Drakefyre

After looking over Avernum 4 again (and some of my beta correspondence with Jeff), I agree that Rentar does do more than a lot of people give her credit for. When talking with Ghall-Ihrno (I think) and Rentar, you find out why she lost her support among the Vahnatai - she made herself a crystal soul after teh Olgai Council denied her "immortality". And Jeff says Avernum 4 is 20-30 years after Avernum 3. There is never any specific mention of a gap government between Micah and Houghton, but I assume that there was something, since the Council ruled alongside Micah but is not in existence in Avernum 4. Something happened that we don't know about, whether it was the Council stepping in after Micah, Houghton stepping in after Micah, Chevyn stepping in after Micah (although I doubt it), or something else. EDIT: Happy Kel? That post up there took me 2 hours, and the reason I never gave you evidence before was I never had any of the games installed (besides BoE/BoA) on my computer. But thanks to Slarty's text dumps, I can just search them quickly!

*downloads BoA and Avernum 4* Houghton was regent for Starrus for the past 8-9 years. This comes from Avernum 4 - Starrus was 14 when he became king (Bagli in Fort Draco), and is in his "early twenties" now. Pea Eye says the Second Slith War was "not too many years ago". Captain Matos says he was born right after the Second Slith War. ZKR says the war started a little while after half of the Avernites moved to the surface. Assuming this took about 5 years, that places the beginning of the war around 838 IE. Za-Khazi Run is set in 845 IE. The war lasts longer than this (Pea Eye says he started doing the Run for a while after the adventurers cleared the route). Micah was 76 at the end of Avernum 3 in 833 IE (this is a conservative estimate - it assumes he was 20 when he became King). This is backed up by the history book in Patrick's Tower (for Av1 - 817 IE) saying Micah had been ruling for 40 years. If we assume Starrus was born just after Avernum 3 (since there was no mention of him in the previous 3 games), that puts Avernum 4 at around 855 IE (which is really the earliest it could possibly be). This is important, because there are a lot of really old commanders who we first saw in Exile I or II - Mairwen, Commander Johnson, Houghton, etc., not even counting the mages. The games frequently mention that life expectancies in the caves are shorter than those on the surface, due to the hazardous environment. If we say that Avernum 4 takes place in 860 IE, that could make Captain Matos 22 at the oldest if we assume that he meant he was born not too long after it *started*. It would also mean Starrus was crowned in 851 IE and he was born in 838 IE. When Micah was 81. Not to mention the fact that there's never any queen of Avernum or anything. And to say that Micah lived any longer than that is really stretching it. So I think it's fair to say that Micah was dead for the majority of the Second Slith War.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Second Slith War: Oh... I remember now. How do you know that Micah was already dead at that point? Or is that part of you guys' fan fiction time line? It's set at a time where Houghton was regent for Starrus - only a few years before Avernum 4.

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: Would you buy a computer game where the character was already defined for you and sometimes spoke and acted in ways that you would never do? There's a rather successful series of RPGs called Final Fantasy. You may perhaps have heard of it. Whether you personally like that style of game or not, it's hard to argue with sales figures. I said *computer* game

You forget that the Council ruled Avernum during the Second Slith War. They didn't do a bad job there. And when did I beat Jeff's ideas into the ground? Rentar coming back makes sense but is disappointing. Chevyn being a puppet for the Darkside Loyalists and being accepted as king just doesn't make sense given what we know about Avernum.

Where do you get that from what I said? I said that Avernum would not have *existed* without him. Would it have survived if he had stepped down after creating it? Absolutely. Besides, he was not an absolute ruler. He shared half of the power with the Council of Avernum. This balance shifted after he died - first the Council had all of the power, and then Starrus/Houghton had all of the power. I don't agree that the figurehead and virtuous leader are interchangeable. It worked with Starrus as a figurehead, but it wouldn't with Chevyn. Anyone could visit the Castle to make a claim or request, and Chevyn wandered around the halls telling anyone who'd listen about how he'd make his lizard his prince after he became king.

Avernum ended up with a monarchy because MICAH MADE AVERNUM. Micah was a warrior who united the people who had been Exiled and created the nation.

Serviles can get magical powers through self-flagellation.

I'm not talking about how it was done, I'm talking about fundamental things about the world of Avernum. Like this: Quote: I also assume that Chevyn's ineptitude, while well known by Castle officials, was kept largely from the public. This just simply isn't true. Pretty much everyone knew Chevyn was a simpleton. The games state this. Chevyn masterminding a revolt would be extremely suspicious. Just because someone isn't a murderer or rapist (the people in the Abyss) doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. There are plenty of surface revolutionaries in Avernum. They may not all be physically dangerous, but dangerous to the society supported by the Empire, certainly.

I don't think that you can shape Ur-Drakons in Geneforge 3.

Roses of Reckoning is not good in the BoE or BoA version. There are many scenarios that are much better for both. Tullegolar, I think you're not giving the people of Avernum enough credit. They were obviously dangerous enough to warrant being Exiled, and they are hardy enough to survive in the caves. And no, I don't like the idea of Chevyn being a puppet king controlled by the Darkside Loyalists - how would that even happen? When it was his turn to rule, nobody, NOT EVEN MICAH, would have allowed it. That's why the Council of Avernum ruled until Houghton made everyone accept Starrus as king. If anything, Houghton is your puppetmaster, despite being a loyal servant to Micah and Avernum for decades. EDIT: I think you're letting your imagination run wild and are now contradicting things explicitly stated and referenced in the games. The Avernum you're talking about and one I know seem to be different places. Also, I think that book villain and computer game villains are different. In books, people often end up having inner demons and a lot of self-conflict. This doesn't work for a computer game where the user creates their own character. It works for scenarios, which are shorter adventurers that come for free. But a "commercial" (I'm using this term loosely) game can't do that with the same freedom. Would you buy a computer game where the character was already defined for you and sometimes spoke and acted in ways that you would never do? The same applies for villains. In books authors can define exactly what everyone does. In any good computer game the user will be able to change things and impact events. The programmers will have to account for every possible action of the player. Although it seems backwards, there's a lot less flexibility in a computer game.

