impossible.

Quote:

Originally written by Alorael:
I've always thought of chitrachs as insects (giant mantises) and clawbugs as arachnids (giant scorpions). Nothing evolves from one class into another.

I think Drakefyre was joking on this one.

Quote:

fungi, shrubs, wyrmkin, and hellhounds were all added to Avernum in A4 mainly as a vehicle for Geneforge graphics. I find them questionable.

Fair point. I do want to point out that I never included shrubs.

What about Artila to Dark Wyrms? They have been in the Avernum series since the beginning.

Quote:

If you are, where are the rayguns?

That's why the Empire is so secretive.

[Fort]

This theory is exactly as valid as mine, which hypothesizes that all of the Spiderweb games take place on Earth, but in different phases a la the mythology of the Aztecs.

[Randomizer]

Actually there is a warped way to link the worlds. Consider the Vahnatai to be descendents of the original inhabitants of Sucia Island. The inhabitants split into two groups following the disaster with the ones following organic manipulation going off to the mainland to be come shapers. The ones that followed traditional inorganic crystal shaping go underground and evolve into the Vahnatai.

 

Now the current war between the Shapers and the drakon rebels destroyed the surface world and ends organic shaping. The surviving creations either die off or evolve into the Avernum monsters. Shaping magic is lost or deliberately forgotten in the aftermath that send technology back towards the Stone Age. Some magic remains among the humans that were far enough away from the fighting like the Sholai.

 

Since the Vahnatai go through resting periods to allow their caves to replenish, several thousands of years have past between the two periods of Geneforge and Avernum.

[Nioca]

Now that's a thought. Actually, it makes more sense than shapers just going underground during the war.

[Igor]

My thoughts on linking GF and Avernum: No to the power of infinity.

[Aoslare]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Jeff also said there would not be an Avernum 4.

I thought he only said that about Exile 4? But perhaps I am mistaken.

[Alorael at Large]

No, he said it about A4 too. He was wrong, of course.

 

—Alorael, who need only point to the SEP to explain all the misinformation and betrayal.

[Nioca]

I don't know about Exile, but he said that he would not make A4 in a review somewhere... I don't know where, though. He also said something about it, of all the weird places to put it, in the A4 instructions.

 

EDIT: One minute slow. Why am I cursed so?!?!?