And Geneforge proves that you can defeat villains without killing them and the game doesn't suffer.

I'm pretty sure it's said that they were discovered when the Empire was scouting out where to deploy troops and where to build the teleporter, all of which happened after Hawthorne's assassination.

Micah became king because he united the people in the caves and he created the Kingdom of Avernum. He was allowed to keep his kingdom because he stayed out of everyone's business and kept the monsters away and helped Avernum stay running smoothly. If he tried to overstep his boundaries, I think he'd quickly be reeled back in. The people of Avernum were very wary of falling under a new Emperor in a new Empire. The mayors ARE NOT an aristocracy. They are administrators who run the city, not people who sit back and rake in money. People look to them for guidance, but only because they control the city's militia and spending. I don't think the people would waste a second in pulling down a mayor either. The people of Avernum are not inclined to support a hereditary monarchical system - they recognize that that was what caused the Empire to degenerate into what it was.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: While I would like to believe Avernum would rise up against an incompetent ruler, I am fairly certain this doesn't happen in feudal systems, ever. The people are generally kept ignorant of their monarch, and they do what their local lords, in this case the mayors, tell them to do. Throughout human history, the only time that feudal monarchs are ever overthrown is when they anger the nobles. And nobles, my friend, can be bought! It don't think it would be difficult at all to put a puppet king on the throne of Avernum. It would take the proper propaganda for the troops, however. "Hail Chevyn, the rightful king!" Hey, that warcry almost rhymes! Avernum is not a feudal system. There are no nobles. There are no serfs. Mayors are not nobles - the people choose their mayors. And the mayors of the six largest cities sit on the Council of Avernum. I'd like to think that almost all of the people in Exile are limited-government supporters. As long as the government keeps people safe and doesn't bother them, they don't really care who's in charge.

Nobody wants Chevyn to rule. Even Micah admits that he's unfit. Having him be King would be absolutely disastrous for Avernum, which is why the Council took over while Houghton was grooming Starrus.

Well, parts of that are obvious exaggerations - the glowing moss is Vahnatai, Erika did cavewood trees, etc. But I agree - she has been down for a long time.

The way we've reconciled Chevyn with A4 is by saying that Micah served until 836, when Chevyn was supposed to be king but instead the Council of Avernum stepped in and ran things. When Starrus, Micah's next son, reached 13, he was appointed King by Houghton and Crown supporters, with Houghton acting like regent (like Garzahd for Prazac, but not evil) and disbanding the Council. And that's where we stand at the start of A4. And I'm not really sure how democractic it would be, but it's the point of group rule vs. a single monarch. Despite the fact that Micah was an extremely good king and Avernum would certainly be worse off if he hadn't been king.

I don't like Dorikas, I like the Darkside Loyalists. Rentar doesn't need to be a main villain because *we already beat her*. Now she's just a deranged psycho with no real support, and her role in the story should reflect that. If she even appears at all. As for an Avernum civil war, I don't think it should be between Houghton and Starrus supporters - nobody really supports Houghton (who is not related to Starrus or Micah at all). It would be between supporters of the Council of Avernum (which Houghton made Starrus disband) and supporters of Starrus. Basically democracy vs. monarchy.

I agree with you about Avernum 3, Zorro, but Exile III for me was completely different. I replayed Exile III the most of any spidweb game. It was absolutely amazing and so easy to play, the gameplay was great, and surface gave me the freedom to do whatever I wanted and a huge world to explore. So far, Geneforge 4 is looking good. For me, the biggest part of whether or not I like a game is how much fun it is. How do I measure fun? How long I can play straight without getting bored. How many times I can play the game without getting bored. Whether I want to know what happens next in the story. Exile III gave me the first two long after the third expired. BoE gives me all three. *moves to General*

The Empire discovered the Vahnatai and made a pact with Gaddika, who agreed to help them steal some crystal souls so the Empire could learn about crystal magic and Vahnatai secrets.

Exile III has Linda in the Five. Avernum 1 has Linda fighting Grah-Hoth.

Prazac was in her early teens during Exile II - I want to say 12. Micah was around 65 at the time of Exile II (and presumably had Rone's help in staying alive). Patrick was very old but around in 823, and he died a few years later. Linda was Exiled with the Five, and she helped take down the sliths and Grah-Hoth in 779. Okay, Linda was part of the Five. So was Aimee. That makes them Six. Which was why we removed Aimee because she wasn't involved in the founding of Avernum. So back to what it was before!

Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Why, in A4, is she attacking Avernum? The Empire stole the crystal souls. Apparently her desire is to kill all humans for the errors of just a few. This makes her, again, a simple cartoon villain. I thought this was fairly obvious - Avernite adventurers foiled her plot for revenge on the Empire. Now she's getting revenge on them for stopping her initial revenge.

I'm pretty sure you can sneak past the one in Almaria - stick to the north and go down into the sewers.